Unpopular DB opinions

[MasenkoHA]

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I guess while we’re on the subject of people being blinded by nostalgia, shows like Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles really don’t hold up either. I have no clue why people pretend that schlock like that are any good. Don’t even get me started on Batman Beyond, which seemed like it was conceived of by a 15 year old.

Have never watched Gargoyles so no comment.

Batman The Animated Series holds up perfectly well. The problem is people want to pretend it’s a show for adults despite airing on Fox Kids and then later KidsWb. It’s a kid show. A remarkably well made kid show that doesn’t treat kids like complete morons (for the most part there were some uh episodes that seemed to pander to the youngest of their demographic)

Mask of the Phantasm is also legitimately the best Batman film. I say this as someone whose not really enamored with any of the Burton/Schumacher/Nolan stuff though.


Batman Beyond meh. It was the best possible scenario of a corporate mandate of a series but I honestly found it boring. Return of the Joker is pretty great though.

[ABED]

Interesting. Was my elementary school experience that different from many people? We were just as likely to talk about sitcoms like The Simpsons, Seinfeld, and Friends as we were BTAS and the shows on Nickelodeon. DBZ came later.

I get the appeal of nostalgia, even engaging in watching bad kids shows in adulthood, but for the love of god, call a spade a spade, and watch other age appropriate movies and TV shows.

That argument should apply to Dragon Ball as well, given that the series is squarely geared towards children.

I guess while we’re on the subject of people being blinded by nostalgia, shows like Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles really don’t hold up either. I have no clue why people pretend that schlock like that are any good. Don’t even get me started on Batman Beyond, which seemed like it was conceived of by a 15 year old who desperately wants to seem cool.

BTAS is written for children but it holds up in adulthood by and large. Something being written for kids doesn't mean it lacks sophistication that adults can enjoy. Watch "It's Never Too Late" and tell me that's not something for a mature audience.

Batman Beyond wasn't created by corporate mandate (heaven forbid), WB just wanted a show that had a younger target demo, which makes sense seeing as it was airing on Kids' WB.

[WittyUsername]

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I guess while we’re on the subject of people being blinded by nostalgia, shows like Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles really don’t hold up either. I have no clue why people pretend that schlock like that are any good. Don’t even get me started on Batman Beyond, which seemed like it was conceived of by a 15 year old.

Have never watched Gargoyles so no comment.

Batman The Animated Series holds up perfectly well. The problem is people want to pretend it’s a show for adults despite airing on Fox Kids and then later KidsWb. It’s a kid show. A remarkably well made kid show that doesn’t treat kids like complete morons (for the most part there were some uh episodes that seemed to pander to the youngest of their demographic)

Mask of the Phantasm is also legitimately the best Batman film. I say this as someone whose not really enamored with any of the Burton/Schumacher/Nolan stuff though.


Batman Beyond meh. It was the best possible scenario of a corporate mandate of a series but I honestly found it boring. Return of the Joker is pretty great though.

I seriously disagree. Just because B:TAS wasn’t a colorful toy commercial (at least not until it got reworked into TNBA) doesn’t mean it holds up. The animation is stiff, the dialogue is awkward, and the voice acting is pretty subpar in the early episodes. Also, Harley Quinn is quite possibly one of the most poorly written and obnoxious characters in the history of comics. I do think that Mask of the Phantasm isn’t too bad, but the series itself? Meh.

As for BB, that show is atrocious, and that includes Return of the Joker. Everything about that stupid show and movie just screams “LOOK AT HOW HIP AND EDGY WE ARE!” Seriously, how can anyone look at that image of a miniature Joker from Return of the Joker, and honestly feel disturbed by it? That shit is hillariously try hard and stupid.

Anyway, as for Dragon Ball itself, people who are blinded by nostalgia do seem to unfortunately forget that it’s a stupid and poorly written franchise geared towards children.

[MasenkoHA]

. Watch "It's Never Too Late" and tell me that's not something for a mature audience.

It’s Never Too Late is a perfect example of what made Batman TAS so good. No colorful gimmicky villains, no preachy moralistic lesson for kids like teamwork is awesome or whatever. Just a story about Batman helping a drug lord change his ways.

