Vic Mignogna

[JulieYBM]

The insistent use of SJW as a pejorative makes me want to challenge them on why it is they feel being for social justice is wrong. There's no real substance being discussed here.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The insistent use of SJW as a pejorative makes me want to challenge them on why it is they feel being for social justice is wrong. There's no real substance being discussed here.

I think some people use the term "social justice warrior" (or "SJW") as a pejorative because it has, for many, come to mean, "somebody who is royally pissed off at the slightest thing that is politically incorrect and acts like they're incredibly emotionally invested in a cause that doesn't directly concern them."

And hey, in all fairness, there are people like that. That said, it has been my experience that most of the time that term is used, it's being used by some vile human being who wants to feel justified saying and doing some pretty awful things.

[miguelnuva1]

The insistent use of SJW as a pejorative makes me want to challenge them on why it is they feel being for social justice is wrong. There's no real substance being discussed here.

I think the term is for the people that take wanting social justice too far. For everyone good cause there is always someone who ruins it.

[Akamay]

Being someone in favor of social justice is not necessarily something bad, but attacking people in the name of it is.

For example, you see someone being racist towards someone else and you call them out. In that case you acted in favor of social justice without being a jerk about it.
Now let's say you instead decide to dox the person, call their workplace and convince them to fire the guy, spread their information online to millions of people and have a bunch of people harass his family constantly.
Yeah the guy was wrong for acting racist, but trying to actively ruin the person's life is going a bit too far, especially if you were not the target of that person's actions, no?

No matter how bad the actions of someone were, people who are not involved in the case are not exactly the best ones to be passing judgement.

In Vic's case, most of the people that seem to be the most vocal about the case cannot prove that Vic is guilty nor they can prove that he is innocent.
Most what you see is people drawing their own conclusions based on incomplete information and going all out against the people that had a different conclusion.

[Bryesque]

The insistent use of SJW as a pejorative makes me want to challenge them on why it is they feel being for social justice is wrong. There's no real substance being discussed here.

I think the term is for the people that take wanting social justice too far. For everyone good cause there is always someone who ruins it.

The term originated in social justice circles, often as a straight-forward descriptor, but occasionally as a way of ribbing activists who got a little too serious, I believe. And like everything remotely clever-sounding in their glossary, the right-wingers stole and co-opted it to use against... well, anyone they don't like.

[Kunzait_83]

I think some people use the term "social justice warrior" (or "SJW") as a pejorative because it has, for many, come to mean, "somebody who is royally pissed off at the slightest thing that is politically incorrect and acts like they're incredibly emotionally invested in a cause that doesn't directly concern them."

I've gone into my thoughts on the SJW label in a fair amount of detail already a number of pages back in this thread.

That said however, I do want to take issue with the idea that "someone not being directly affected by an issue" means that they somehow have no business being upset by it or wanting to get involved to help. There are COUNTLESS issues in the world that do not directly (or at least do not immediately) impact many of us that are nonetheless WELL worth getting involved in and getting invested in because they are clearly and unequivocally the right things to do and will GREATLY help and benefit millions upon millions of people that you may well never meet or talk to personally.

The genocide in Yemen being an excellent example, and just one of COUNTLESS many.

Obviously HOW you get involved and WHAT specifically you do to try to help are indeed absolutely KEY questions that are not at all to be dismissed and make a HUGE amount of difference in how ultimately helpful and constructive you're actually going to be with regards to these various issues and to the people whom they DO directly impact most immediately.

That said though, If you're someone who genuinely believes that no problem in the world is worth taking an interest in or taking action on unless it directly impacts or affects you personally in some way... that is a DEEPLY troubling and tremendously unhealthy and emotionally crippling character defect that I would GREATLY stress taking a lot of time to look inward on and address in one's personal life. Worst and most extreme case scenario, it can even be indicative of some type of narcissistic personality disorder or general sociopathy.

