Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I know that broly has been the only one officially stated to be probably stronger than beerus

This was said by Goku, who doesn’t know Beerus’ true prowess and only has a slight notion of how strong a God of Destruction is. So far, there is no solid statement about how he compares to anyone. There are just predictions that Goku and Vegeta will become a formidable opponent for him.

it was mentioned several times that it was a power that even GoDs don't have.

This is not accurate. It was said Ultra Instinct is a state the Gods can’t easily attain. Keyword here “easily”. It’s implied Beerus had experienced that state and we don’t know in which step he is right now, just not perfect. And episodes 130 and 131 of the anime are very clear about Goku not having mastered Ultra Instinct. You can’t master something you can’t easily attain. This is a DB Heroes thing for Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Btw, anyone here thinks that FT arc vegito blue may be in brolys league? They were both stated to probably surpass beerus. Or does he get easily stomped.

[PFM18]

Btw, anyone here thinks that FT arc vegito blue may be in brolys league? They were both stated to probably surpass beerus. Or does he get easily stomped.

In the anime no such comment exists. Even in the manga Kaioshin did not say "hes probably stronger than Beerus" he just acknowledged it as a possibility.

[HeroR]

Beerus can only use UI as a technique, not a power-up.

There is currently nothing that suggest Beerus is still stronger than MUI Goku, Awakened Jiren and Full Power Broly.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that, it was advertised as a technique but it works as power-up for Goku. There is no reason to assume it would be different with Beerus, specially when he is the first one that recognized the silver shining of the form. To be more precise, there is currently nothing that suggests Beerus (without Ultra Instinct) is stronger than Goku, Jiren and Broly. But he is in a untouchable position until Goku and Vegeta become his formidable opponent.

In the manga, Beerus used a form of UI without any outward change. So it points to UI being a form for Goku, not the gods. Especially when Beerus’ power didn’t jump like Goku’s when he goes into Omen.

[HeroR]

I’m not sure what you are trying to say, but since Beerus never showed what he is truly capable of, these comparisons are pointless. Let’s wait until we see Goku or Vegeta fight him again.

The "we never seen Beerus at full power" argument Beerus fans constantly make doesn't work. If a character is officially stated to be stronger than another, it doesn't matter if we never saw the weaker guy at full power.

There is no official statement about this.

There kinda is with Whis.

Namely, Whis said that there’s a mortal that a God of Destruction can’t beat and that god happened to be stronger than Beerus. Than Whis repeated the rumor when he saw Jiren. Here is the exact context.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KtRte5RF_AY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kKA6xOlkKWM

So according to Whis who should know Beerus’ power better than anyone, Jiren > Beerus. And that’s not taking his limiting breaking power from 130 into account.

There isn’t too many ways to interpret Whis’ statement other than saying he was wrong for some reason or trolling, which doesn’t match either scene in question.

If Jiren is suggested to perhaps surpass the GoD state by Whis in his suppressed or even full power state (to lowball), then he is DEFINITELY stronger than all of them including Beerus after breaking his limits.

Now let's talk about MUI Goku. Why would anyone even demand a proof that he is stronger than Beerus? He literally has Mastered something Beerus couldn't, toyed with a GoD tier + character and even the narrative makes him stronger, like how all the GoDs stood and the fact it was mentioned several times that it was a power that even GoDs don't have. Even Vegeta made a comment like: "step over the state of the gods and beat Jiren".
At this point you need to prove Beerus is above MUI Goku, not the other way around, same with Jiren.

Unless Beerus is considerably stronger than Belmod and the rest of the GoDs, there's no way he is above Jiren and MUI Goku. But he isn't. For all we know he isn't even the strongest GoD. Nothing suggests he is or even implies that.

In the manga at least, we know that they are all relative, with Beerus being slightly stronger than them except the rat GoD and Belmod who was faking being hurt, and would have won the entire thing if it had continued.

Agree. Overall, there is far more statements and evidences putting UI Goku and Jiren over Beerus. The only thing Beerus has going for him is ‘we haven’t seen his full power’, which isn’t evidence. That’s a fallacy called argument through ignorance.