There was definitely quite a bit of crap like I got Batman in my basement (an episode even the people who ran the show hated) but by and large it was an extremely well made show that didn’t use its target audience as an excuse for crap (most of the time)

[ABED]

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I guess while we’re on the subject of people being blinded by nostalgia, shows like Batman: The Animated Series and Gargoyles really don’t hold up either. I have no clue why people pretend that schlock like that are any good. Don’t even get me started on Batman Beyond, which seemed like it was conceived of by a 15 year old.

Have never watched Gargoyles so no comment.

Batman The Animated Series holds up perfectly well. The problem is people want to pretend it’s a show for adults despite airing on Fox Kids and then later KidsWb. It’s a kid show. A remarkably well made kid show that doesn’t treat kids like complete morons (for the most part there were some uh episodes that seemed to pander to the youngest of their demographic)

Mask of the Phantasm is also legitimately the best Batman film. I say this as someone whose not really enamored with any of the Burton/Schumacher/Nolan stuff though.


Batman Beyond meh. It was the best possible scenario of a corporate mandate of a series but I honestly found it boring. Return of the Joker is pretty great though.

I seriously disagree. Just because B:TAS wasn’t a colorful toy commercial (at least not until it got reworked into TNBA) doesn’t mean it holds up. The animation is stiff, the dialogue is awkward, and the voice acting is pretty subpar in the early episodes. Also, Harley Quinn is quite possibly one of the most poorly written and obnoxious characters in the history of comics. I do think that Mask of the Phantasm isn’t too bad, but the series itself? Meh.

As for BB, that show is atrocious, and that includes Return of the Joker. Everything about that stupid show and movie just screams “LOOK AT HOW HIP AND EDGY WE ARE!” Seriously, how can anyone look at that image of a miniature Joker from Return of the Joker, and honestly feel disturbed by it? That shit is hillariously try hard and stupid.

Anyway, as for Dragon Ball itself, people who are blinded by nostalgia do seem to unfortunately forget that it’s a stupid and poorly written franchise geared towards children.

The animation isn't stiff at all. It's unique to this day. The dialog is also good. It's not Elmore Leonard, but it's not anywhere near DBZ season 3. The only voice I would say doesn't work is the first voice for Alfred. I agree about Harley, though.

And no one here is claiming DB is The Count of Monte Cristo, but DB's fight scenes are legit great, and Toriyama is able to mix genres and his weird sense of humor.

[MasenkoHA]

The animation is stiff, the dialogue is awkward, and the voice acting is pretty subpar

The animation was inconsistent. It depended on what animation studio was doing the episode. On Leather Wings, the pilot episode, looks great. But there were definitely a few episodes where the outsourced animation studio wasn’t up to snuff (I believe one episode was so poorly animated the production staff refused to use that particular studio ever again)

The acting was just fine. As with any show the actors had to get use to their roles but there was nothing wrong with the acting

. Also, Harley Quinn is quite possibly one of the most poorly written and obnoxious characters in the history of comics

What about her make hers poorly written?

Despite that season on the whole being a downgrade Mad Love was a pretty good episode dealing with abusive relationships while still being kid friendly.


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” Seriously, how can anyone look at that image of a miniature Joker from Return of the Joker, and honestly feel disturbed by it? That shit is hillariously try hard and stupid.

You’re not suppose to be disturbed by mini-Joker. You’re suppose to be disturbed by the fact that the Joker kidnapped a 13-year old boy and tortured him into insanity for a few weeks. Missing the forest for trees there bud.

[WittyUsername]

The animation is stiff, the dialogue is awkward, and the voice acting is pretty subpar

The animation was inconsistent. It depended on what animation studio was doing the episode. On Leather Wings, the pilot episode, looks great. But there were definitely a few episodes where the outsourced animation studio wasn’t up to snuff (I believe one episode was so poorly animated the production staff refused to use that particular studio ever again)

The acting was just fine. As with any show the actors had to get use to their roles but there was nothing wrong with the acting

. Also, Harley Quinn is quite possibly one of the most poorly written and obnoxious characters in the history of comics

What about her make hers poorly written?