Not saying that Black Paladin is promoting this idea mind you: but the notion that "Why are you so invested in this when it doesn't impact you in any way?" is indeed one of the key arguments made by those who over-abuse terms like SJW and argue against Social Justice as a general concept. And I don't think its in any way at all coincidental that many of the most ardently vitriolic anti-SJW/Redpill/MRA/alt-right/GamerGate-type voices online seem to routinely demonstrate numerous characteristics of a Narcissistic Personality or broader Sociopathy.

And all that's not even getting into the fact that, by and large, most serious problems throughout the world actually DO have a way of eventually, by hook or by crook, coming around and impacting ALL OF US in some manner somewhere down the line.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I think some people use the term "social justice warrior" (or "SJW") as a pejorative because it has, for many, come to mean, "somebody who is royally pissed off at the slightest thing that is politically incorrect and acts like they're incredibly emotionally invested in a cause that doesn't directly concern them."

I've gone into my thoughts on the SJW label in a fair amount of detail already a number of pages back in this thread.

That said however, I do want to take issue with the idea that "someone not being directly affected by an issue" means that they somehow have no business being upset by it or wanting to get involved to help. There are COUNTLESS issues in the world that do not directly (or at least do not immediately) impact many of us that are nonetheless WELL worth getting involved in and getting invested in because they are clearly and unequivocally the right things to do and will GREATLY help and benefit millions upon millions of people that you may well never meet or talk to personally.

The genocide in Yemen being an excellent example, and just one of COUNTLESS many.

Oh, I completely agree! I was simply trying to articulate what (I think) the people who use "SJW" as a pejorative think of the people they label as "SJWs." You're absolutely right, there are plenty of causes worth taking up even if they don't directly affect you.

[Cursed Lemon]

[Kunzait_83]

Largely agreed with the sentiment here, except weaboos in general have been on the MAGA train in huge numbers pretty much from the getgo of Trump's candidacy back in 2015. This Vic thing is more specifically tied to DB fandom, which hasn't until now had a Redpill-tinged controversy directly impact it to this significant of a degree. So to be slightly more accurate: "IStandWithVic" is "Make America Great Again" for DBZ fans. Not that there isn't SIGNIFICANT fucking overlap here, mind you (in Venn diagram terms, its almost a perfect circle).

Forgive the "Well acshully" pedantry here, but I just think its worth never losing sight of the whole "Kawaiicaust" aspect of the alt-right movement and how significant a role its been playing in internet political discourse for quite some years now.

[Kokonoe]

I'm just going to be honest. As long as "SJW" is allowed to be used freely here unironically then this place is not a place I can really feel comfortable with.

[MetaMoss]

I've just caught myself up on all of this, and whew boy, this is a lot. Though, since these allegations span well over a decade, I guess I shouldn't be surprised about how complicated it all is. My initial hot take: I already believed Twitter to be a scourge on modern society, and this whole thing is only reinforcing that belief.

It's damn frustrating to see that a person whose work you've enjoyed has hurt people in the way Vic has. It's infuriating to see that this conduct was known about for a long while, yet wasn't acted on until recently. Don't even get me started on the folks who are using this as an opportunity to further whatever bullshit they want to push. Yet, the fact that Rial and others finally felt safe and bold enough to bring this out into the open means to me that there's at least some hope.

But seriously, what is up with Kamehacon?

[Gligarman]

I'm just going to be honest. As long as "SJW" is allowed to be used freely here unironically then this place is not a place I can really feel comfortable with.

I've found that the people that use that label are generally the type that feel that their opinion is the only one that matters. That's why I can't take them seriously.

As for the recent convention debacle, fine. They want Vic so badly, now they got him. It's their responsibility to handle the backlash. But if anyone is dumb enough to let their kids take pictures with this guy please refrain from any further breeding.

[Shaddy]

I mean, I've seen it almost exclusively used in quoting or explaining the rhetoric of Vic's supporters, at least in this thread. The only other times I remember seeing it were when that "dying a man's death" tangent came up in the Broly thread, and that guy zarmack who jumped to shout it at me whenever I brought up the implication that maybe Dragon Ball isn't always the most aware of modern social trends, or some things have aged poorly in that regard. Well, and in a lot of the earlier pages of this thread, before those people were either warned about not being dipshits, or banned.

