Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Do people think the Halo Merged Zamasu is more powerful than the Goku who used Kaio-ken X10 against Hit in the Tournament?

And do people think that when Goku used Kaio-ken on Merged Zamasu that it was just X2?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Do people think the Halo Merged Zamasu is more powerful than the Goku who used Kaio-ken X10 against Hit in the Tournament?

And do people think that when Goku used Kaio-ken on Merged Zamasu that it was just X2?

With regards to the initial Merged Zamasu, I follow the manga's logic for the anime of him being stronger than regular SSB, but only equalling the strongest version of SSB by the end of the Tournament of Power a.k.a. twice as strong.

So, KaiokenX2 is indeed what I think Goku used against Merged Zamasu, and by the end of the Tournament of Power, SSB Goku and Vegeta are twice as strong as they were in the Future Trunks Arc and as strong as Merged Zamasu.

[SupremeKai25]

Do people think the Halo Merged Zamasu is more powerful than the Goku who used Kaio-ken X10 against Hit in the Tournament?

Halo Fused Zamasu was pretty much the strongest being on Earth upon his birth. He was so powerful that his mere existence surpassed even the Gods' understanding, and his Light confused Vegeta who had never seen anyone, God or mortal, emit such godly power. Make no mistake, Fused Zamasu could have easily annihilated his enemies, but he was just toying with them since he was extremely arrogant and confident, he never thought that he could be defeated. So, No, I'm pretty sure that Fused Zamasu was stronger than any version of Goku and Vegeta until the Tournament of Power arc.

Indeed, when you look at Goku using Kaio-ken to free himself from Fused Zamasu's grasp, I'd say he managed to do so only because Fused Zamasu wasn't expecting Goku to use Kaio-ken and he was still shocked by half of his face being blown away. I don't think he was weaker. But even from a logical standpoint, Fused Zamasu was the final villain of the Future Trunks arc, it wouldn't make any narrative sense whatsoever for him to be weaker than a form of the protagonist used in the previous arc.

[ZombieVito]

Do people think the Halo Merged Zamasu is more powerful than the Goku who used Kaio-ken X10 against Hit in the Tournament?

And do people think that when Goku used Kaio-ken on Merged Zamasu that it was just X2?

Yes. Halo Zamasu is stronger than that Goku. Vegeta even says he has never felt a power that strong.

I think it's X10. The preview for the episode said Goku uses a life risking attack and he only got that Ki disorder thing because he used the X10 version and Kaio warned him to not do that or he might destroy his Ki.

[ruler9871]

That was before the Ribrianne fight, and Krillin in the ToP is WAY stronger than he ever was in Z (as shown when he matched Base Gohan, who gave Lavender trouble in the preliminaries, who is stronger or equal to Basil, who fought on par with a Post-Buu saga Fat Buu).

Buu was stronger than even ssj Gohan imo, and Basil was weaker than Buu even with the steroid power up. And there is no evidence Buu is any stronger than he was during the Buu saga. Krillin only beat base Gohan with skill, and a few arcs prior he was scared of Frieza soldiers. Krillin got stronger than he was during Z, but he was still weaker than any ssj.

1. There's no evidence that Current Buu > Current SSJ Gohan.
2. Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku when recruiting him, so there's no way he isn't any stronger than he was in Z other than headcanon.
3. "Skill" is overrated in Dragonball. It only makes a difference if 2 characters are at least near-equals. So if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power.
4. There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito). That's just your headcanon.

[Bullza]

Yes. Halo Zamasu is stronger than that Goku. Vegeta even says he has never felt a power that strong.

Well his exact wording was "Sure he may be a god but I've never seen anyone release Ki like that before".

I don't know if he's referring to him being strong or how he'd just performed the Blades of Judgement and fired off a bunch of energy in a fairly unique way. Saying "like that" sounds like he'd something he'd just done.

Then Gowasu says "I've never seen the power of this great." and Shin agrees. Again not sure what the power of light is supposed to be in particular.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Considering Base cumber in the game was stated to be stronger than. Beerus and ToP Jiren.