Despite that season on the whole being a downgrade Mad Love was a pretty good episode dealing with abusive relationships while still being kid friendly.


.

” Seriously, how can anyone look at that image of a miniature Joker from Return of the Joker, and honestly feel disturbed by it? That shit is hillariously try hard and stupid.

You’re not suppose to be disturbed by mini-Joker. You’re suppose to be disturbed by the fact that the Joker kidnapped a 13-year old boy and tortured him into insanity for a few weeks. Missing the forest for trees there bud.

Nothing about Harley Quinn makes sense. Her backstory is that she’s a naive airhead who got a PhD by having sex with her professors, even though that’s not how any of that works. The idea of her being manipulated into falling in love with the Joker is also really stupid. Since when was the Joker some charming Ted Bundy-esque character? Who asked for that? And why does the Joker need to be a domestic abuser? The whole point of the Joker is that he’s an unpredictable force of nature. There’s nothing unpredictable about a bad guy who happens to be an abusive boyfriend. That’s so lazy and manipulative. Not to mention that if Harley Quinn is supposed to represent victims of domestic violence, then that seems extremely insulting and demeaning. Beyond that, her voice and her sense of “humor” are ear gratingly awful.

The idea of the Joker torturing Tim Drake for shits and giggles could’ve worked on its own, but the way it was presented just didn’t work. I can’t take it seriously if the Joker is now some body snatching super genius who has a penchant for turning teenage boys into tiny versions of himself.

[8000 Saiyan]

Batman Beyond might have been for a younger audience, but I found it a lot more darker than Batman: The Animated Series

And please, elaborate why you find the show stupid. Because I hardly find it stupid or trying too hard to be edgy or whatever it is you're saying it.

[MasenkoHA]

Batman Beyond might have been for a younger audience, but I found it a lot more darker than Batman: The Animated Series.

I honestly can't remember anything about Batman Beyond as a whole that felt darker than B:TAS.

There was more of a animesque vibe to BB where B:TAS was more inspired by the style of the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons but the series never felt darker.

[WittyUsername]

Batman Beyond might have been for a younger audience, but I found it a lot more darker than Batman: The Animated Series

And please, elaborate why you find the show stupid. Because I hardly find it stupid or trying too hard to be edgy or whatever it is you're saying it.

At the risk of getting off topic, it seemed painfully obvious that they were going for an edgier vibe compared to B:TAS. Everything from the music, the art style, Bruce Wayne having had a fling with Barbara Gordon, to the fact that the main character has a juvenile record, just seems like the show desperately trying to be a 15 year old’s idea of something cool and edgy. If you’re going to have a superhero show that takes place in high school, wouldn’t it make more sense to go for something sillier and more colorful than B:TAS?

As for it being stupid, I stand by that statement. The main character is a normal looking teenager who is not only able to perfectly fit into a suit that was made for a muscular middle aged man, but who is also somehow able to fight like Batman, despite having no formal training.

To tie things back to the subject of Dragon Ball, the show feels like what FUNimation tried to market GT as.

[ABED]

Because high school is all lollipops and rainbows? It's typically not a great experience for most people. Buffy's central metaphor for the first few seasons were "high school is hell".

If GT was marketed the same way as Batman Beyond, it made WAY more sense for BB since it was created from the ground up. Techno rock fits a superhero show built around an American teenager in the future. It didn't fit a Chinese martial arts fantasy.

[MasenkoHA]

Everything from the music,

The music fit the futuristic setting of the show. We're not talking Mark Menza's rescoring of Dragon Ball GT here. I love the heavy Danny Elfman inspired Shirley Walker Orchestral score from B:TAS but the Kristopher Carter was just fine. Faulconer and Menza (especially Menza)really wanted to ape that score painfully though.

the art style

It was more anime influenced but I don't know what about it seems like it was trying too hard.

, Bruce Wayne having had a fling with Barbara Gordon

Which was barely part of the show. We're not talking the first half of Killing Joke here.

, to the fact that the main character has a juvenile record

I don't even know what the point of being upset about this? Do you want him to be like the Power Rangers and do volunteer work on his downtime?