I know that broly has been the only one officially stated to be probably stronger than beerus

This was said by Goku, who doesn’t know Beerus’ true prowess and only has a slight notion of how strong a God of Destruction is. So far, there is no solid statement about how he compares to anyone. There are just predictions that Goku and Vegeta will become a formidable opponent for him.

it was mentioned several times that it was a power that even GoDs don't have.

This is not accurate. It was said Ultra Instinct is a state the Gods can’t easily attain. Keyword here “easily”. It’s implied Beerus had experienced that state and we don’t know in which step he is right now, just not perfect. And episodes 130 and 131 of the anime are very clear about Goku not having mastered Ultra Instinct. You can’t master something you can’t easily attain. This is a DB Heroes thing for Goku.

Actually we do. In the anime, Whis more or less said at the end of 116 that Beerus was only Omen. In that, he can dodge but not attack that well. The manga even supports this that we saw Beerus dodge, but no counterattacks.

[Hugo Boss]

In the manga, Beerus used a form of UI without any outward change.

I’m not talking about the manga, only the anime. Beerus never showed Ultra Instinct in the anime.

There kinda is with Whis.

The part in which Whis says Vermoud is stronger than Beerus is disputed, he never lost in actual combat and this is left up in the air. No conclusion can be taken from here. Anyway, it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team. So far, it was only confirmed that Jiren is stronger than Vermoud.

The only thing Beerus has going for him is ‘we haven’t seen his full power’, which isn’t evidence. That’s a fallacy called argument through ignorance.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I just don’t pretend there is evidence in favor of anyone being comparable to him.

In the anime, Whis more or less said at the end of 116 that Beerus was only Omen. In that, he can dodge but not attack that well. The manga even supports this that we saw Beerus dodge, but no counterattacks

I checked that scene and I don’t get this impression at all. The manga is another thing, and even its author is not sure about how Beerus compares to the others.

[ruler9871]

Btw, anyone here thinks that FT arc vegito blue may be in brolys league? They were both stated to probably surpass beerus. Or does he get easily stomped.

In the anime no such comment exists. Even in the manga Kaioshin did not say "hes probably stronger than Beerus" he just acknowledged it as a possibility.

Then there's also the fact that the anime & manga have different average power levels for everyone.

Since nearly eveyone in the manga is by feats & scaling weaker than their anime versions (except Kale & arguably Gohan), being "stronger than Beerus" from the manga is not the same as being stronger nor even equal to Beerus from the anime.

Besides, both Goku & Vegeta individually without UI surpassed Black arc Vegito (either version) towards the end of the ToP arc.

[HeroR]

In the manga, Beerus used a form of UI without any outward change.

I’m not talking about the manga, only the anime. Beerus never showed Ultra Instinct in the anime.

There kinda is with Whis.

The part in which Whis says Vermoud is stronger than Beerus is disputed, he never lost in actual combat and this is left up in the air. No conclusion can be taken from here. Anyway, it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team. So far, it was only confirmed that Jiren is stronger than Vermoud.

The only thing Beerus has going for him is ‘we haven’t seen his full power’, which isn’t evidence. That’s a fallacy called argument through ignorance.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I just don’t pretend there is evidence in favor of anyone being comparable to him.

In the anime, Whis more or less said at the end of 116 that Beerus was only Omen. In that, he can dodge but not attack that well. The manga even supports this that we saw Beerus dodge, but no counterattacks

I checked that scene and I don’t get this impression at all. The manga is another thing, and even its author is not sure about how Beerus compares to the others.

Even if we disregard the manga, we have seen Whis used UI with no changed to his appearance. So why would the automatic assumption be that Beerus goes through some physical change? He isn't a Saiyans, who do transform when they reached a new peak of power.

It's not really disputable since Whis trained Beerus and should know where Beerus' power lies. So him saying another god is stronger than Beerus is pretty much an official statement until stated otherwise. Also, if you want to be cheeky, only the manga claimed Jiren > Vermound, not the anime since you have this '’m not talking about the manga, only the anime'.

Here's the thing with 'it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team'. Whis has never outright lied to motive the team. He has always been truthful in that regard. It's Beerus who has lied for motivation, first by telling Goku was going full power in Episode 13 and then the whole Monaka thing. Even if you want to say Whis also lied about Monaka, he only did it because Beerus ordered him to and he had no problem saying Beerus was a lair. Compared to his statement about 'mortal stronger than a God of Destruction', where Goku asked a frank question, so there was no reason for Whis to lie or stress the truth, especially when he repeat the same line in 110.

