Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Now, this thread is not meant to hate on the Buu arc. I just want to state my reasons on why I think ending Dragon Ball at the Cell arc would be the best choice.
Now let us begin.
1.Cell is the perfect final villain
Spoiler:
Before Cell, Dragon Ball had its fair share of great villains. Piccolo Daimao and Piccolo Jr., the Saiyans and Freeza, all of them were great for different reasons. But then came Cell. Cell for me, thematically at least, fits the role of the series' final villain just perfect.
He is a life form born by the cells of the finest warriors the series produced by this point (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Freeza & his father). The heroes had to face themselves and some of the strongest adversaries they fought in the past, all in one organism.
2.Goku’s death/Gohan taking the mantle
Spoiler:
Since the start of the Saiyan arc and the introduction of Gohan, we've been teased about the young saiyan's enormous potential. He showed glimpses of it in the battles with Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta and Freeza.
When Goku took Gohan with him in the Room of Spirit and Time in preparation for the battle with Cell, it was made obvious that Gohan was about to make a big impact. Goku had faith in his son, who just turned into a Super Saiyan. He was ready to pass the mantle to his successor as Earth's biggest hero.
Goku’s sacrifice wasn't only a heroic attempt, it was a declaration for the new protector of Earth. Gohan then, realized his true potential, took the responsibility of his father's death and avenged him, killing Cell and saving Earth in the process. Later, Goku even refused to come back to life, not only because he attracted bad guys, but also because he knew Gohan was ready to succeed him. It was a perfect character arc closure for Goku and Gohan.
3.Character arc closures
Spoiler:
I mentioned how Goku and Gohan got their perfect arc closures. Goku's dead and he is proud to leave Gohan behind to protect Earth. Gohan can now live a peaceful life, even try to be a scholar like he always wanted. But let's talk about other characters as well.
Piccolo now eternally fused with his other half, Kami, will live peacefully in the temple with Dende. Vegeta, by seeing his biggest rival die and his rival's son surpass him, lost any motivation to keep fighting him. He even showed he cared for Trunks, after he was killed by Cell. He was shown at the end of the arc, respectfully waving goodbye to his son as he was returning to the future. Vegeta was ready to keep living peacefully. Trunks, returned to his future, mentally and physically stronger than ever, and killed his enemies, declaring peace once and for all.
4.The last time the Dragon Balls drive the plot
Spoiler:
The series is called Dragon Ball. And as you'd expect, the plot should be driven by them and not only use then as a deus ex machina. The Saiyan and Freeza arcs had the Dragon Balls as the main goal for the villains. The Cell arc was a bit different. It was revenge story, a revenge the Red Ribbon Army wanted to extract against Goku because he prevented them from getting the Dragon Balls. Again, the Dragon Balls were the cause of the events. This is something that is personally bothering me about the Buu arc.
In the Buu arc, the Dragon Balls are relevant, but they aren't a central focus anymore. They are just there as the story unfolds.
My Dragon Ball Super 'Canon'
Spoiler:
Battle of Gods/Resurrection 'F' films
Dragon Ball Super: Broly
Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 05-
It would have been a bitter sweet ending, and the Majin Boo arc just so happened to be like Bourne Ultimatum after Supremacy, years prior to this movie series. Let me explain: everyone thought that the second movie was a perfect ending, but the third one managed to make it part of a bigger plan, in Dragon Ball's case the need to bring Goku back after the new generation had its turn. It was magnificent! The Genki-dama finally met its end game, Goku seemed to rejuvenate by fighting his equal, while the others did not fall behind significantly. In fact, the Majin Boo arc did not end with the strongest fights, while the Cell arc was pretty much one on one during its games. Back to Jason Bourne: not only could it have ended with Supremacy that nobody would have asked for more, the fact that people did and it was more successful than the last one, proves that there's just no "perfect" ending except a precocious one like Dragon Ball GT's to its series.
Fans make arguments that it should've ended with Namek or even after the 23rd Tenkaichi. The problem with ending it anywhere else besides the Buu arc is it leaves great concepts and plot points behind.
If it ended with the 23rd Tenkaichi we wouldn't have gotten any of the great concepts and characters introduced in Z.
If it ended with Namek we wouldn't have seen Piccolo and Gohan's story develop and come full circle. We also wouldn't have gotten Future Trunks.
