Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:46 pm

Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
ABED wrote: Where in DB was it ever established 16 was made in the image of Dr. Gero's son? Making 16 designed in the image of his son isn't depth. It's hacky.
In one of many Toriyama's interviews post DB ending.
Didn’t he first say that in 2014?

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by TheMikado » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:56 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Robo4900 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: I’m not sure if you understood what I said, but since “death of the author” is a theory, people are not obligated to dismiss what is not in the original work. The owners decide whatever they want about their products, including expanding-lore-stuff, and they have the law to back them up.
It's nothing to do with the law. It 100% only applies to media criticism. I guess if someone else is writing a work in a universe previously written by another writer, it applies, but again, the law doesn't enter into it there, either.
I don't know in which country you lives, but in Brazil we have a copyright law (9610/98) that includes in one of its articles the moral right of "modifying the work, before or after use". It also establishes moral rights can't be waived or transmited. This concretizes what Foucault told some decades ago about mechanism of power associated with the exercise of the author-function.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:DUH. Hugo Boss. It goes without saying. Who owns the work isnt at question here. Its the author. Nobody would confuse the two. This is about PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.
Author and work don't need to be viewed as two different things, but rather part of the same process, since one can't exist without the other.
I’ll just make this more cut and dry, a way of looking at death of the author as a theory also transfers interpretation to the reader rather than what the autho explicity states, especially pertaining to specific text. To look at it another way:

Person watches the first Star Wars movie in isolation and decides or has not watched the remaining sequels. The viewer assumes that Leia and Luke may be romantically involved without knowing they are siblings. They are entitled, as the intended audience to view that work in isolation however they choose without sequels or paratext as the work is made to be shared to an audience, the viewer being part of that audience. The authors intent was to convey in that film the idea of a romantic connection and the audience accepted it. They aren’t obligated to read the expanded universe, the sequels, or read Lucas’s interviews. They can enjoy the work as a single work separate from any attachments by the author.

How this ties back to Toriyama is that we as the audience can accept whatever part of the text the author wanted to convey and have no obligation to accept new information from the original author and further have every right to feel that new information from the author could ruin a text. Thus we kill the author by separating the text from any authority of the author. Essentially Toriyamas actually original work was completed back when it was first handed to its audience as a “completed” work and thus perception of that work in isolation would be also be a valid interpretation and we aren’t required to view anything else beyond that as part of the original work. It’s all just theory but it definitely applies here and should probably be its own thread by itself.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:59 pm

ABED wrote:But the work isn't an appendage. You can separate the work from the author. While it's certainly interesting to hear/read storytellers expand on their story, if it's not in the text or even alluded to in some way, it can easily beSure dismissed if you so choose.
Sure, but the point is not "you can't dismiss addtions to the original work", but rather "you can accept those additions if you want". Laws only reinforce the creative rights over the discourse the author is trying to transmit.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:There are no laws forbidding imagination arent there?
Of course, but I didn't say that? Read the reply above.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by TheMikado » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:02 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
ABED wrote: Where in DB was it ever established 16 was made in the image of Dr. Gero's son? Making 16 designed in the image of his son isn't depth. It's hacky.
In one of many Toriyama's interviews post DB ending.
Didn’t he first say that in 2014?
And this is a good example of paratext where “Word of God” authorship comes into play. I’m not saying it’s bad or good, just that it’s taking author privilege by throwing out lore tidbits post work. I personally think it’s ok in small doses, but doing it too liberally without putting the effort to incorporate it into text ends up making your well crafted story begin to look like an off the cuff brainstorming session that you usually see in the infant stages of a work before the plot is fully formed.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:04 pm

They are entitled to do so, but if they thought that, it would be based on incomplete information as they haven't watched the subsequent movies. In this case, it's not a valid interpretation. It's not an interpretation so much as a guess.

I don't like retcons, but being a retcon isn't axiomatically bad. It might even be superior to the original event, plot point, etc. However, the more retcons, the weaker the story. It's not playing fair with the audience.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:16 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
ABED wrote:But the work isn't an appendage. You can separate the work from the author. While it's certainly interesting to hear/read storytellers expand on their story, if it's not in the text or even alluded to in some way, it can easily beSure dismissed if you so choose.
Sure, but the point is not "you can't dismiss addtions to the original work", but rather "you can accept those additions if you want". Laws only reinforce the creative rights over the discourse the author is trying to transmit.
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:There are no laws forbidding imagination arent there?
Of course, but I didn't say that? Read the reply above.