If you’re going to have a superhero show that takes place in high school, wouldn’t it make more sense to go for something sillier and more colorful than B:TAS?

Why? Why would it make more sense if it was set in high school?

At any rate the show existed because the higher ups told Timm and Co to make a Buffy type Batman show.

I'm not a huge fan of Batman Beyond but knowing the genesis of its entire existence it was very obviously a make lemonade out of lemons kind of show.

The main character is a normal looking teenager who is not only able to perfectly fit into a suit that was made for a muscular middle aged man[/quote}
Haven't not seen the show in years I'm like 90 percent sure it was stated the suit was suppose to be flexible, like the Saiyan armor in DBZ, or the very least that was clearly inferred.

, but who is also somehow able to fight like Batman, despite having no formal training.

He's not able to fight like Batman. He had his own street tough fighting style. He also had a much higher tech suit than Bruce Wayne Batman and Bruce Wayne often called the shots.

To tie things back to the subject of Dragon Ball, the show feels like what FUNimation tried to market GT as.

Funimation's reversioning of GT was a complete raping (for lack of a better term) of a series in order to fit in with the brand image they cultivated for Dragon Ball Z. The only comparable thing between Batman Beyond and Funimation's Dragon Ball GT is GT is what Beyond could have been under less hands. A corporate pandering shallow edgelord of a series.

[WittyUsername]

Because high school is all lollipops and rainbows? It's typically not a great experience for most people. Buffy's central metaphor for the first few seasons were "high school is hell".

If GT was marketed the same way as Batman Beyond, it made WAY more sense for BB since it was created from the ground up. Techno rock fits a superhero show built around an American teenager in the future. It didn't fit a Chinese martial arts fantasy.

Being a dumb teenager in high school is certainly a lot easier than being an adult. Besides, the entire reason that BB was ever even made was because the higher ups at WB wanted a Batman show that would appeal more to the target demographic (AKA, children). With that in mind, the fact that they decided to make the show this weird Blade Runner meets Batman story is just odd. Hell, Spider-Man: Homecoming involved high school, and that was arguably the MCU’s most lighthearted film to date.

Anyway, I suppose that unlike with how FUNimation handled GT, BB did indeed have the advantage of being built “from the ground up”, but it still seems really odd to me that a show where the main protagonist is a child is somehow edgier than the show where the main character is an adult, in the same way that it’s really dumb how FUNimation tried to market a lighthearted adventure show like GT as this edgy and “badass” successor to DBZ.

[xarmyz]

Here's a radical idea for you. If you honestly don't think very much of the thing that the board you are posting on is dedicated to, then maybe it is time for you to move on to something else rather than be an ass lording on how much more mature you are to think it's writing is beneath your intelligence and the only people who like it are fools blinded by nostalgia.

[MasenkoHA]

Anyway, I suppose that unlike with how FUNimation handled GT, BB did indeed have the advantage of being built “from the ground up”, but it still seems really odd to me that a show where the main protagonist is a child is somehow edgier than the show

Your logic makes no sense. "The protagonist is a minor so the show should have been a lot more kiddified" just...what?

It really wasn't edgier than the first animated series. It just had a different style to it.

, in the same way that it’s really dumb how FUNimation tried to market a lighthearted adventure show like GT as this edgy and “badass” successor to DBZ.

This comparison is completely asinine.

[WittyUsername]

Here's a radical idea for you. If you honestly don't think very much of the thing that the board you are posting on is dedicated to, then maybe it is time for you to move on to something else rather than be an ass lording on how much more mature you are to think it's writing is beneath your intelligence and the only people who like it are fools blinded by nostalgia.

I wasn't the one who initially brought up the topic of people being blinded by nostalgia. I was simply throwing my two cents on the matter. I certainly never tried to make myself out to be more mature or intelligent than anyone else, because I’m not.

Your logic makes no sense. "The protagonist is a minor so the show should have been a lot more kiddified" just...what?

It really wasn't edgier than the first animated series. It just had a different style to it.

The style of the show was definitely edgier than B:TAS, and I think it just didn’t work with the child protagonist. Generally speaking, most works of fiction that have a child as the protagonist are trying to appeal specifically to children. That’s why Dragon Ball had Goku as a child for half of the series.