Overall, there is nothing to counter Whis' statement of mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus. You are using absent of evidence to say 'we don't know, since we haven't seen Beerus lose in combat', which doesn't matter if we never saw Beerus lose. His own teacher says, mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus.

Toyo only stated 'not sure about how Beerus compares to the others' in regards to Shin's statement about Vegito, not the other Gods of Destruction. That and the scene I'm referring to, Whis is talking about Omen about how it's harder to attack without thinking than dodged, and the looked right at Beerus with 'isn't that right', with Beerus only given an scoffed 'Why are you asking me?'. By Beerus' reaction, it's pretty clear the implication is that Beerus can dodged with UI, but cannot attack that well since he thinks before doing so since that's the hardest aspect of UI.

[Bullza]

When I made this thread I figured it'd probably get a few dozen replies and then fade off.

I don't think I've ever seen this thread move off Page 1 in the almost 4 years since I made it. I don't even know why it hasn't been stickied at this point. Same with the Manga thread.

Yet the Broly animation thread which nobody has bothered with it for a month is still stickied.

[PFM18]

Btw, anyone here thinks that FT arc vegito blue may be in brolys league? They were both stated to probably surpass beerus. Or does he get easily stomped.

In the anime no such comment exists. Even in the manga Kaioshin did not say "hes probably stronger than Beerus" he just acknowledged it as a possibility.

Then there's also the fact that the anime & manga have different average power levels for everyone.

Since nearly eveyone in the manga is by feats & scaling weaker than their anime versions (except Kale & arguably Gohan), being "stronger than Beerus" from the manga is not the same as being stronger nor even equal to Beerus from the anime.

Besides, both Goku & Vegeta individually without UI surpassed Black arc Vegito (either version) towards the end of the ToP arc.

The distinction you're making does not really make sense. "Manga Beerus" and "Anime Beerus" are not functionally different characters on a completely different scale. Sure, the anime and manga are power scaled differently, but Beerus is still Beerus.

And no, they didn't.

When I made this thread I figured it'd probably get a few dozen replies and then fade off.

I don't think I've ever seen this thread move off Page 1 in the almost 4 years since I made it. I don't even know why it hasn't been stickied at this point. Same with the Manga thread.

Yet the Broly animation thread which nobody has bothered with it for a month is still stickied.

Yup. 1448 pages and still going strong, and it will flare up again when Super returns in July.

Still, Kanzenshuu's discussion of DBS power scaling lags way behind some other forums.

[Miracles]

In the manga, Beerus used a form of UI without any outward change.

I’m not talking about the manga, only the anime. Beerus never showed Ultra Instinct in the anime.

There kinda is with Whis.

The part in which Whis says Vermoud is stronger than Beerus is disputed, he never lost in actual combat and this is left up in the air. No conclusion can be taken from here. Anyway, it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team. So far, it was only confirmed that Jiren is stronger than Vermoud.

The only thing Beerus has going for him is ‘we haven’t seen his full power’, which isn’t evidence. That’s a fallacy called argument through ignorance.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I just don’t pretend there is evidence in favor of anyone being comparable to him.

In the anime, Whis more or less said at the end of 116 that Beerus was only Omen. In that, he can dodge but not attack that well. The manga even supports this that we saw Beerus dodge, but no counterattacks

I checked that scene and I don’t get this impression at all. The manga is another thing, and even its author is not sure about how Beerus compares to the others.

Even if we disregard the manga, we have seen Whis used UI with no changed to his appearance. So why would the automatic assumption be that Beerus goes through some physical change? He isn't a Saiyans, who do transform when they reached a new peak of power.

It's not really disputable since Whis trained Beerus and should know where Beerus' power lies. So him saying another god is stronger than Beerus is pretty much an official statement until stated otherwise. Also, if you want to be cheeky, only the manga claimed Jiren > Vermound, not the anime since you have this '’m not talking about the manga, only the anime'.

