Aspects of Dragonball Fandom that Piss You Off

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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Acid_Reign
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Post by Acid_Reign » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:26 am

The thing that pisses me off most about the fandom is its current inability to demand a proper U.S. release of the series.

Yes, I'm talking about the Season Sets, those dreaded things that people are actually scared to talk about now because they stir up so much resentment. Frankly, I'm disappointed they're as polarizing as they are. The current contentment among fans with a mediocre product really bothers me; it's as if they don't actually care enough about the series to really want nor expect a better treatment for it.

I was initially excited to hear about these new DVDs (I had been out of touch with the DBZ fandom for quite some time at this point, and word of a new product served as a re-initiation of sorts), but when I heard about how they had been remastered in "widescreen" format, I was immediately skeptical. Knowing full-well that this was a TV series that began in the 80s, I wondered if it was really possible to present it in this way without stretching, cropping, or otherwise altering the original. Maybe there was more on the sides? I decided to do some investigation.

Well, my curiosity ultimately led me here, where I stumbled upon a thread in which Corey was discussing the edits made, what FUNimation was saying vs. what they were actually doing, and putting up comparative screencaps so anyone could plainly see what was going on. I was very impressed, not only with the quality of this work, but that there were still even Dragon Ball fans out there, and that they weren't taking any shit.

This was really the deciding factor in my registration here, as it was very reminiscent of the golden days of Dragon Ball Z fandom. Myself introduced to the series through the dub, it was not until coming across Chris Psaros' DBZ:Uncensored page one day, that I was introduced to a (notably lengthier and more graphic) presentation of the show that I never even knew existed. This really opened up my eyes, and as a fan I felt disappointed and cheated that I was getting a parred-down version of the best (and only) animé I had seen since Pokémon.

I felt it was my duty to inform anyone willing to listen about the changes that had been made, and that the series was actually a lot better than what we were getting. I connected a great deal with the ideology of sites like the Dragon Ball Z Otaku Alliance, as here was a group of fans that, even after the shut down of DBZ:U, were still demanding better treatment of the show.

It was through sites like these, and the people dedicated to their respective mission statements, that DBZ was rescued from the depths of HFIL as it started getting less absurd edits, uncut releases, and even bilingual DVDs. None of these things ever would have happened if there weren't an appropriate demand from the fans.

Of course, we never got everything we ever wanted. The English dialogue was still less-than-stellar, and we wouldn't get the Japanese Background Music for a while, but since it was finally available visually unedited and in Japanese, the focus shifted to other dubs as it seemed that there was nothing left to fight for.

That is, until we got screwed with the UUE line discontinuation, but by that time it didn't seem like enough to cause a lot of commotion about; it mainly became a thorn in everyone's side as a lot of us waited around for the eventual reissue, which would hopefully be a lot better.

But its replacement was, and is in fact, much much worse. Of course, one could never tell this from the description, touting its "film master" scan source, accurate colors, frame-by-frame restoration process, 1080p HD, and more visible screen area… irony at its best, in lieu of the fact that not ONE of these things actually turned out to be true—the film was not a master copy and actually damaged in some areas; the colors, although not as washed out as in previous releases, were still way off from the original; the restoration was completely automated and resulted in what otherwise would have been completely-avoidable detail loss; it wasn't HD at all and actually had a 2.25× smaller resolution than advertised; and although there was a slight gain in screen area on the left and right, the top and bottom were both cut rendering 25% of the original, previously-present picture missing!

It is absolutely baffling, given Dragon Ball Z's long drudge through the mud, and its history of dedicated fans pulling it up from there, that anyone could ever accept these releases as sufficient to what we deserve. If this kind of a stunt were pulled on us 10 years ago, it wouldn't have been swept under the rug the way it has been today. But in the anticlimax of its original wave of U.S. popularity, the fans have become very accepting of what is a very shoddy DVD release, whether anyone wants to admit that or not.

The major defenses for supporting the Orange Boxes are pathetic at best, the most prominent of which being "Well, it's cheap." Of COURSE it's cheap; it's because not a lot of effort was put into it and by pricing a popular franchise cheaply it ensures a large heap of profit. This isn't to say that profit is bad, or that cheaper DVDs weren't a major concern for us (considering how much they were charging for 3-episode-per-disc iterations before), but the point that has been made so often and bears repeating is that a low price does not justify the purchase of a shitty product. It's as simple as that. By buying something that does not meet our—the fans, and ultimately the very consumers these products are aimed at—very reasonable quality expectations, you are fueling the business practices that make stuff like this happen in the first place. "Uncut" is a huge misnomer for this release, as it is quite literally a butchering of the show.

We all recognize the urge to finally own the complete series, but the very least anyone can do is hold out until something better is in place. It was a long time coming simply getting to this point, but if most of us can go a decade without owning Dragon Ball Z, we can certainly wait however long is necessary to make an effectual statement.