Can you provide a source for that?

https://youtu.be/3JONVAwaWYg?t=152

"His strength is different from Beerus-sama's and Jiren's... it's getting me pretty excited!"

Note he relates their strengths in an ambiguous manner (違う強さ). Not the same thing as saying Cumber > Beerus and Jiren. I believe it was alluding to Cumber's evil ki more than anything else.

Its likely pretty much to do with strength. Beerus and jiren being mentioned in comparison seals the deal, since you know, ToP jiren and beerus are top tier god of destruction level foes. The fact that his base/ssj form can match ssb vegito, who should be above ssb gogeta (maybe equal if we take that promotional statement), who is decently above broly, who is probably stronger than beerus supports that even more.

[Rakurai]

Its likely pretty much to do with strength. Beerus and jiren being mentioned in comparison seals the deal, since you know, ToP jiren and beerus are top tier god of destruction level foes. The fact that his base/ssj form can match ssb vegito, who should be above ssb gogeta (maybe equal if we take that promotional statement), who is decently above broly, who is probably stronger than beerus supports that even more.

Yeah a "different" strength. Again, not the same as saying Cumber > ToP Jiren or Beerus. If the game wanted to make that clear, it would have as with other cases.

It's already been proven FP Jiren > FP SSJ3 Cumber. There is no indication Jiren got stronger after the ToP.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Its likely pretty much to do with strength. Beerus and jiren being mentioned in comparison seals the deal, since you know, ToP jiren and beerus are top tier god of destruction level foes. The fact that his base/ssj form can match ssb vegito, who should be above ssb gogeta (maybe equal if we take that promotional statement), who is decently above broly, who is probably stronger than beerus supports that even more.

Yeah a "different" strength. Again, not the same as saying Cumber > ToP Jiren or Beerus. If the game wanted to make that clear, it would have as with other cases.

It's already been proven FP Jiren > FP SSJ3 Cumber. There is no indication Jiren got stronger after the ToP.

I gotta say, I think this angle has some merit. Beerus is goofy but also greatly irritable, while Jiren is stoic and serious.

Cumber? He's insane and evil. It's like how Whis and Beerus compared Goku Black's Ki to Zamasu's.

[Hugo Boss]

Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku

if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power

There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito)

Do you think Krillin can fight Majin Boo?

[dragon boss z]

1. There's no evidence that Current Buu > Current SSJ Gohan.
2. Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku when recruiting him, so there's no way he isn't any stronger than he was in Z other than headcanon.
3. "Skill" is overrated in Dragonball. It only makes a difference if 2 characters are at least near-equals. So if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power.
4. There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito). That's just your headcanon.

1. Buu beat a stronger opponent than ssj Gohan tied with.
2. That was skinny Buu.
3. So I guess Roshi is almost as strong as Jiren since he was dodging him in the manga?
4. Lmao, Krillin's power is obviously going to be head canon no matter where you put him. Don't act like your opinion is the more logical one, and that you aren't using head canon. Krillin was literally hiding from bullets a few episodes before the ToP. It's just inconsistent writing and them trying to give Krillin his moment to shine. In the manga he was just instantly beaten without doing anything. He was most likely never meant to be stronger than any ssj, and I doubt any writer for super actually thought that. Yes, the power creep argument could be used, but overall Krillin shouldn't be considered that strong. To say he went from having trouble with Frieza soldiers to being stronger than ssj Goku or final form Frieza in just a few years of not even training that much is ridiculous. If he couldn't reach that level training for the androids or over the 7 year gap to the Buu saga, what makes you think he can magically do it now?

[ruler9871]

1. There's no evidence that Current Buu > Current SSJ Gohan.
2. Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku when recruiting him, so there's no way he isn't any stronger than he was in Z other than headcanon.
3. "Skill" is overrated in Dragonball. It only makes a difference if 2 characters are at least near-equals. So if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power.
4. There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito). That's just your headcanon.