If it ended with Cell we wouldn't have seen Vegeta's story conclude. He wouldn't have gotten his rematch with Goku or found peace with who he became and in relation to Goku. We wouldn't have gotten fusion, Ssj3 & , Mystic Gohan & the Genkidama finally working. We wouldn't have seen Mr. Satan go through a character arc.
I could understand wanting it end with Cell if the Buu arc was just a waste of time but it wasn't. It was just as meaningful and packed with as much content as any previous arc.
In terms of the perfect villain, I don't think it's Cell or even Freeza but rather Beerus. Unlike Freeza and Cell who eventually fell, Beerus reminded Goku what Roshi told him and Krillin all those years ago, There's always someone stronger. If anything, BOG is where DB should've ended, not Cell or Buu.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
I don't remember people thinking Supremacy being the perfect ending in large part because there's still much of his identity left unexplained or explored. While the Cell arc is a fitting ending, it still doesn't feel like Vegeta has completed his arc. Quitting fighting because his object of obsession is dead doesn't feel like an ending of his full arc as much as the completion of his arc in that story, but with further to go.
I know people love Goku passing the torch but it's an idea that feels very abrupt in this arc. Also, it's an idea that sounds better in theory than it does in practice.
As inelegant as Goku returning to the limelight was, I'm glad Toriyama did it instead of going with his plan. Goku is and should remain the main character. No one else feels right in that role.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
In the past there were rumors saying Toriyama intended Z to end with the Saiyan arc. Personally, the Freeza arc or Cell arc could've worked perfectly to wrap up the series.
I'm in the camp that feels that the Namek arc would have been a thematically appropriate place to end the story for several reasons (it's gone to space, Goku is the strongest known being at the time, his lessons with Roshi come full circle, he avenges the Saiyan genocide, Gohan has unlocked his inner power...).
I will admit I do scratch my head a bit regarding folks that say doing so would have robbed us of other character moments like Gohan/Piccolo and Vegeta, when I've been told in the past "NO, DRAGON BALL IS GOKU'S STORY".
KBABZ wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:10 pm
I'm in the camp that feels that the Namek arc would have been a thematically appropriate place to end the story for several reasons (it's gone to space, Goku is the strongest known being at the time, his lessons with Roshi come full circle, he avenges the Saiyan genocide, Gohan has unlocked his inner power...).
I will admit I do scratch my head a bit regarding folks that say doing so would have robbed us of other character moments like Gohan/Piccolo and Vegeta, when I've been told in the past "NO, DRAGON BALL IS GOKU'S STORY".
He's the main character, but that doesn't preclude other characters from playing a role or that leaving their development left incomplete is disappointing. I don't think you understand what I and others mean when we say DB is Goku's story.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
JohnnyCashKami wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 1:46 pmIn the past there were rumors saying Toriyama intended Z to end with the Saiyan arc.
When he was asked to give a name for the anime sequel, he picked Z because he thought the story wouldn't go on for much longer. At the time, maybe he did think the Saiyan arc would be a fitting ending as we finally got to see Goku's origins.
KBABZ wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 2:10 pmI will admit I do scratch my head a bit regarding folks that say doing so would have robbed us of other character moments like Gohan/Piccolo and Vegeta, when I've been told in the past "NO, DRAGON BALL IS GOKU'S STORY".
It is Goku's story but within that story are other stories that wouldn't be completed without the addition of the Cell and Buu arcs. Without the Cell arc we wouldn't have seen Goku become a teacher to Gohan so even the Namek arc would've left Goku's arc incomplete as up tot hat point we always saw him training under someone but never being anyone's trainer.
ABED wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 1:27 pmWhile the Cell arc is a fitting ending, it still doesn't feel like Vegeta has completed his arc. Quitting fighting because his object of obsession is dead doesn't feel like an ending of his full arc as much as the completion of his arc in that story, but with further to go.
It would've been a very anti-climactic way to end his story arc. Ever since the end of the Saiyan arc his main goals were to get a rematch with Goku and surpass him, both of which are only addressed in the Buu arc.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Vegeta's lack of closure would've bothered me. However if they had set him up afterward with a kick-ass theatrical event, a la Super Broly, that would've been a nice wrap-up.
To be honest, most of the hate the Android/Cell saga gets from the Western fandom is largely overblown and based on contrarianism (since its the most popular saga in the West).
While its storytelling isn't good (still better than the Buu saga's and most of Super & GT's storytelling), as far as character dynamics go its arguably the best in the whole franchise.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
Absolutely agree. Dragon Ball at it's highest in terms of writing and telling a great story with great progression.