I'm glad we are on the same page then.
Last edited by Cure Dragon 255 on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:42 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:There are no laws forbidding imagination arent there?
Of course, but I didn't say that? Read the reply above.
Yes, you did I'm glad we are on the same page then.
That’s not really what I said and it’s absurd. Copyright laws are the most common mechanism of power that can be associated with author-function, which allows for example altering the lore, but they are not supposed to forbid imagination or rather interpretation. That’s your prerrogative as the reader. You can choose to abide to the original work or embrace further additions.

Edit: Alright. I misunderstood you. See? I prefer this version of yourself.
Last edited by Hugo Boss on Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:51 pm

Um...yes? I agreed with you. What you said is true. I didnt argue this time.

EDIT: OH! I didnt mean to say you said that. I meant to say I agreed. I dont know why I said that you said something else. Sorry.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Tavarano » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:02 am

ABED wrote:
it's a story about a teenage girl getting sexually abused with everyone having fun with it
What the hell? This statement among many others leads me to believe you really have no fundamental understanding about Dragon Ball.

That was metaphorical, what I wanted to convey is that DB isn't some great wuxia epic like you seem to believe, it's not what Toriyama was ever writing and you're giving the man too much credit, you know what he said in his latest message to fans? "For me personally, the work "Dragon Ball" is nothing but fighting.", when you understand Toriyama and his style you can easily see why he doesn't care about retcons or the story in DB, for him it's just a bunch of gags not to be taken seriously, with fighting sprinkled on top.
ABED wrote:He never said he likes to poison his audience.
He did imply it several times, as I said, the common denominator of everything that Toriyama writes is characters acting oblivious in face of actions that would have severe consequences in real world, rape, genocide, murder, abandoning family, sexual abuse are all free of consequences actions in Toriyama's works, his characters in-universe do not respond realistically to those and many other things, everything is normalized which is I'm pretty sure what Toriyama means by his poison.

When the series was being made into an anime, did you give the anime staff any demands?
AT: I intended to leave everything up to them, so I don’t think there was anything in particular. Only, after a while, I felt they were going too far in a wholesome direction, and that time alone, I warned them.

AT: Right. There’s how, basically, Son Goku from Dragon Ball doesn’t fight for the sake of others, but because he wants to fight against strong guys. So once Dragon Ball got animated, at any rate, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the “righteous hero”-type portrayal they gave him. I guess I couldn’t quite get them to grasp the elements of "poison" that slip in and out of sight among the shadows.

AT: Also, this is often misunderstood, but I’m not good with wholesome content. It may seem wholesome at first glance, but there's actually poison inside.

Also within modern DB content, Toriyama more or less tried to make Goku and Gohan as toxic and unrelatable as possible - he never intended for them to be seen as positive characters, especially not role model type characters, which is what I was getting at with difference between old school Toei's direction and Toriyama's in one of my previous posts.


ABED wrote:Your gigantic rants go on and on and your only justification for enjoying it is the music and atmosphere, but the stories apparently have no payoffs, people don't react realistically, and you don't like the themes. So basically you dislike it except for a few minor things and want to join a fan forum dedicated to discussing this series. Why? What are you getting from this? I don't mean to derail this thread but it bugs me since every once in a while we get someone on this forum that hates the series and does nothing but knock it in every single one of their posts. Constructive criticism is welcome, but bashing it is a whole other issue.
I see nothing wrong with my criticism, It's not like I say "DB sux, come at me bro", it's still something I would have advised someone to watch if they asked me.
Akira Toriyama wrote:As a rule, there is no such thing as a theme in my work.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:39 am

He did imply it several times
I don't recall him ever saying he likes to poison the audience. The only thing I ever recall him saying is that Goku doesn't fight because he's a righteous hero. He fights for the sake of the fight against the strongest opponents he can, i.e. he's not a superhero. He's not "poisoning" the audience.