1. Buu beat a stronger opponent than ssj Gohan tied with.
2. That was skinny Buu.
3. So I guess Roshi is almost as strong as Jiren since he was dodging him in the manga?
4. Lmao, Krillin's power is obviously going to be head canon no matter where you put him. Don't act like your opinion is the more logical one, and that you aren't using head canon. Krillin was literally hiding from bullets a few episodes before the ToP. It's just inconsistent writing and them trying to give Krillin his moment to shine. In the manga he was just instantly beaten without doing anything. He was most likely never meant to be stronger than any ssj, and I doubt any writer for super actually thought that. Yes, the power creep argument could be used, but overall Krillin shouldn't be considered that strong. To say he went from having trouble with Frieza soldiers to being stronger than ssj Goku or final form Frieza in just a few years of not even training that much is ridiculous. If he couldn't reach that level training for the androids or over the 7 year gap to the Buu saga, what makes you think he can magically do it now?

1. Lavender>>Basil.
2. Skinny Buu was never stated to be a transformation over Fat Buu. Even if it was, transformations are not tiers. So to say Fat Buu is still only as strong as he was in Z (despite training) is still false.
3. Jiren wasn't even trying against Roshi in the manga. The moment Jiren actually puts effort against Roshi he one-shots him with a tap.
4. You are committing the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you think something is ridiculous in a story doesn't mean it isn't valid. Crazy asspull power gains are common in Super (both versions), so there's nothing saying Krillin didn't one just in time for the ToP (with feats showing that he has).

[ruler9871]

Buu was able to match an Early ToP Base Goku

if ToP Krillin was able to beat a ToP Base Gohan at all, then he would have to relative to be him in power

There is no evidence that ToP Krillin is still weaker than any SSJ1 from Z (except Buu arc Vegito)

Do you think Krillin can fight Majin Boo?

If he can avoid getting adsorbed.

[dragon boss z]

1. Lavender>>Basil.
2. Skinny Buu was never stated to be a transformation over Fat Buu. Even if it was, transformations are not tiers. So to say Fat Buu is still only as strong as he was in Z (despite training) is still false.
3. Jiren wasn't even trying against Roshi in the manga. The moment Jiren actually puts effort against Roshi he one-shots him with a tap.
4. You are committing the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you think something is ridiculous in a story doesn't mean it isn't valid. Crazy asspull power gains are common in Super (both versions), so there's nothing saying Krillin didn't one just in time for the ToP (with feats showing that he has).

1.Drugged Basil>>Lavender
2. It' s not a transformation, it's just a trained version of him. Buu didn't become that strong until after training.
3. And Gohan wasn't really trying to hurt Krillin or anything, and Krillin only won by blinding Gohan and knocking him out of bounds.
4. There is nothing Krillin did power wise namek ssj Goku couldn't do.

[ruler9871]

1. Lavender>>Basil.
2. Skinny Buu was never stated to be a transformation over Fat Buu. Even if it was, transformations are not tiers. So to say Fat Buu is still only as strong as he was in Z (despite training) is still false.
3. Jiren wasn't even trying against Roshi in the manga. The moment Jiren actually puts effort against Roshi he one-shots him with a tap.
4. You are committing the Appeal to Incredulity fallacy. Just because you think something is ridiculous in a story doesn't mean it isn't valid. Crazy asspull power gains are common in Super (both versions), so there's nothing saying Krillin didn't one just in time for the ToP (with feats showing that he has).

1.Drugged Basil>>Lavender
2. It' s not a transformation, it's just a trained version of him. Buu didn't become that strong until after training.
3. And Gohan wasn't really trying to hurt Krillin or anything, and Krillin only won by blinding Gohan and knocking him out of bounds.
4. There is nothing Krillin did power wise namek ssj Goku couldn't do.

1. Is there any statesments/source that says drugged Basil>>Lavender?
2. If that's the case then it further proves my point, since the Slim Buu fight with Goku was before the fight with Basil.
3. Base Gohan went all out. Nothing says that he didn't.
4. Krillin beat down Majora, a guy who A18 early in the ToP (who is better than she was in Z due to training) was struggling with. That automatically puts Current Krillin at least above any Grade 1 SSJ from Z (except Vegito & maybe Gotenks).