Regardless, I think banning the term, and in fact most terms, even on here, is giving us a narrower view of what people act like and who we could be interacting with at any given time. Part of the reason I appreciate this thread (mostly) is that not only is it a good resource for news, discussion and keeping track of the ongoing disaster that is Vic Mignogna, but it showed a totally different side of some of the users here, which in many cases allowed the mods and community as a whole to weed out a few of it's more toxic members. Not being allowed to call someone a stupid word by the forum's rules wouldn't make them not have those unfortunate opinions and/or personality disorders. Allowing them to make that mistake is the easiest way to get them out of here, and thus not represent this community with their shitfits.

[KBABZ]

Allowing them to make that mistake is the easiest way to get them out of here, and thus not represent this community with their shitfits.

Well at least until their alts showed up. Seriously, we have a couple of effectively-new users here whose accounts were made like seven years ago, which is incredibly suspicious to me!

[ssj4]

My rule is to never take anyone who uses SJW seriously.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think VegettoEX despises the term SJW and doesnt take kindly to anyone using it.

[miguelnuva1]

I'm just going to be honest. As long as "SJW" is allowed to be used freely here unironically then this place is not a place I can really feel comfortable with.

I've found that the people that use that label are generally the type that feel that their opinion is the only one that matters. That's why I can't take them seriously.

As for the recent convention debacle, fine. They want Vic so badly, now they got him. It's their responsibility to handle the backlash. But if anyone is dumb enough to let their kids take pictures with this guy please refrain from any further breeding.

Were not being any better than the other side by teeling them not to breed because of stupid choices they make. Everyone needs people of opposite gender so that we can teach others who to avoid and how to deal with them hopefully in a non violent way.

[Kunzait_83]

I'm just going to be honest. As long as "SJW" is allowed to be used freely here unironically then this place is not a place I can really feel comfortable with.

I mean... I dunno what to tell you. There DOES in fact exist a subset of people in the political landscape who DO actual "boy who cried wolf" outrage over bullshit nonsense under the pretense that its somehow "racist". That IS a real thing. Now is it an ACTUAL "serious problem" that is somehow this "massive threat to free speech in America"? Of fucking COURSE its not, obviously. It takes a TITANIC level of ignorance, gullibility, and outright stupidity to fall for that particular gaslight.

Nonetheless though.... there ARE unfortunately a LOT of deeply ignorant, deeply gullible, and deeply stupid people on the internet, and have been for literally decades now (see: The Bubble we were talking about a few pages ago), and the far right wing have successfully demonized what is effectively maybe a small couple thousand or so college campus activists across the United States who take genuinely real, incredibly serious social issues (racism, misogyny, class disparity, hate crimes, etc) and trivialize them by making the hyper-nitpicking of dumb Hollywood movies and video games the sum total of their "activism" and lobbing the charge of "racist" and "sexist" even at things that are honestly, genuinely NOT really deserving of those labels (or at a bare minimum, not to the point where they're in ANY WAY worth making them the frontline issues of your activism) and parlayed them into being THE critical political issue of our time in the minds of COUNTLESS dumbass ignorant online dorks who's entire worldview growing up was largely cultivated from bad kids' media and dense RPGs.

In practice, what the kinds of people that the term SJW is describing (overzealous college campus activists who's basic understandings of key issues might be sound, but who's frontline priorities and tactics are badly askew and not well thought through) have basically done is made themselves into such living caricatures that they've acted as the most effective strawmen for far right wing (and outright fascist) hate groups to utilize as props for their own propaganda and thus as effective tools to indoctrinate an entire SWATH of heavily online people (very often, not not necessarily exclusively, white males in their teens and 20s) who most frequent geek and nerd media spaces and are often INCREDIBLY sheltered and insulated from the realities of the outside world.