"There will probably never be another U.S. release; this is the best we'll be able to do," seems to be the prevalent attitude, which is very defeatist and makes absolutely no sense to me. By merely accepting that there will never be another U.S. release (which no one knows for sure, as the Broly Blu-ray discs just came out and we can reasonably assume the current masters, however shitty they may be, are 1080p) you are ensuring that there will never be one; or at least, never a decent one. It sends the message that fans are ignorant and/or do not care about the quality of the release, so if FUNimation knows they can still make money off of a half-assed attempt they will never again put their backs into anything DBZ-related.

If you are adamant about this belief, or simply can't wait any longer for another release, there's always the Dragon Boxes, which (although Japanese-only) are here already. "But I can't afford the Dragon Boxes," is often the response, or: "I'll never be able to find them." The Dragon Boxes, albeit rare, are still purchasable like any other commodity, so if one can not afford them at a certain point in time one needs only to save up until one can. If, however, it seems too extravagant to track down and import them all, the singles are much more easily-obtained, so if the Japanese discs are the only other alternative for you, it is still within the realm of possibility to attain them.

Then of course we are brought to the dub fans, whom I personally have nothing against. I am a "dub fan" in a modest sense as that's what I was introduced to, and there are some very funny and/or nostalgic moments in it for me. But this needn't force a blind eye to all of the sets' other faults, as any future presentation—preferably with the correct aspect ratio, colors, and a decent encode—could be played with the same Stereo and 5.1 mixes found on the current discs. Understandable as it is, wanting to own the latest English version is still a very weak excuse excuse for settling for so much compromise.

And that's exactly what this is: settling. The final and most vexing argument is that a person simply "doesn't care about" the missing 25%; that nothing is "going on there" anyway (save, oh I don't know, the top of people's heads?). This is simply the lazy fan's answer to blaringly obvious problems: ignorance. By downplaying an issue or pretending it doesn't exist, that person no longer has to deal with it and is then free to point the finger at everyone else for "overreacting" or being "videophiles." Now, I know everyone has their own tastes and priorities when it comes to personal viewing experiences, but something I think we can all agree on is that we would prefer to have more picture than less picture if given the option; no?

Would we also not prefer it if outlines did not disappear, rather than disappear, on random frames… even if they only disappear during brief interludes?

Would it not be easier, as well, to have a DVD with (at least fairly) accurate colors when shipping, so we do not have to fiddle with them ourselves in order to try and match what they should have looked like in the first place?

Would it be too much to ask for an animé licensing company, with plenty of years experience and a proven track record for nearly every other title they've done, to treat the fans of its earliest property, who have been with it the longest, with a little respect and not consistently lie to them about the nature of their product, even when they are caught lying red-handed?

We deserve better. There is no legitimate reason not to be behind a correctly-done DBZ release. Fans, ourselves included, have accomplished great things for the properties they love in the past… the prevalence of non-Pan&Scan'd, anamorphic films on DVD in virtually every other video market is testament to that. And yet, when I look around on the Internet, the sets have gotten rave reviews on pretty much every major site that's done an article on them. People buying into the hype defend it to the death on YouTube. It's become a top-seller for animé DVDs on Amazon. Even on this board, I see people saying they actually like these things, that they actually look better than other releases. Really? Have our standards sunk so low that we can't even admit to ourselves that we're getting a raw deal? We're supposed to be the fans that know better. The sets are up to "Season Four" and still going strong. None of this should be the case.

What it all basically boils down to is: we haven't done anything about it. Let's recap, shall we?

What we did:
  • Talked to FUNi represenatives
  • Petitioned against them
  • Argued amongst ourselves
None of this was particularly productive. FUNimation addressed fan concerns with more coverups; a few petitions were sent in but they likely all ended up in the garbage bin; and here at home base a bunch of threads got locked. After that we gave up. Not good enough.

What we should have done:
  • Raised awareness - Since FUNi demonstrated to us that they wouldn't take our concerns seriously, the most effective strategy is not to talk to them, but talk to the fans. Let them know exactly what's going on. This easily could have been accomplished with a web site—there is no DBZ:U for the current generation. Links to this site could be posted any and everywhere that there is likely to be confusion about the sets.
  • Petitioned en masse - When the FUNi rep told us a petition might change some minds, what she most likely meant was a lot of fucking petitions. The ones we did send in were only people from this board, and a few of us at that. If we really wanted to make an impact we'd have to send in hundreds if not thousands of letters, so that they would be impossible to ignore. This would have to be a large-scale, inter-site effort.
  • Boycotted the sets - If a business statement is to be made, it should be made in the language most businesses understand: money. Rather than caving in and doling out the cash for these because of the pricetag, we should have shown some restraint and gotten others to follow in our footsteps. If we never allowed the discs to become the hotcakes that they are, we'd send a message to FUNi that we aren't going to settle for less than what we deserve.
All of these things are still possible, and I'm sure together we can think of many more creative solutions. I personally would be more than pleased to head the development of an informative web site, if someone would be so courteous as to host it. Although we're deep into the Seasons already and FUNimation probably intends to follow through to the end regardless of what happens, if we can do anything we can at the very least let other fans out there know about the stunt being pulled on them and their wallets, and actually put up a legitimate fight before throwing in the towel entirely. I think a combined effort on this front is not only worthwhile, but our duty considering just how goddamn much we know and love about DBZ, and especially considering our long history as faithful followers.
Last edited by Acid_Reign on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by Herms » Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:48 am