Here's the thing with 'it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team'. Whis has never outright lied to motive the team. He has always been truthful in that regard. It's Beerus who has lied for motivation, first by telling Goku was going full power in Episode 13 and then the whole Monaka thing. Even if you want to say Whis also lied about Monaka, he only did it because Beerus ordered him to and he had no problem saying Beerus was a lair. Compared to his statement about 'mortal stronger than a God of Destruction', where Goku asked a frank question, so there was no reason for Whis to lie or stress the truth, especially when he repeat the same line in 110.

Overall, there is nothing to counter Whis' statement of mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus. You are using absent of evidence to say 'we don't know, since we haven't seen Beerus lose in combat', which doesn't matter if we never saw Beerus lose. His own teacher says, mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus.

Toyo only stated 'not sure about how Beerus compares to the others' in regards to Shin's statement about Vegito, not the other Gods of Destruction. That and the scene I'm referring to, Whis is talking about Omen about how it's harder to attack without thinking than dodged, and the looked right at Beerus with 'isn't that right', with Beerus only given an scoffed 'Why are you asking me?'. By Beerus' reaction, it's pretty clear the implication is that Beerus can dodged with UI, but cannot attack that well since he thinks before doing so since that's the hardest aspect of UI.

It was Beerus himself who shot Whis's rumor accusation down. You missed some context there.

[ruler9871]

In the anime no such comment exists. Even in the manga Kaioshin did not say "hes probably stronger than Beerus" he just acknowledged it as a possibility.

The distinction you're making does not really make sense. "Manga Beerus" and "Anime Beerus" are not functionally different characters on a completely different scale. Sure, the anime and manga are power scaled differently, but Beerus is still Beerus.

And no, they didn't.

1. The fact that Black arc manga Vegito (a fusion of 2 weaker versions of Goku & Vegeta using a weaker version of SSB from the manga) is even remotely comparable to manga Beerus suggest that he's much weaker than his anime version.

2. SSBKKx20 Goku & SSBE Vegeta are clearly stronger than Black arc Vegito. That face that they both pushed Jiren to use more power against them than he did against 1st Omen Goku (who himself is stronger than anything from the Black arc, since he's equal to Suppressed Jiren from ep.110, who himself was stated by Goku, Vegeta & Shin to be the strongest enemy ever, meaning he's stronger than Infinite Zamasu) proves that they are.

Also, GoD Toppo was hyped as the 2nd biggest threat to Universe 7, meaning he's stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who's stronger in raw power than 2nd Omen Goku). So since Vegeta surpassed Toppo, and since SSBKKx20 & SSBE are equally powerful, it would mean both Goku & Vegeta surpassed the 1st 2 Omens in power without UI, making them also way stronger than any Black arc character.

[Kenneth La Torre]

In the anime no such comment exists. Even in the manga Kaioshin did not say "hes probably stronger than Beerus" he just acknowledged it as a possibility.

The distinction you're making does not really make sense. "Manga Beerus" and "Anime Beerus" are not functionally different characters on a completely different scale. Sure, the anime and manga are power scaled differently, but Beerus is still Beerus.

And no, they didn't.

1. The fact that Black arc manga Vegito (a fusion of 2 weaker versions of Goku & Vegeta using a weaker version of SSB from the manga) is even remotely comparable to manga Beerus suggest that he's much weaker than his anime version.

2. SSBKKx20 Goku & SSBE Vegeta are clearly stronger than Black arc Vegito. That face that they both pushed Jiren to use more power against them than he did against 1st Omen Goku (who himself is stronger than anything from the Black arc, since he's equal to Suppressed Jiren from ep.110, who himself was stated by Goku, Vegeta & Shin to be the strongest enemy ever, meaning he's stronger than Infinite Zamasu) proves that they are.

Also, GoD Toppo was hyped as the 2nd biggest threat to Universe 7, meaning he's stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who's stronger in raw power than 2nd Omen Goku). So since Vegeta surpassed Toppo, and since SSBKKx20 & SSBE are equally powerful, it would mean both Goku & Vegeta surpassed the 1st 2 Omens in power without UI, making them also way stronger than any Black arc character.

Vegito from the black arc was most likely surpassed by 129 omen goku and jiren, not anything below it. Conscidering how gogetas base scales on at least the fusees ssb level, it would make 0 sense for goku and vegeta to have gotten hundreds of thousands of times stronger in 48 minutes. Theres also the fact that vegito blue towards the end was wooping a more power merged zamasu. Honestly, he hs his immortality to thank or he would have been obliterated by the final kamehameha.



