How would you improve DBS' antagonists?

[FrioPolar]

in the manga kefla if it is illogical because vados says he can beat everyone (except jiren) and she saw the fight of toppo and goku only so that gohan defeat her ridiculously.

The same thing that happened in the anime and you justify it, in the anime all the gods had seen the fight of Goku and Toppo before the tournament and still thought that their fighters had the chance to win the tournament and many did not surpass even Goku SS1...

[wolflonnie]

but is it ok to ruin kefla to make vegito good?
also kale is stronger than goku or vegeta in z where is the illogical? kefla allows a better balance since is bad that only hit is able to face goku and vegeta.in team U6

Oh boy.
Ruin? No, I just specified "make her SSB levels" and to stress out more that Goku isn't performing as well as he could. Nobody talked about "ruining".
Also yes Vegetto has way more story behind than Kefla could ever hope honestly. He has been a fan favourite and an important symbol of the Buu saga and DBZ in general for many years, so he should be threated adequately. That didn't happen.
What happened is that Kefla seems to be illogically way stronger than him where it should be the other way around, that is not good writing. You don't touch such an important figure as Vegetto to make a newbie look good.
Such phenomena never produces good results in a media.
I don't think they purposefully made it seem like Kefla is superior to Vegetto, but bad writing is often unintentional. So that's why I'm suggesting that she could've been better by making her power more logical. Like honestly happened in the manga.
And no her power is not logical no matter how you slice it, but to be fair this is not the "strenght comparison" thread so I won't explain further.
Another simple solution would be to remove the "Jiren is the strongest opponent we dealt with thus far" line altogether, or to simply comment his hidden power as that scary.
Also be it clear. I love a good written female character and I sort of like some facets of Kefla. I don't dislike her. I just think she's a bit over the top.

why? nobody believes that gotenks ssj3 ruins goku ssj3 ...
is just pure favoritism
I like it more vegito and I do not care about that kefla is more sttronger.
kale is stronger than goku and vegeta logically kefla must be stronger
in the manga kefla if it is illogical because vados says he can beat everyone (except jiren) and she saw the fight of toppo and goku only so that gohan defeat her ridiculously.

I don't think Gotenks SSJ3 ruins Goku SSJ3 because I don't believe he's way stronger than him. Plus it's sort of believable since the young boys are way closer to Goku and Vegeta than Caulifla and Kale ever were.
Caulifla is not even half as strong as Goku (full power) and Kale's power is arguably SSB/SSBKK levels at most.
So they shouldn't form a being that is sadly implied to be stronger than Vegetto.
Actually, I think I did a mistake. The main issue here is that initial Jiren is implied to be stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is almost on par with Vegetto Blue. The same Jiren later fights evenly with UI Goku, who had some trouble with SSJ2 Kefla.
I think the problem isn't really Kefla per se, but more Shin's line regarding Jiren.
If Shin said "I feel a potential like no enemy before!", there would have been no problem at all. No implications that initial Jiren is superior to SSB Vegetto.

[FrioPolar]

Caulifla is not even half as strong as Goku (full power) and Kale's power is arguably SSB/SSBKK levels at most.

Kale is weaker than Goku God, in episode 114 she could not defeat him, and even Goku resisted without any damage an attack of her in the face in that episode.

That's why Kefla's power is so incoherent, especially Kefla's power in normal form.

Both Caulifla and Kale are not so powerful so even with the multiplication of the potara they should not reach the level they reached.

Goku Base > Caulifla Base > Kale Base.

Goku God >> Kale SS2 >>>> Caulifla SS2.

and yet...

Kefla Base > Goku God...lol.

Kefla SS2 >> Kefla SS1 > Goku SSBKK x20...LMAO.

[Tai Lung]

I don't think Gotenks SSJ3 ruins Goku SSJ3 because I don't believe he's way stronger than him. Plus it's sort of believable since the young boys are way closer to Goku and Vegeta than Caulifla and Kale ever were.
Caulifla is not even half as strong as Goku (full power) and Kale's power is arguably SSB/SSBKK levels at most.
So they shouldn't form a being that is sadly implied to be stronger than Vegetto.
Actually, I think I did a mistake. The main issue here is that initial Jiren is implied to be stronger than Merged Zamasu, who is almost on par with Vegetto Blue. The same Jiren later fights evenly with UI Goku, who had some trouble with SSJ2 Kefla.
I think the problem isn't really Kefla per se, but more Shin's line regarding Jiren.
If Shin said "I feel a potential like no enemy before!", there would have been no problem at all. No implications that initial Jiren is superior to SSB Vegetto.

gotenks is stronger than super buu
It should be stronger than vegito buu arc but not that of Zamasu arc

in the manga kefla if it is illogical because vados says he can beat everyone (except jiren) and she saw the fight of toppo and goku only so that gohan defeat her ridiculously.