[Grand Marshal 1]

Do people think the Halo Merged Zamasu is more powerful than the Goku who used Kaio-ken X10 against Hit in the Tournament?

And do people think that when Goku used Kaio-ken on Merged Zamasu that it was just X2?

I won't really elaborate on the first question, but the second one, I can answer with certanty.

After the Tournament of the Destroyers, Goku experienced an extreme version of Ki disorder. The Future Trunks arc is chronologically placed within some months after the events with U6, but Goku felt the effects of that problem for a long time.

Furthermore, it would be impossible for Goku to learn how to use the stable variant of Kaio Ken ×10, let alone re-activate it after such a short period of time. When he used it against Hit, he clearly had mastered the stable version for the regular Kaio Ken, but he tried the ×10 variant for the first time.

As such, when against Merged Zamasu, Goku must have used a Kaio Ken ×2, due to him not having enough time to train with the form, as he was preoccupied with other events. Nonetheless, I can't disregard the fact that it could have been a Kaio Ken of higher degree, within the levels of possibility of course, such as a ×3, ×4 or a ×5.

[Bullza]

Well I can see Merged Zamasu being stronger than Goku at the Tournament so let's put it a simple way. If

Super Saiyan Blue Goku = 1
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X10 = 10
Halo Zamasu = 11

Then what is the Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta that fought Halo Zamasu?

[dragon boss z]

1. Is there any statesments/source that says drugged Basil>>Lavender?
2. If that's the case then it further proves my point, since the Slim Buu fight with Goku was before the fight with Basil.
3. Base Gohan went all out. Nothing says that he didn't.
4. Krillin beat down Majora, a guy who A18 early in the ToP (who is better than she was in Z due to training) was struggling with. That automatically puts Current Krillin at least above any Grade 1 SSJ from Z (except Vegito & maybe Gotenks).

1. Why wouldn't he be. Basil and Lavender should be comparable, and they seemed about the same strength during the ToP. You could argue that Lavender is still more dangerous due to his poison, but in raw power drugged Basil should be stronger.
2. What? The fight with Slim Buu was after the fight with Basil...
3. Krillin said something about Gohan holding back, and then Gohan easily knocked him away, then Krilin used solar flare and caught Gohan off gurad.
4. Majora only hit 18 when she was standing there not even fighting. Then Krillin beat him by using his stinky shoe. Doesn't really prove anything.

[ruler9871]

1. Is there any statesments/source that says drugged Basil>>Lavender?
2. If that's the case then it further proves my point, since the Slim Buu fight with Goku was before the fight with Basil.
3. Base Gohan went all out. Nothing says that he didn't.
4. Krillin beat down Majora, a guy who A18 early in the ToP (who is better than she was in Z due to training) was struggling with. That automatically puts Current Krillin at least above any Grade 1 SSJ from Z (except Vegito & maybe Gotenks).

1. Why wouldn't he be. Basil and Lavender should be comparable, and they seemed about the same strength during the ToP. You could argue that Lavender is still more dangerous due to his poison, but in raw power drugged Basil should be stronger.
2. What? The fight with Slim Buu was after the fight with Basil...
3. Krillin said something about Gohan holding back, and then Gohan easily knocked him away, then Krilin used solar flare and caught Gohan off gurad.
4. Majora only hit 18 when she was standing there not even fighting. Then Krillin beat him by using his stinky shoe. Doesn't really prove anything.

1. Still, nothing points to Basil (the youngest brother) being stronger than Lavender.
2. Either way, it puts Good Buu way above what he was in Z.
3. He was holding back because he didn't use SSJ or Mystic. Nothing about him not using his full base power.
4. A18 was on guard. She blocked a full on attack from Majora and got knocked down. The fact that Krillin could beat a character who could pull that off proves that Krillin now is much stronger than the early SSJs from Z.

[ZombieVito]

Well I can see Merged Zamasu being stronger than Goku at the Tournament so let's put it a simple way. If

Super Saiyan Blue Goku = 1
Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaio-ken X10 = 10
Halo Zamasu = 11

Then what is the Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta that fought Halo Zamasu?

Not even a 2.