Or... or, dumb hypothesis i came up with...
Maybe for the writers who did that episode, the potara multiplier was not that much in their minds. I honestly didnt feel the huge multiplier i felt in the boo saga or in the broly movie. Maybe vegito was just a few hundred of times stronger than goku and vegeta individually.

[Kenneth La Torre]

When I made this thread I figured it'd probably get a few dozen replies and then fade off.

I don't think I've ever seen this thread move off Page 1 in the almost 4 years since I made it. I don't even know why it hasn't been stickied at this point. Same with the Manga thread.

Yet the Broly animation thread which nobody has bothered with it for a month is still stickied.

Authority here isnt fond of power scaling as far as I've heard.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

When I made this thread I figured it'd probably get a few dozen replies and then fade off.

I don't think I've ever seen this thread move off Page 1 in the almost 4 years since I made it. I don't even know why it hasn't been stickied at this point. Same with the Manga thread.

Yet the Broly animation thread which nobody has bothered with it for a month is still stickied.

Authority here isnt fond of power scaling as far as I've heard.

Probably because that kind of discussion overtakes a lot of the other threads when such topics present themselves, as seen in the DBS threads. Gets bad enough that a lot of that discussion has to be banned outright.

And I can understand why. There's so much more to the franchise than the power levels, and a lot of this depth gets lost when people get hung up on strength.

[Bullza]

Yeah but as I said the Dragon Ball Super manga discussion thread is another big thread that's been going for years like this one and that was never stickied either.

The official announcement thread from when the show was actually confirmed never got stickied but one of the admins made a thread for the continuation of the show which was never confirmed...and that was stickied immediately.

The same admin made a thread for the Broly animation and stickied that immediately too even though nobody has bothered with it since February.

So it seems like a thread only gets stickied when that particular admin makes a thread.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Yeah but as I said the Dragon Ball Super manga discussion thread is another big thread thays been going for years like this one and that was never stickied either.

The official announcement thread from when the show was actually confirmed never got stickied but one of the admins made a thread for the continuation of the show which was never confirmed...and that was stickied immediately.

The same admin made a thread for the Broly animation and stickied that immediately too even though nobody has bothered with it since February.

So it seems like a thread only gets stickied when that particular admin makes a thread.

You cannot have leaders that do not abuse even a tiny bit of their authority, you see.

[HeroR]

I’m not talking about the manga, only the anime. Beerus never showed Ultra Instinct in the anime.


The part in which Whis says Vermoud is stronger than Beerus is disputed, he never lost in actual combat and this is left up in the air. No conclusion can be taken from here. Anyway, it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team. So far, it was only confirmed that Jiren is stronger than Vermoud.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I just don’t pretend there is evidence in favor of anyone being comparable to him.


I checked that scene and I don’t get this impression at all. The manga is another thing, and even its author is not sure about how Beerus compares to the others.

Even if we disregard the manga, we have seen Whis used UI with no changed to his appearance. So why would the automatic assumption be that Beerus goes through some physical change? He isn't a Saiyans, who do transform when they reached a new peak of power.

It's not really disputable since Whis trained Beerus and should know where Beerus' power lies. So him saying another god is stronger than Beerus is pretty much an official statement until stated otherwise. Also, if you want to be cheeky, only the manga claimed Jiren > Vermound, not the anime since you have this '’m not talking about the manga, only the anime'.

Here's the thing with 'it does seem like those instances when Whis and Beerus try to motivate the team'. Whis has never outright lied to motive the team. He has always been truthful in that regard. It's Beerus who has lied for motivation, first by telling Goku was going full power in Episode 13 and then the whole Monaka thing. Even if you want to say Whis also lied about Monaka, he only did it because Beerus ordered him to and he had no problem saying Beerus was a lair. Compared to his statement about 'mortal stronger than a God of Destruction', where Goku asked a frank question, so there was no reason for Whis to lie or stress the truth, especially when he repeat the same line in 110.

Overall, there is nothing to counter Whis' statement of mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus. You are using absent of evidence to say 'we don't know, since we haven't seen Beerus lose in combat', which doesn't matter if we never saw Beerus lose. His own teacher says, mortal stronger than a God of Destruction > Beerus.