The same thing that happened in the anime and you justify it, in the anime all the gods had seen the fight of Goku and Toppo before the tournament and still thought that their fighters had the chance to win the tournament and many did not surpass even Goku SS1...

because the anime justifies it, not me.
this amilaza, kefla, the universe 2 black hole and skills or techniques illusions, poison, invisibility etc no, not all were character random unlike manga.

Caulifla is not even half as strong as Goku (full power) and Kale's power is arguably SSB/SSBKK levels at most.

Kale is weaker than Goku God, in episode 114 she could not defeat him, and even Goku resisted without any damage an attack of her in the face in that episode.

That's why Kefla's power is so incoherent, especially Kefla's power in normal form.

Both Caulifla and Kale are not so powerful so even with the multiplication of the potara they should not reach the level they reached.

Goku Base > Caulifla Base > Kale Base.

Goku God >> Kale SS2 >>>> Caulifla SS2.

and yet...

Kefla Base > Goku God...lol.

Kefla SS2 >> Kefla SS1 > Goku SSBKK x20...LMAO.

is false
"kale berserker" endured an attack of goku ssjb in the anime and in the manga she defeat golden frieza
that kale ep 114 was weaker than that of episode 100 because she regaining consciousness but could still give some fight to goku god.

[FrioPolar]

in the manga kefla if it is illogical because vados says he can beat everyone (except jiren) and she saw the fight of toppo and goku only so that gohan defeat her ridiculously.

The same thing that happened in the anime and you justify it, in the anime all the gods had seen the fight of Goku and Toppo before the tournament and still thought that their fighters had the chance to win the tournament and many did not surpass even Goku SS1...

because the anime justifies it, not me.
this amilaza, kefla, the universe 2 black hole and skills or techniques illusions, poison, invisibility etc no, not all were character random unlike manga.

The three guys from U2 managed to learn to use the black hole during the tournament, before that, why did Helles think his fighters could win?

Why did the God of Destruction of the Universe 10 believe that his fighters could win the tournament?

Why did the Gods of Universe 3 rely on the power of Nigrisshi, "The greatest modified warrior of Universe 3" to win a tournament in which Goku would be if Nigrisshi was defeated by Cabba Base?

Caulifla is not even half as strong as Goku (full power) and Kale's power is arguably SSB/SSBKK levels at most.

Kale is weaker than Goku God, in episode 114 she could not defeat him, and even Goku resisted without any damage an attack of her in the face in that episode.

That's why Kefla's power is so incoherent, especially Kefla's power in normal form.

Both Caulifla and Kale are not so powerful so even with the multiplication of the potara they should not reach the level they reached.

Goku Base > Caulifla Base > Kale Base.

Goku God >> Kale SS2 >>>> Caulifla SS2.

and yet...

Kefla Base > Goku God...lol.

Kefla SS2 >> Kefla SS1 > Goku SSBKK x20...LMAO.

is false
"kale berserker" endured an attack of goku ssjb in the anime and in the manga she defeat golden frieza
that kale ep 114 was weaker than that of episode 100 because she regaining consciousness but could still give some fight to goku god.

What is false in what I said? Kale in episode 114 was weaker than Goku God, she even threw an attack on Goku's face and it did not hurt him, what she did in the manga does not matter because we can not mix both versions, in episode 100 she managed to resist against Goku Blue but after controlling her power she was weaker than Goku God.

Inconsistency of Toei? Yes, one of the many, but surely as you do with all the inconsistencies of the anime but not with the manga, you will look for a way to justify it, but it's still a fact.

And It was Kale SS2 weaker than Goku God the one that merged with Caulifla and in normal form could defeat Goku God and in SS1 overcome Goku SSBKKX20, which is totally absurd.