Only thing needed to explain is Vegeta, but if it was ending Toriyama could've just wrote a "End of Z" for the events after the Cell saga. Not that hard.
Also in hindsight, Bojack Unbound pretty much solves this anyway.
Sadly, Cell Saga have too many flaws, main one being fact, that characters need to act like idiots to make story not end in 1-2 episodes, Freeza Saga on the other hand would be perfect ending.
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Thanks to Discotek:
Magic Knight Rayearth get DVD release in 2015 and Blu-Ray release on 2016
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I feel that without the Majin Boo arc I would have not liked Vegeta in general, because it's only in that arc that he becomes a truly fully fleshed character, in my opinion.
But I do feel the Cell arc was the perfect conclusion for Gohan's character arc.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
coola wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:03 am
Sadly, Cell Saga have too many flaws, main one being fact, that characters need to act like idiots to make story not end in 1-2 episodes, Freeza Saga on the other hand would be perfect ending.
They aren't acting like idiots. They didn't fail to realize a sensible way to stop Dr. Gero from creating the cyborgs. They wanted to fight them.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
coola wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:03 am
Sadly, Cell Saga have too many flaws, main one being fact, that characters need to act like idiots to make story not end in 1-2 episodes, Freeza Saga on the other hand would be perfect ending.
They aren't acting like idiots. They didn't fail to realize a sensible way to stop Dr. Gero from creating the cyborgs. They wanted to fight them.
This.
Toriyama had Bulma point out the obvious solution because of this. That was the whole point.
Personally I like the ending we got. Goku leaving with Uub feels happy and optimistic, while ending with Cell would be sad, because of Gohan losing his father again without being able to ever see him.
And we'd remember Vegeta as the annoying asshole he was in the Cell arc, rather than the redeemed hero he became in the Buu arc. Same for Mr Satan actually. And to be honest I just like the Buu arc better than the Cell arc anyway. It's just more fun and wildly unpredictable.
The idea of the series ending with Goku's death has always just sounded a bit too depressing for me. It's like how Sylvester Stallone had originally planned on killing off Rocky in Rocky 5, but changed his mind because it would be too depressing.
If you must go that route then you won't do any better than the GT ending. It's sad, but at least the characters feel more complete by then.
Lord Beerus wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2019 9:16 am
I feel that without the Majin Boo arc I would have not liked Vegeta in general, because it's only in that arc that he becomes a truly fully fleshed character, in my opinion.
But I do feel the Cell arc was the perfect conclusion for Gohan's character arc.
Vegeta was already more fleshed-out than 95% of the cast by the end of the Cell Games. The Buu saga simply widened the gap.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
sintzu wrote: ↑Tue May 07, 2019 12:19 pm
Fans make arguments that it should've ended with Namek or even after the 23rd Tenkaichi. The problem with ending it anywhere else besides the Buu arc is it leaves great concepts and plot points behind.
If it ended with the 23rd Tenkaichi we wouldn't have gotten any of the great concepts and characters introduced in Z.
If it ended with Namek we wouldn't have seen Piccolo and Gohan's story develop and come full circle. We also wouldn't have gotten Future Trunks.
If it ended with Cell we wouldn't have seen Vegeta's story conclude. He wouldn't have gotten his rematch with Goku or found peace with who he became and in relation to Goku. We wouldn't have gotten fusion, Ssj3 & , Mystic Gohan & the Genkidama finally working. We wouldn't have seen Mr. Satan go through a character arc.
I could understand wanting it end with Cell if the Buu arc was just a waste of time but it wasn't. It was just as meaningful and packed with as much content as any previous arc.
In terms of the perfect villain, I don't think it's Cell or even Freeza but rather Beerus. Unlike Freeza and Cell who eventually fell, Beerus reminded Goku what Roshi told him and Krillin all those years ago, There's always someone stronger. If anything, BOG is where DB should've ended, not Cell or Buu.
Beerus wasn't even a real villain dude but then super happened you praise beerus too much when he himself was small fry compared to zeno.
Story-wise, I agree that the Cell arc was a nice bow on Dragon Ball -- at least the story of Goku. But if it did end with Cell, I'm pretty sure that there would be a large fan demand to resurrect the series at some point anyway. I believe that there would be interest to see what happened with Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Kaio, and Goku.
Personally, the Boo arc wasn't some story marvel, but I enjoyed it for what it was.