I concur.

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Post by Nikkolas » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:48 am

I'll never get used to or like the unnecessary hate for the English dub but what I'm encountering a lot now is something even more perplexing...hate for the English music.
I know it's not the music used in the original anime in Japan but...who cares? The music in the dub is topnotch and fits the characters and, for me, really helped to set the atmosphere in many a bit moment.
Everything from Gohan's "snap" and him becoming SS2 to less significant scenes like Super Buu being bor and flying off to the Lookout were made that much cooler because of the soundtrack.

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Post by Vekurotto » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:15 pm

Nikkolas wrote:I know it's not the music used in the original anime in Japan but...who cares?
Because it didn't have to be changed in the first place. :wink:
Be grateful the filler in Dragon Ball doesn't suck like the 3rd arc of Rurouni Kenshin.

[size=59][quote="Onikage725"]Anakin: I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating…hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me…what can I do? I will do anything you ask. If you are suffering as much as I am, please, tell me.

Me: YES! Please shut the fuck up!![/quote][/size]

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Post by Super Sonic » Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:52 pm

Vekurotto wrote:
Nikkolas wrote:I know it's not the music used in the original anime in Japan but...who cares?
Because it didn't have to be changed in the first place. :wink:
Sometimes when it happens it can be better in some other anime.

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Post by Vekurotto » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:06 pm

Super Sonic wrote:
Vekurotto wrote:
Nikkolas wrote:I know it's not the music used in the original anime in Japan but...who cares?
Because it didn't have to be changed in the first place. :wink:
Sometimes when it happens it can be better in some other anime.
Don't know how that can happen. I've seen Digimon, Sailor Moon, One Piece, Pokemon, and DBZ and out of all those titles the original music turns out to be much better than the dub music.
Be grateful the filler in Dragon Ball doesn't suck like the 3rd arc of Rurouni Kenshin.

[size=59][quote="Onikage725"]Anakin: I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating…hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me…what can I do? I will do anything you ask. If you are suffering as much as I am, please, tell me.

Me: YES! Please shut the fuck up!![/quote][/size]

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Post by Super Sonic » Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:47 pm

I said sometimes. Personally I preferred Sailor Moon's dub music when she transformed in season 1 to the Japanese music and the last ep of R I love "Power of Love" over what they played in the Japanese version. And from what I've seen of "Go Lion", I really prefer Voltron's music.

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Post by Vekurotto » Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:36 pm

^ I guess you could call me lucky since I've never seen things like Robotech, Voltron, Battle of the Planets/G-force or anything else where they've americanized or replaced musical tracks. I haven't seen much of dub Sailor Moon either because it's just POS to me since I've seen the original but I don't like the dub music there either mostly because it was replaced and that other times it's just unfitting.

Either way to each his own but I at least have never preferred replacement music to the original music in any circumstance be it anime, video games, movies, anything.
Be grateful the filler in Dragon Ball doesn't suck like the 3rd arc of Rurouni Kenshin.

[size=59][quote="Onikage725"]Anakin: I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating…hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me…what can I do? I will do anything you ask. If you are suffering as much as I am, please, tell me.

Me: YES! Please shut the fuck up!![/quote][/size]

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Post by Sebastian (SB) » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:46 am

Acid_Reign wrote:*everything*
I concur as well.
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Post by LegendarySSJ7 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:25 am

To be forthright, I feel it's more that the outward presence of Dragonball to the public at large equates to "OMG BIG GUYS HITTING OVER ONE TO THE OTHER AND SUPER SAIYANS" when they've had under-exposure to the Japanese version, earlier Dragonball (during Piccolo Daimao's reign and before, all the way to the Freeza Saga Arc), and the Manga, in that people know it probably best by the less pleasant personifications of the dub and the "pwning fighting" portions of the post-Freeza Saga Arc events, that are being accentuated and stressed here. Then again, it's also due to the Anime. Though I will concede that if there's a fatal flaw of Dragonball, it's that there's not enough room for growth in power when feats randomly are made for characters who, therefore, lack breathing space. But I'm not trying to trounce it or offer any hidden threat. I'm not saying I don't like the later portions at all, just that the way it tends to be advertised in America =/= the way the public sees it, which is why many thusly discard it. But there are those who just don't like it and are of a divergent opinion. I'm okay with that. Far be it from me to let that go to my chagrin.