[Tai Lung]

The three guys from U2 managed to learn to use the black hole during the tournament, before that, why did Helles think his fighters could win?

the black hole was made thanks to the power of ribrianne and her friends they had knowledge of that only they could not dominate yet but the knowledge already had that is made clear.

Why did the God of Destruction of the Universe 10 believe that his fighters could win the tournament?

the universe10 were the weakest but they trust that their flying warriors had a great advantage that they also say that the physical strength and skill would give them the victory obumi in the example to show their techniques of "fake bodies" to avoid injuries.
in any case that goku and toppo were in the tournament does not mean that all the opponents would have that level and in some cases the teams were looking to win with strategy and more warriors on the platform.

Why did the Gods of Universe 3 rely on the power of Nigrisshi, "The greatest modified warrior of Universe 3" to win a tournament in which Goku would be if Nigrisshi was defeated by Cabba Base?

is said at that time but it is clear that several warriors would be modified for the tournament so"this mention" would be in the past, as when piccolo was the strongest warrior on earth one day after goku overcomes in power.

Now I ask what has to do with what I said about kefla?
because both in anime and manga is established that kefla is superior to a ssjb or toppo base but while in the anime this remains consistent given that goku the defeat with UI, in the manga gohan the defeat ridiculously. then ...

What is false in what I said? Kale in episode 114 was weaker than Goku God, she even threw an attack on Goku's face and it did not hurt him, what she did in the manga does not matter because we can not mix both versions, in episode 100 she managed to resist against Goku Blue but after controlling her power she was weaker than Goku God.

Inconsistency of Toei? Yes, one of the many, but surely as you do with all the inconsistencies of the anime but not with the manga, you will look for a way to justify it, but it's still a fact.

And It was Kale SS2 weaker than Goku God the one that merged with Caulifla and in normal form could defeat Goku God and in SS1 overcome Goku SSBKKX20, which is totally absurd.

it is false because kale who learned to control his power is weaker than the one that attacked goku ssj blue that is a fact by how they saw both battles
kale ep 100 >>> kale 114 is simple
you just try to justify the manga claiming other errors in the anime and if it having them or not, not is an argument
and given the existence of broly fights golden frieza with the same kale's transformations they should well justify their power.

[FrioPolar]

The three guys from U2 managed to learn to use the black hole during the tournament, before that, why did Helles think his fighters could win?

the black hole was made thanks to the power of ribrianne and her friends they had knowledge of that only they could not dominate yet but the knowledge already had that is made clear.

Why did the God of Destruction of the Universe 10 believe that his fighters could win the tournament?

the universe10 were the weakest but they trust that their flying warriors had a great advantage that they also say that the physical strength and skill would give them the victory obumi in the example to show their techniques of "fake bodies" to avoid injuries.
in any case that goku and toppo were in the tournament does not mean that all the opponents would have that level and in some cases the teams were looking to win with strategy and more warriors

Why did the Gods of Universe 3 rely on the power of Nigrisshi, "The greatest modified warrior of Universe 3" to win a tournament in which Goku would be if Nigrisshi was defeated by Cabba Base?

is said at that time but it is clear that several warriors would be modified for the tournament so"this mention" would be in the past, as when piccolo was the strongest warrior on earth one day after goku overcomes in power.

Now I ask what has to do with what I said about kefla?
because both in anime and manga is established that kefla is superior to a ssjb or toppo base but while in the anime this remains consistent given that goku the defeat with UI, in the manga gohan the defeat ridiculously. then ...

But the warriors of Universe 2 could not do the black hole technique because they did not dominate it, that was achieved by the three guys during the tournament, so to say that they hoped to win the tournament because of that is absurd.

It is never said that they are confident of winning the tournament for their flying fighters, the God of Destruction was confident of them all and most had no wings.

Then they hoped to win with the help of Nigrisshi although he was weaker than Cabba base, sure.

Also, Nigrisshi who was once the strongest of Universe 3 modified Maji Kayo and managed to make it strong enough to fight Dyspo, but he was weaker than Cabba Base, sure.

The same thing that happened in the anime, Kale was established as stronger than Goku SSBLUE and then she could not defeat Goku God, but in anime you invent explanations that the series does not give.

Anilaza showed to be stronger than the 5 strongest warriors in Universe 7 together but Android 18 can withstand his attacks.