Toyo only stated 'not sure about how Beerus compares to the others' in regards to Shin's statement about Vegito, not the other Gods of Destruction. That and the scene I'm referring to, Whis is talking about Omen about how it's harder to attack without thinking than dodged, and the looked right at Beerus with 'isn't that right', with Beerus only given an scoffed 'Why are you asking me?'. By Beerus' reaction, it's pretty clear the implication is that Beerus can dodged with UI, but cannot attack that well since he thinks before doing so since that's the hardest aspect of UI.

It was Beerus himself who shot Whis's rumor accusation down. You missed some context there.

I know exactly what Beerus said. The problem is, Beerus isn't really trustworthy compared to Whis, especially since Beerus has been caught lying. While Whis never lied unless he was following Beerus like Monaka.

[HeroR]

In the anime no such comment exists. Even in the manga Kaioshin did not say "hes probably stronger than Beerus" he just acknowledged it as a possibility.

The distinction you're making does not really make sense. "Manga Beerus" and "Anime Beerus" are not functionally different characters on a completely different scale. Sure, the anime and manga are power scaled differently, but Beerus is still Beerus.

And no, they didn't.

1. The fact that Black arc manga Vegito (a fusion of 2 weaker versions of Goku & Vegeta using a weaker version of SSB from the manga) is even remotely comparable to manga Beerus suggest that he's much weaker than his anime version.

2. SSBKKx20 Goku & SSBE Vegeta are clearly stronger than Black arc Vegito. That face that they both pushed Jiren to use more power against them than he did against 1st Omen Goku (who himself is stronger than anything from the Black arc, since he's equal to Suppressed Jiren from ep.110, who himself was stated by Goku, Vegeta & Shin to be the strongest enemy ever, meaning he's stronger than Infinite Zamasu) proves that they are.

Also, GoD Toppo was hyped as the 2nd biggest threat to Universe 7, meaning he's stronger than SSJ2 Kefla (who's stronger in raw power than 2nd Omen Goku). So since Vegeta surpassed Toppo, and since SSBKKx20 & SSBE are equally powerful, it would mean both Goku & Vegeta surpassed the 1st 2 Omens in power without UI, making them also way stronger than any Black arc character.

Vegito from the black arc was most likely surpassed by 129 omen goku and jiren, not anything below it. Conscidering how gogetas base scales on at least the fusees ssb level, it would make 0 sense for goku and vegeta to have gotten hundreds of thousands of times stronger in 48 minutes. Theres also the fact that vegito blue towards the end was wooping a more power merged zamasu. Honestly, he hs his immortality to thank or he would have been obliterated by the final kamehameha.



Or... or, dumb hypothesis i came up with...
Maybe for the writers who did that episode, the potara multiplier was not that much in their minds. I honestly didnt feel the huge multiplier i felt in the boo saga or in the broly movie. Maybe vegito was just a few hundred of times stronger than goku and vegeta individually.

Merged Zamasu was only half immortal and it was actually said one big attack could kill him, which is why the fused to begin with. Saying that it was immorality that saved him from the Final Kamehameha really doesn't make much sense when Trunks' Spirit Sword sliced him in half and goes against the reason why the fusion even happened.

Also, the writer who did Vegito Blue vs Merged Zamasu also wrote 116, while Super Saiyan 2 Kelfa was stated to be able to kill Omen Goku with her final all out attack and she rivaled the Spirit Bomb. That and the writers don't even make those kind of power scaling decisions. The director and producer do.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Literally nothing implies that Goku and Vegeta increased in power in the tournament outside of their new forms. Them pressuring Jiren was stated to be due to their lack of coordination throwing him off. Goku only got stronger through his usages of Ultra Instinct and Vegeta only did so through Blue Evolution. Vegito would finger flick any version of Goku and Vegeta in their Blue forms.

SSB Kaioken Goku and SSBE Vegeta are equal. If Vegeta beat Toppo but Goku lost to Kefla, then that would mean that Kefla>Toppo. The chain for powers are:

UI>UI Omen>SSB Kaioken/SSBE>SSB. There are no obscure nuances to this like SSB Goku from 123>110 UI Omen. This was never stated or hinted at by any character.