Obviously the term SJW has largely and overwhelmingly been used in service of that strawman and in service of that mass indoctrination of young, sheltered millennial suburban nerds into actual, literal "Exterminate all the Gays/Black/Jews" Neo Nazis: but that SJW strawman, bullshit as it overall certainly is, DOES have at least a TOE dipped in a certain reality. Granted, the actual real world impact of those people whom it describes is in reality TOTALLY inconsequential, to the point of being outright laughable: but they DO exist, and their existence IS being used as a political tool by online extremists to bolster their (lunatic and bullshit) arguments and indoctrinate MORE young, sheltered, gullible suckers into their ranks.

And yes: there are indeed various users on this very forum right now who are UNQUESTIONABLY among those very gullible suckers who've fallen for the obvious con of this type of propaganda. Lets not let anyone kid themselves: the people whom have proven some of the most susceptible and fertile to this particular grift have indeed been young and (usually, but again not necessarily ALWAYS) white male middle or upper middle-class suburban Otaku, Weaboos, and gamers who populate fandoms and forums exactly and precisely like this one here.

Once again: the idea that Social Justice Warriors - in the sense of the stereotype of "stuck up, humorless, elitist liberal college students with dyed hair who promote outright misandry and are so gung-ho about fighting against racism that they'll go as far as trying to shame ALL white men collectively just for being white men and existing" - are either THE single biggest problem facing the world today (or even just A significant problem facing the world today AT ALL) or that they even encompass ANY kind of a majority, much less the ENTIRETY of, the left of the current political spectrum - is a TOTAL and outright OBVIOUS fucking lie that is deliberately manufactured and used by actual racist hate groups as their latest scam tactic to indoctrinate young people into their ranks.

Does that lie also mean that those kinds of people DON'T EXIST AT ALL? Of course it doesn't. Those kinds of over-the-top, overzealous, over-eager college campus activists who have their hearts generally in the right place and on the right general issues, but who's sense of priorities and tactics are COMPLETELY fucking wrong, immature, and dumb as shit... not only do they exist, but guess what guys? They've ALWAYS existed since even decades before I was fucking born. SJW's have ALWAYS been around: not under that name obviously, but the very same type of person has ALWAYS been a staple of NUMEROUS college campuses across North America for almost as long as college campuses have been around.

Part of the current bullshit right wing narrative about SJWs is that they're somehow this new and uniquely fresh and different phenomenon that started among millennials in the social media era. That, like with so much else from these right wing groups, is COMPLETELY untrue and antithetical to history and reality.

Even speaking from my own personal experience: I've lived most of my life not too terribly far away from Yale, one of THE most elite and prestige colleges in all of North America and the world, as well as its surrounding college community. Literally for as long as I've been alive, I've lived among and interacted DAILY with Yale students going back 30 fucking years ago now: and you bet that a VAST, sizable chunk of those people have, in various ways and to various extremes, totally and unquestionably fit the SJW archetype to the letter.

Even though the term SJW was obviously not a thing when I was a kid growing up, the concept and the type of person that it describes ABSOLUTELY was: and it was SO old hat and SO well known to the average person that even by the time I was a very little kid that it had long been a pop cultural punch line. One that Hollywood was even making mainstream movies satirizing.

What the far right in the current era have taken advantage of is The Bubble we talked about earlier: the INSANE amount of sheltering and insulation that WAY too many young millennial (and very often suburban) dudes were raised with (and indeed often take with them into adulthood) in order to convince them that college campus activists who are kind of silly, naive, immature, and stupid about the manner in how they go about their activism is somehow this "radically new and scarily threatening" phenomenon that is endangering democracy and freedom of speech in American (and even Western) society as a whole.

When in reality: the ONLY thing that has changed about the stereotypical SJW (besides the proliferation of SJW itself as a term used to describe them) is that they now have social media in which to go through that awkward, embarrassing, and cringe-inducing phase of their late teens/early 20s in front of the entire world: including perhaps parts of the country that don't or never had a college community nearby them and have thus perhaps never been personally exposed firsthand to what is and always has been ultimately a COMPLETELY normal and altogether harmless (if fairly irritating and cringy) part of many people's growing up and path towards maturity.