How the hell is that a metaphor?
DB isn't some great wuxia epic like you seem to believe
That's your inference. I didn't say it was a great epic, but it is an overall good, entertaining story.

The characters don't have to be role models, they just have to be interesting.
I see nothing wrong with my criticism
Of course you dont'. You wrote it. I do however see something wrong with someone hating on the series in a fan forum and offering little to nothing about what they like or why they want to discuss it in said fan forum. In other words, what makes you a fan of Dragon Ball?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Tavarano » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:05 am

I already said that I still like DB and DBZ as shows, regardless of what I think is wrong with them, besides I might just like to analyze things. I think I explained well enough the concept of poison in Toriyama's writing, you didn't add anything to the argument, and Goku is a poisonous character, in a way that no matter what action he takes, he will never learn, he will be treated by his friends like a good guy and painted by the story as a hero. In that very interview that you say you remember, Toriyama mentioned poison lurking behind the shadows.

What did you mean by saying that the DB magic is gone since BoG? Did you refer to writing and story or the new style of animated content? If the former, then absolutely nothing has changed from how Toriyama always perceived and wrote Dragon Ball.
Akira Toriyama wrote:As a rule, there is no such thing as a theme in my work.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:45 am

You did explain, but you are incorrect in what he said. He didn't like "poisoning his audience". So what if he is treated like a hero. It's not meant as a morality tale. It's a fun martial arts show with cool memorable characters, awesome fights, humor, at many points great tension, and even some heart sprinkled in for good measure.

So what if Goku is "poison"?

In BoG, Toriyama created a great new memorable character and it felt like DB. Now DB feels like a lot of fanservice. DB just can't let go of Freeza and they even made a canon version of Broly. They keep going back to the well with Freeza and while I have yet to see the new movie, going back to final days of Planet Vegeta is bound to include at least one significant retcon.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:17 pm

ABED wrote:You did explain, but you are incorrect in what he said. He didn't like "poisoning his audience". So what if he is treated like a hero. It's not meant as a morality tale. It's a fun martial arts show with cool memorable characters, awesome fights, humor, at many points great tension, and even some heart sprinkled in for good measure.

So what if Goku is "poison"?
The problem people have with Goku’s portrayal seems to be less that he loves fighting, and more that the latter parts of the series have him making some boneheaded decisions with no real justification beyond “he’s a Saiyan, therefore he’s a jerk”. I think most fans these days are perfectly willing to accept that Goku isn’t Superman, but a lot of people feel that his more unsavory traits have been exaggerated to the point of frustration.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:19 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
ABED wrote:You did explain, but you are incorrect in what he said. He didn't like "poisoning his audience". So what if he is treated like a hero. It's not meant as a morality tale. It's a fun martial arts show with cool memorable characters, awesome fights, humor, at many points great tension, and even some heart sprinkled in for good measure.

So what if Goku is "poison"?
The problem people have with Goku’s portrayal seems to be less that he loves fighting, and more that the latter parts of the series have him making some boneheaded decisions with no real justification beyond “he’s a Saiyan, therefore he’s a jerk”. I think most fans these days are perfectly willing to accept that Goku isn’t Superman, but a lot of people feel that his more unsavory traits have been exaggerated to the point of frustration.
I don't think he's fundamentally different or as exaggerated, it's simply the scale and the stakes are greater. Whereas he put just the world in danger for the sake of a fight, then the universe, now universes. Same character, same decision, just greater scale.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Tavarano » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:07 am

ABED wrote:You did explain, but you are incorrect in what he said. He didn't like "poisoning his audience". So what if he is treated like a hero. It's not meant as a morality tale. It's a fun martial arts show with cool memorable characters, awesome fights, humor, at many points great tension, and even some heart sprinkled in for good measure.

So what if Goku is "poison"?