Android 18 supported the attacks of Anilaza that could send to fly to Goku SSGOD, but before to Android 18 threw it to the ground a kick of Majora that lost against Krillin, Krillin, Majora and Android 18 level SSGOD or more confirmed...

If Kefla's losing against Gohan had happened in the anime you would be inventing something like, "Vados was wrong or became retarded" like the anime gods who thought that their fighters weaker than Roshi or Android 18 could win a tournament in which were Goku and Toppo.

Or you would be saying "Gohan became very powerful before the tournament training and by script, during the Trunks arc he mentions that he was using the gravity room".

it is false because kale who learned to control his power is weaker than the one that attacked goku ssj blue that is a fact by how they saw both battles
kale ep 100 >>> kale 114 is simple
you just try to justify the manga claiming other errors in the anime and if it having them or not, not is an argument
and given the existence of broly fights golden frieza with the same kale's transformations they should well justify their power.

Goku also used the SSBLUE to kick Ribrianne and then she was defeated by Android 18, does Ribrianne have SSGOD level at least so that Goku will use that transformation against her?

It does not matter if Kale resisted against Goku SSBLUE in episode 100 because later she could not against Goku God and that Kale was the one that merged with Caulifla and they formed Kefla that in normal form could defeat Goku God, which does not make sense.

Episode 100 Kale is stronger than Goku SSBLUE? Maybe, after that episode? NO, that's what matters.

No, you are the justify everything to the anime but with the manga you adopt an ultra critical position, exaggerating his mistakes to try to make the manga look much more incoherent than the anime, even to the point of justifying Kefla's absurd power in the anime, but attacking her power in the manga.

[wolflonnie]

Can this thread please not be derailed? It has already been argued enough about Kefla's power, clearly @Tai Lung has his/her own vision and that's not the point of the thread.

[Kataphrut]

Zamasu

The problem many people have with Zamasu is that his fall from grace wasn't believable. It just sort of happens without much prompting and we're meant to think it was this tragic figure. I actually don't think that's a problem. I think the idea that he always was self-righteous, petty and hypocritical makes for a better villain than a faux-sympathetic one. So I'd honestly say leaning into that would make him work better. It's an obvious comparison but when I think of Zamasu and Black, I think of Hux and Kylo Ren from the new Star Wars movies. Make them whiny bully-boys who were always one step away from the deep end. It would actually make them more threatening, in my opinion.

I get the sense that this is what Toyotaro goes for in the manga. Or at the very least, that's the impression both his Black and Furure incarnations leave me. Manga Zamasu comes off as a naive punk who gets in over his head. He's also dismissive of mortals and antsy to use his power (which he's perhaps too proud of) from the moment we meet him.

It's obviously quite a different take from the anime' suave, mustache-twirling villain, and apparently a less popular one, but it's ones I kind of like—especially for a shorter version of the story.

My ideal would be a middle ground between Toyotaro and Toei's take. Make them fallible but don't give them the nerf he gave most of the villains. A petulant, angry Goku Black that can still wipe the floor with Vegeta could be something truly frightening.

[Tai Lung]

But the warriors of Universe 2 could not do the black hole technique because they did not dominate it, that was achieved by the three guys during the tournament, so to say that they hoped to win the tournament because of that is absurd.

which no matter they used the power was from ribriannne and her friends for what they could have done and the knowledge of this they had also the problem was that they were quickly separated so they could not do it.. which you do not have proof because the majority was prepared to enter the tournament

It is never said that they are confident of winning the tournament for their flying fighters, the God of Destruction was confident of them all and most had no wings.

that's what he say when their warriors start to fall
again obumi shows that fact by having skills and power and as I said strategy, a greater number of warriors is also a means to gain

Then they hoped to win with the help of Nigrisshi although he was weaker than Cabba base, sure.

Also, Nigrisshi who was once the strongest of Universe 3 modified Maji Kayo and managed to make it strong enough to fight Dyspo, but he was weaker than Cabba Base, sure.

what does it have to do? Nigrisshi was one of the strongest until the others were modified so that their relevance took second place to a support medium, there is no mistake.

Nigrisshi also has technological knowledge for what would have been equally important for the technological team.

and simple humans were modified to become androids 17 and 18 that are stronger than frieza.

no or there is error you invent it simply

The same thing that happened in the anime, Kale was established as stronger than Goku SSBLUE and then she could not defeat Goku God, but in anime you invent explanations that the series does not give.