Now using overzealous college campus activists as a handy strawman in which to disingenuously oversimplify and outright lie about ALL left political ideas is NOT a new tactic for the far right: they've been pulling that kind of crap since at least the 1960s, and certainly throughout the 1980s and 90s when I was growing up and getting into politics myself. Of course back then (at least in the 80s and 90s anyway), not very many people in the mainstream public discourse were generally buying it: because it was SUCH an obviously and demonstrably stupid, asinine argument to make that anyone with two eyes to see in front of them and two brain cells to run together could easily see right past it.

What IS new to this political era we're in now however is the right wing having such a MASSIVE crop of fresh, fertile, media-sheltered young dudes (and indeed, in many cases do indeed tend to be somewhere on the spectrum, which DOES actually play a role in things) with rooms covered wall to wall in anime and video game paraphernalia, and who in large part have before recently mostly given almost ZERO serious attention or thought to real world politics, modern history, and important events, in which to act as the kind of blank slate suckers and empty-headed vessels in which to fill with their bogus, ahistorical nonsense and alternate-reality reading of modern events.

This is, at least partly, how a once largely apolitical geek-media sphere was able to so easily - and just within the past decade and change - become radicalized and conned into buying wholesale into some of the oldest and most thoroughly debunked far right fascist/racist/misogynistic conspiracy woo and outright deranged, lunatic fringe wacko fantasies of the KKK, the John Birch Society, and Neo Nazi groups.

All of which is to say: do I personally like the term SJW? Absolutely not, I don't: for one, because, as I explained pages ago, even from an etymological standpoint its massively idiotic and wrong (social justice is a bad thing that people SHOULD NOT be fighting for because....?). And secondly, because yes, the term and concept has been so effectively and thoroughly abused to help more or less basically outright BRAINWASH an entire sizable subset of the current generation of young people into vociferously believing in and actively supporting (and sometimes do outright physical real world violence and terrorism in the name of) outright Neo Nazi and Neo Fascist agendas that are pure, capitol E Evil and INCREDIBLY dangerous and harmful to the lives of MILLIONS.

However: like it or not, the type of person that the term SJW is used to describe DOES technically exist. And while their existence, in and of itself, is in NO way any kind of genuine, serious problem or threat to anyone anywhere (at worst they're just a pain in the ass for their college's faculty to deal with: hardly life-threatening stuff here), their existence and this newest term to describe them have unfortunately been an INSTRUMENTAL part of the current day far right fascist movement's overall propaganda and a key starting point in radicalizing and indoctrinating fresh, young, and deeply naive recruits into their insane cult of a movement.

So sadly, much as many of us may hate it, there really ISN'T any getting around just USING the term in these kinds of discussions. What ultimately matters though is HOW you're using it and WHAT exactly you're using it to describe. That to me makes ALL the difference in the world.

[Bryesque]

So Nick Reketia is resorting to blackmail right now

https://twitter.com/renfamous/status/11 ... 36928?s=21

Twitter: "HE NEVER SAID IT WAS A KAMEHACON CONTRACT, STOP REACHING LIBTARDS"

Why...would he post it...if it has nothing to do with the current situation...

Because he knew that making an inferred claim like that would get him attention, and that's what he really trades in. He's an outrage merchant who kicks up bullshit for attention.

Just google the guy. He's a nobody lawyer from a town of 1200, and his office appears to be in a tiny industrial shack.



He's as far from reputable as it gets. But he's managed to hitch his wagon to every right-wing "culture war" campaign he can to try to boost his cache. And sadly it's actually worked out for him because he's the best they can do.

[louisascommie]

The insistent use of SJW as a pejorative makes me want to challenge them on why it is they feel being for social justice is wrong. There's no real substance being discussed here.

I think the term is for the people that take wanting social justice too far. For everyone good cause there is always someone who ruins it.

The term new has been a right wing Chud insult since the first half if this decade

Only concern trolls earnestly bring up some better original use of it, and people that aren't in the know that don't fully understand it too