Just knowing I and select others enjoy it and see the better greats of it is enough for me.
Last edited by LegendarySSJ7 on Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rocketman » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:45 am

LegendarySSJ7 wrote:the Japanese version
Dude, the problem is in the anime itself. Japanese, English, or !Kung, anything with the signal-to-noise ratio of DBZ is going to get the hell mocked out of it.

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Post by Brakus » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:48 am

Acid_Reign wrote:
tl;dr
The fans might have some say in how a title is released in the United States, but the final decisions rest with the Japanese licensors. They can mandate changes to the product before it's released in R1.

I'm not trying to minimize the Herculean effort (oh, excuse me -- Mr. Satanic effort ;-)) you've done in your quest to get Dragonball released properly in the States. It's just that once again we have some fans that can't see the forest for the trees. You can ask for the most perfect way to have whatever anime series you want in the States. However, you will practically always be at the mercy of the Japanese licensors of the series.

That being said, I'm glad that most stateside anime companies nowadays do take into account fan input for their upcoming anime releases, and that the Japanese are slowly warming up to the fact that maybe, just maybe the fans might be on to something in how anime should be released in R1.
Last edited by Brakus on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Brakus » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:55 am

I'm sure it's already been said, but I don't like how some anime fans will put down Dragon Ball Z for no apparent reason, especially if all they've seen are some really poor DBZ AMVs.

I speak from experience. I used to hate -- HATE -- Dragon Ball Z until I discovered Daizenshuu EX. I have now come to appreciate a lot of aspects of Dragon ball and Dragon Ball Z. I now have some people actually telling me that *I'm* a big DBZ fan. That's totally weird considering I'm not at the level of Mike, Meri, and Julian; I do like to call them my "mentors" considering I've learned a lot from those three.

Some people can't be enlightened about DBZ no matter what you do to convince them. Now that's sad.
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Post by Rocketman » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:39 pm

Stuck-up original fans. For example, the guy who did the DBZ Uncensored site. Damn funny stuff a lot of the time, and he had good points. Until he went on a rant about Freeza's "no-one's hit me like that since my parents" (or however that line went) because it was ANOTHER CASE OF DA EEVIL FUNI CHANGING CHARACTERS ARGHARGARGHA Image oh wait that was in the original :oops: .

Or when he complained about the editing of the first episode because it began with Raditz crashing to Earth instead of spending half an hour with Gohan in a forest. Huh, I wonder what else starts with Raditz crashing to Earth and does not include Gohan's Forest "Adventures". Oh right, the manga.

Or when some people think I should drop a couple thousand bucks to get fucking DVDs in a language I don't know and never intend to learn because... uh... it'll allow me to pole-vault with my dick or something.

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Post by SonEric84 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:48 pm

Rocketman wrote:Or when some people think I should drop a couple thousand bucks to get fucking DVDs in a language I don't know and never intend to learn because... uh... it'll allow me to pole-vault with my dick or something.

I knew there was one bonus to the Dragon Boxes that I was forgetting about. :P
Trans rights, now!

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Post by VegettoEX » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:12 pm

Watch it, folks. I will absolutely not tolerate personal attacks and asinine attitudes towards peers. Keep in mind how much of a miracle it is that this thread is still open.
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Post by Brakus » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:02 am

VegettoEX wrote:Watch it, folks. I will absolutely not tolerate personal attacks and asinine attitudes towards peers. Keep in mind how much of a miracle it is that this thread is still open.
Now you're talkin', VegettoEX. There's something that gets my goat: people still bashing VegettoEX in 2008. That was *so* ten years ago, folks.....

Let's behave now, guys, I know we can do it....
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Post by Castor Troy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:19 am

I could write a novel on what pisses me off about the fandom, but I think I'll just leave it at that.

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Post by Super Sonic » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:58 am

Kind of what makes me mad at anime fandoms as a whole, elitist guys who are Japanophiles and thus badmouth everything English.

Also, guys who badmouth things that happen in anime dubs including DB's but hypocritically ignore when it happens to American cartoons. For example, some guys who will say "So-and-so is a horrible actor/actress. I can recognize him/her in anything". Now I can spot Rob Paulson and Kath Soucie in pretty much everything they do and I wouldn't call them bad, and no else does either.

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Post by caejones » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:11 am

While I agree with most of the above post... "Japanophile" is pretty much an elitist term that dubbies use on fans of Japanese material. So as always, we come full circle.
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