In BoG, Toriyama created a great new memorable character and it felt like DB. Now DB feels like a lot of fanservice. DB just can't let go of Freeza and they even made a canon version of Broly. They keep going back to the well with Freeza and while I have yet to see the new movie, going back to final days of Planet Vegeta is bound to include at least one significant retcon.
Toriyama says that there is "poison" in his stories, if there is, then you can conclude that it poisons the audience. Why I have a problem with this style of writing is what I said at the beginning, that when it comes to story with a continous narrative like Dragon Ball, one of the things that author has to achieve is emotional investment from the audience, so that they care about the characters, their conflicts and so on, and tune in for the next chapter/episode. When the writing is bad then you don't care, just like you don't because of fanservice in this case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATye-wK3Szk
Take this scene for example, which is a very embodiment of Toriyama's style present in all his stories. Do you not feel like there's something wrong with it? These do not feel like actual characters, but braindead caricatures, this puts the integrity of the story and relationships between the characters under a question mark for me.
Maybe I expect too much realism out of DB, but it's not like it's meant to be a parody, or is it?
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:02 am

Sorry for the sidetrack everyone.

I go back to the retcon that is Super. It doesn't ruin DB because it's almost modular, but it does sour me on wanting to see DB continue.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 6:45 pm

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:You did explain, but you are incorrect in what he said. He didn't like "poisoning his audience". So what if he is treated like a hero. It's not meant as a morality tale. It's a fun martial arts show with cool memorable characters, awesome fights, humor, at many points great tension, and even some heart sprinkled in for good measure.

So what if Goku is "poison"?

In BoG, Toriyama created a great new memorable character and it felt like DB. Now DB feels like a lot of fanservice. DB just can't let go of Freeza and they even made a canon version of Broly. They keep going back to the well with Freeza and while I have yet to see the new movie, going back to final days of Planet Vegeta is bound to include at least one significant retcon.
Toriyama says that there is "poison" in his stories, if there is, then you can conclude that it poisons the audience. Why I have a problem with this style of writing is what I said at the beginning, that when it comes to story with a continous narrative like Dragon Ball, one of the things that author has to achieve is emotional investment from the audience, so that they care about the characters, their conflicts and so on, and tune in for the next chapter/episode. When the writing is bad then you don't care, just like you don't because of fanservice in this case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATye-wK3Szk
Take this scene for example, which is a very embodiment of Toriyama's style present in all his stories. Do you not feel like there's something wrong with it? These do not feel like actual characters, but braindead caricatures, this puts the integrity of the story and relationships between the characters under a question mark for me.
Maybe I expect too much realism out of DB, but it's not like it's meant to be a parody, or is it?
This is why I often point out that much of the best of Dragonball isn't directly from Toriyama. The anime adaptions of Early Dragonball and Z are notably less "poisonous" than the original manga, and in many ways better done (besides pacing). There's more emotional weight behind the major events, Goku is more heroic and larger-than-life (but still flawed in intended ways), there a greater amount of gravitas overall, most of the wholesome moments are actually wholesome unlike in the original manga, etc. Then there's obvious examples like the History of Trunks & 90's Bardock animes compared to Toriyama's versions of these stories.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:01 pm

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:No, unless you except good story, consistent writing, themes and proper character development from DB, but that ship has sailed long time ago, or perhaps has never been at the port to begin with.
I don't think that's a fair assessment of DB. There is plenty of great writing and proper character development.
The direction itself is problematic to me, the characters aren't believeable because of it, literal genociders hang around with everyone else and are treated just like another guy, all the immoral actions go unpunished and forgotten, Goku can throw a senzu to Cell but Gohan won't ever say anything about it, or can abandon his wife for 7 years and she will wonder if she's looking good when he comes back. Gohan can get everyone killed due to his laziness and not learn anything from it, or shoot his wife while drunk almost killing his unborn daughter, treat the situation nonchalantly and nobody will care. They never seem to take the threats over their lives with adequate seriousness, the greatest example being the ToP where the characters refuse to join because they are more interested in their daily lives even when they are directly threatened with a fate worse than death. The conflicts in DB often happen in a very weird way, characters from time to time act like proper antiheroes except they seem to not do it out of malice, they just become temporarily dumb and illogical so that their goal becomes harder to reach. For example, why should one emotionally invest into Goku and Vegeta's genki dama struggle with Kid Buu if the only reason it's happening is because they just crushed the potaras and won't call Gohan nor Gotenks for help due to... reasons. And this is supposedly the charm of Toriyama's "poisonous" writing or however he calls it, to me it's just plainly bad. Toei (old school Toei anyway) did a lot better, by trying to get you to genuinely care about the characters so that you'd be invested, even though the anime technically missed the intention by being wholesome, and because of this direction discrepancy seems to be rather unfocused when it comes to morality and perception of the characters.