Anilaza showed to be stronger than the 5 strongest warriors in Universe 7 together but Android 18 can withstand his attacks.

Android 18 supported the attacks of Anilaza that could send to fly to Goku SSGOD, but before to Android 18 threw it to the ground a kick of Majora that lost against Krillin, Krillin, Majora and Android 18 level SSGOD or more confirmed...

If Kefla's losing against Gohan had happened in the anime you would be inventing something like, "Vados was wrong or became retarded" like the anime gods who thought that their fighters weaker than Roshi or Android 18 could win a tournament in which were Goku and Toppo.

Or you would be saying "Gohan became very powerful before the tournament training and by script, during the Trunks arc he mentions that he was using the gravity room".

that I do not invent it that is clear in what is shown that these forms are notoriously different since it is not overloaded with energy.
in the tournament it is not allowed to kill ...
it's like saying cell does not kill mr satan. those things always been in DB
18 was eliminated by anilaza the rest you invented
Majora attacked by surprise
I would not continue thinking that this is nonsense. vados is a angel
It has nothing to do with one another ... I repeat that is not an argument, how it removes that kefla has been defeated by gohan with that?
and the majority seeks to win by greater number of warriors in the arena, strategies and skill. since that's how jiren ended up losing finally.
Do not put words in my mouth, I would not continue thinking that this is nonsense.

Goku also used the SSBLUE to kick Ribrianne and then she was defeated by Android 18, does Ribrianne have SSGOD level at least so that Goku will use that transformation against her?

that does not prove anything because ribrianne did not fight against the ssb was only beaten without resisting is how gohan defeat humans in ssj.

It does not matter if Kale resisted against Goku SSBLUE in episode 100 because later she could not against Goku God and that Kale was the one that merged with Caulifla and they formed Kefla that in normal form could defeat Goku God, which does not make sense.

Episode 100 Kale is stronger than Goku SSBLUE? Maybe, after that episode? NO, that's what matters.

kale 100 >>> kale 114
it is not overloaded with energy so it can be controlled

ehh? do you think that ssj1 is stronger than ssj2?
the change of appearance of kale is what indicates to you that the form that is using is inferior to the SSL plus it can be controlled given that it is not overloaded with energy

No, you are the justify everything to the anime but with the manga you adopt an ultra critical position, exaggerating his mistakes to try to make the manga look much more incoherent than the anime, even to the point of justifying Kefla's absurd power in the anime, but attacking her power in the manga.

you have jiren fighting against roshi in the manga I doubt very much that it can be said that it is not more incoherent
Are you really doing that because I speak of kefla? because to talk about kefla in the subject .. you are only diverting the subject without arguing, invented mistakes to defend the manga because apparently you hate the anime which does not matter to anyone
I think the manga made a better zamasu arc but it made a terrible top arc
I mean that because the other has errors, I have no right to criticize him? already leaves your attacks because sincerely you are invented many things because of again nothing of that has to do with what I said of kefla

[Lord Beerus]

I had something very detailed written, but when I wanted to post it, not only did the post not get submitted, but it wiped out my post completely. I don't have the energy to write out everything again, so I'll make the post more condescend to save time and prevent it from happening again:

Beerus - Keep his power a mystery and don't bring any comparisons of strength with other characters

Golden Freeza - Have him train for more than 4 months and treat him as an actual threat

Universe 6 - Wouldn't change anything

Goku Black/Zamasu - Give more context for Zamasu's fall from grace to make him a more sympathetic character

Kale/Caulifla/Kefla - Don't give Caulifla SSJ2. Give Kale a backstory that ties into how she tapped into her SSJ Berserker form and why she is low on confidence. Nerf Kefla's strength.

Jiren - Don't have the generic backstory of having his parents killed. Just have Jiren be a product of society in U11 -- in that he was conditioned to fight and train to become the strongest from an early age as part of his "obligation" to protect and serve U11.

Broly - Wouldn't change anything

[wolflonnie]

I had something very detailed written, but when I wanted to post it, not only did the post not get submitted, but it wiped out my post completely. I don't have the energy to write out everything again, so I'll make the post more condescend to save time and prevent it from happening again:

Beerus - Keep his power a mystery and don't bring any comparisons of strength with other characters

Golden Freeza - Have him train for more than 4 months and treat him as an actual threat

Universe 6 - Wouldn't change anything

Goku Black/Zamasu - Give more context for Zamasu's fall from grace to make him a more sympathetic character

Kale/Caulifla/Kefla - Don't give Caulifla SSJ2. Give Kale a backstory that ties into how she tapped into her SSJ Berserker form and why she is low on confidence. Nerf Kefla's strength.