[MasenkoHA]

The style of the show was definitely edgier than B:TAS, and I think it just didn’t work with the child protagonist. Generally speaking, most works of fiction that have a child as the protagonist are trying to appeal specifically to children. That’s why Dragon Ball had Goku as a child for half of the series.

There's plenty of work with child leads that isn't specifically aimed at children (although yes Batman Beyond is a children's show) just like there is plenty of kid shows and child friendly media that uses adult leads. Your whole line of thinking is completely wack.

Especially since Terry was 16/17. It's not like he was 9.

[ABED]

Being a dumb teenager in high school is certainly a lot easier than being an adult. Besides, the entire reason that BB was ever even made was because the higher ups at WB wanted a Batman show that would appeal more to the target demographic (AKA, children). With that in mind, the fact that they decided to make the show this weird Blade Runner meets Batman story is just odd. Hell, Spider-Man: Homecoming involved high school, and that was arguably the MCU’s most lighthearted film to date.

Terry went to high school IN GOTHAM. You have a very naïve view of high school. Again, I point to Buffy which was an influence on the DCAU and that wasn't a show for children. Plenty of shows centered around high school involve mature subject matter. Degrassi Junior High dealt with suicide, online predators, abuse, and school shootings. I had a very tame high school experience compared to the horror stories I've heard, which aren't uncommon, and even I had to deal with constant bullying. No one goes through high school without scars. Batman Beyond may have benefitted from Kids WB being laxer with their restrictions.

Batman Beyond's tone fit its subject matter, the DB franchise's dub's tone did not.

I wasn't the one who initially brought up the topic of people being blinded by nostalgia. I was simply throwing my two cents on the matter.

My point wasn't to knock people who enjoy shows out of nostalgia. If you go back, what I clearly said was that I enjoy nostalgia, but I can call a spade a spade. At no point did I knock DB. DB's not beyond criticism, but it has plenty of positives, otherwise I wouldn't be on a forum dedicated to discussing it.

[WittyUsername]

Being a dumb teenager in high school is certainly a lot easier than being an adult. Besides, the entire reason that BB was ever even made was because the higher ups at WB wanted a Batman show that would appeal more to the target demographic (AKA, children). With that in mind, the fact that they decided to make the show this weird Blade Runner meets Batman story is just odd. Hell, Spider-Man: Homecoming involved high school, and that was arguably the MCU’s most lighthearted film to date.

Terry went to high school IN GOTHAM. You have a very naïve view of high school. Again, I point to Buffy which was an influence on the DCAU and that wasn't a show for children. Plenty of shows centered around high school involve mature subject matter. Degrassi Junior High dealt with suicide, online predators, abuse, and school shootings. I had a very tame high school experience compared to the horror stories I've heard, which aren't uncommon, and even I had to deal with constant bullying. No one goes through high school without scars. Batman Beyond may have benefitted from Kids WB being laxer with their restrictions.

Batman Beyond's tone fit its subject matter, the DB franchise's dub's tone did not.

Sure, being a teenager isn’t a picnic for everyone, but it’s a hell of a lot easier than being an adult. I’m not even saying that a story where the protagonist is a child has to be all sunshines and flowers, but when your show exists specifically because some studio executives want to appeal more towards the target audience, I think it would’ve made sense to try and give kids a more lighthearted take on Batman. Something more along the lines of early Spider-Man comics than Blade Runner. It’s like making a dark and edgy show about Captain Marvel/Shazam. What’s the point of the protagonist being a kid if you’re going to do that?

My point wasn't to knock people who enjoy shows out of nostalgia. If you go back, what I clearly said was that I enjoy nostalgia, but I can call a spade a spade. At no point did I knock DB. DB's not beyond criticism, but it has plenty of positives, otherwise I wouldn't be on a forum dedicated to discussing it.

I believe you. I also think that Dragon Ball has plenty of positives. I just think it should be kept in mind that we aren’t the target demographic for it, which is something that other people (I’m not saying you’re one of them) seem to forget.

[ABED]

I think Timm and Co.'s intention was to lighten things up, but as the stories evolved, the end result was what it was.