Aside from the direction, DB is a prototype of how a proper battle shonen should be done. The fighting aspect is nothing but waste, environment, weapons, items, techniques are used almost never, it all boils down to that pesky hidden number and everyone who doesn't have it high enough is worthless, the villains need to be massively overpowered and be able to defeat all the good guys at once just to be a threat, DB is really one of a kind that works that poorly. There are a lot of things that happen just because Toriyama needs something to happen and damage the integrity of the story, Goku can speak telepathically because why not, he can read minds because why not, Cell is suddenly perfect again because why not, Goku doesn't need to put his fingers on his forehead to teleport with kamehameha because why not, the rules of ressurection constantly change because why not, and of course there is no sense of consistency when it comes to strength portrayal because since 21st Budokai when Roshi destroyed the moon, every fight should leave massive dent in Earth whenever a character uses ki attacks, if not destroy it entirely, you can perhaps suspend your disbelief for all of this, but objectively it's terrible writing. Anything unique that appears gets inevitably watered down to being meaningless, kamehameha, flying, kaioken, super saiyan, god ki, all ki techniques get replaced by regular ki blasts, attention to detail is pretty poor, it still bothers me how the tails disappeared just like that. Motivations behind most of villains don't really work, Piccolo wants to conquer the world but fights in the tournament, the saiyans want to recruit Goku to conquer a planet with strong inhabitants, but then it's forgotten and Vegeta kills Nappa for no real reason, Vegeta wants to become immortal and then conveniently forgets about his goal, Frieza and saiyans are in the business for money except there isn't any interplanetary market of goods, Androids are supposedly programmed to kill Goku but don't act that way at all, Cell wants only to test his abilities just to destroy the ring he protected before and then try the same with the Earth. Well, I personally don't see this great writing.
About the ToP, most of the cast didn't know that the tournament was for the fate of the multiverse, because Goku lied to them and said it was only for money. Its only when they're about to go to the World of Void is when they find out the truth.

About the genocide thing, one thing I like about 90's Toei version was how they made Goku and especially Vegeta much more emotionally invested in the fate of the Saiyans and hateful of Freeza in the Namek arc.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Tavarano » Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:23 pm

Android 17 refused even after knowing, but this is just one of many examples that you can pick, it's mind-numbing how current Goku and Vegeta don't really care that Frieza is responsible for their race's genocide and parents' deaths, Goku is almost reaching best friends status with him, and others do not give a flying fuck knowing that he can blow up the Earth whenever he wants, so if the characters don't care, why should I? That's why I see it as bad writing. For old Toei's direction, there are plenty of differences, the specials are certainly something that Toriyama would have never written, handling of super saiyan transformations, especially Gohan's in the timechamber where he feels more like an actual character affected by events of the past, scene where Goku finds dead Kuririn after 22nd Budokai where in the manga he only reacts with pure anger but in the anime has a humanlike reaction, and the depiction of Goku's familial relationships, in the manga it's almost frustrating how oblivious ChiChi and Gohan are, "oh my hubby is returning from his 7 years training trip, I gotta look nice, maybe he will kiss me finally", seriously? Toriyama only writes characters that are to say, unrelatable on basic human level, or caricatures, in a stark contrast to what Toei was doing.
Akira Toriyama wrote:As a rule, there is no such thing as a theme in my work.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:42 am

This is why I often point out that much of the best of Dragonball isn't directly from Toriyama. The anime adaptions of Early Dragonball and Z are notably less "poisonous" than the original manga, and in many ways better done (besides pacing). There's more emotional weight behind the major events, Goku is more heroic and larger-than-life (but still flawed in intended ways), there a greater amount of gravitas overall, most of the wholesome moments are actually wholesome unlike in the original manga, etc. Then there's obvious examples like the History of Trunks & 90's Bardock animes compared to Toriyama's versions of these stories.
How does making Goku more heroic make Dragon Ball better?
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