Jiren - Don't have the generic backstory of having his parents killed. Just have Jiren be a product of society in U11 -- in that he was conditioned to fight and train to become the strongest from an early age as part of his "obligation" to protect and serve U11.

Broly - Wouldn't change anything

See I think that Frieza training for specifically 4 months works because we get a sense of how lucky that sob is, training 4 months and getting to that insane level is absurd and unfair, but it fits the character, weirdly enough.
I like your idea of Jiren

[Lord Beerus]

I had something very detailed written, but when I wanted to post it, not only did the post not get submitted, but it wiped out my post completely. I don't have the energy to write out everything again, so I'll make the post more condescend to save time and prevent it from happening again:

Beerus - Keep his power a mystery and don't bring any comparisons of strength with other characters

Golden Freeza - Have him train for more than 4 months and treat him as an actual threat

Universe 6 - Wouldn't change anything

Goku Black/Zamasu - Give more context for Zamasu's fall from grace to make him a more sympathetic character

Kale/Caulifla/Kefla - Don't give Caulifla SSJ2. Give Kale a backstory that ties into how she tapped into her SSJ Berserker form and why she is low on confidence. Nerf Kefla's strength.

Jiren - Don't have the generic backstory of having his parents killed. Just have Jiren be a product of society in U11 -- in that he was conditioned to fight and train to become the strongest from an early age as part of his "obligation" to protect and serve U11.

Broly - Wouldn't change anything

See I think that Frieza training for specifically 4 months works because we get a sense of how lucky that sob is, training 4 months and getting to that insane level is absurd and unfair, but it fits the character, weirdly enough.
I like your idea of Jiren

I went even further in my original-post-that-never-was.

I remarked that Jiren could have the background of being born with an absurdly high battle power, and in Universe 11, and Vermoud works with the Pride Troopers in secret to scout for the strongest individuals to join the Pride Troopers. They condition Jiren to the best, the strongest mortal in Universe 11 and the emotional anchor for which the Pride Troopers rely on

But in reality, he's just another cog in the wheel in the system to keep Universe 11 a safe haven. And the minute doesn't live up to expectation, he'll be discarded, and Vermound and the other Pride Troopers never disclose this to him. It's only through overhearing a conversion between Toppo and Vermoud that Jiren learns the truth about the disposable nature of the Pride Troopers. Which is why Jiren is so anti-social -- the people he's close to are all full of shit, so he naturally doesn't entertain the idea of being open to anybody.

You could even take it the extra step further and have the Pride Troopers portray this false sense of unity when working and then behind the scenes they are belligerent and hostile toward one another, due the pressure of being cut loose and cast aside.

The endgame to all of this would be that during the Tournament Of Power, and from fully understanding what's at stake, that the Pride Trooper, Vermoud and Jiren, truly grasp the importance of genuine camaraderie and fight together with some genuine sincerity and realise how much they mean to each other in dire situations.

[Tai Lung]

See I think that Frieza training for specifically 4 months works because we get a sense of how lucky that sob is, training 4 months and getting to that insane level is absurd and unfair, but it fits the character, weirdly enough.

really frieza needs is a better justification of why he did not do it before.
example
this as it shortens his life expectancy

Kale/Caulifla/Kefla - Don't give Caulifla SSJ2. Give Kale a backstory that ties into how she tapped into her SSJ Berserker form and why she is low on confidence.

if you remove caulifla the ssj 2 it is not justified that she is more powerful than cabba therefore a better option for fusion or the genius that supposedly should be that since goten and trunks had already got the ssj being younger

caulifla should have been introduced in U6 tournament if they do not like her to Advance so fast

[louisascommie]

Honestly the top should have gone full power creep and had evrey fighter in other universes be god level, for the u6 fighters in the first arc that weren't just say vados trained them since.

Don't bother with krillin roshi and tien

Have goten trunks and buu, have the wait from them leaning of them top to it actually happening be a few months so whis can catch the rest of the team up to goku and vegeta