Unpopular DB opinions

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Omniboy
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Omniboy » Fri May 24, 2019 4:01 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:52 pm
Omniboy wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:40 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:53 pm


Those guys hitting on her was pretty weird. I mean, did the writers forget that she’s supposed to be even younger than Pan? Sure, Vegeta did cut off their steering wheel, but the implication I got was that he did that because they insulted him, not necessarily because they were hitting on his nine year old daughter.

I'm always had this weird feeling that they made Bra older than she actually is in GT. She looks too much like Bulma did in Dragonball and she checks off every stereotype about girls in their late teens.
You might have a point, but at the same time, even Bulma in early Dragon Ball looked older than Bra did, considering that she was drawn with visible breasts. Plus, Pan still clearly looked like a child, so it’s all just really confusing.
Well when Bulma first met goku she didn't have any visible breast.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri May 24, 2019 4:25 pm

Nokra wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 am
Use to like marvel a lot. But recently they've become too much about appealing to an obvious sjw feminist agenda :thumbdown: Feelsbad
None of them have any SJW feminist agenda in them. People need to stop reading into stupid right wing bullshit created by the media for click bait. Movies had female characters as the lead role for years. I guess the Alien series and Nightmare on Elm Street series are SJW feminist agenda as well because they have a main female character who defeats the main movie monster. Also, no one was calling recent female movies like Salt, Lucy, Wonder Woman, and Alita: Battle Angel as SJW feminist agenda.

People even said that Kale was added to promote SJW feminism from Toei which is utter nonsense.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri May 24, 2019 5:03 pm

Hellspawn28 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:25 pm
Nokra wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 9:46 am
Use to like marvel a lot. But recently they've become too much about appealing to an obvious sjw feminist agenda :thumbdown: Feelsbad
None of them have any SJW feminist agenda in them. People need to stop reading into stupid right wing bullshit created by the media for click bait. Movies had female characters as the lead role for years. I guess the Alien series and Nightmare on Elm Street series are SJW feminist agenda as well because they have a main female character who defeats the main movie monster. Also, no one was calling recent female movies like Salt, Lucy, Wonder Woman, and Alita: Battle Angel as SJW feminist agenda.

People even said that Kale was added to promote SJW feminism from Toei which is utter nonsense.
In the case of Wonder Woman, there actually were a few people who claimed that the movie was trying to promote a feminist agenda, and that people only liked the film because of feminism or whatever. One of these people was Stefan Molyneux. With that said, the movie certainly didn’t receive anywhere near the kind of anti-SJW backlash that Captain Marvel received. In fact, there were even some people like Gail Simone who argued that the movie wasn’t feminist enough, especially since they went with Wonder Woman’s New 52 backstory of being the daughter of Zeus.

Anyway, as far as Dragon Ball is concerned, the people who claim that Kale and Caulifla are Mary Sues promoting a feminist agenda are ridiculous. Those two are nothing more than side characters who, even in their fused form, were nowhere near the threat that Jiren was. Thankfully, no one in this thread seems to be making that argument.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri May 24, 2019 6:26 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 5:03 pm
. One of these people was Stefan Molyneux. .
We’re using the term “people”’ very loosely I see.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri May 24, 2019 6:28 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:43 pm

I'm not sure where your measurement of critical consensus came from
Google is your friend. Look it up. The MCU averages at 6-7 out of 10 by critics. Fact.

Just because something is successful, doesn't mean it gets a free pass from criticisms. It's very shortsighted of you to think otherwise.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 7:01 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:28 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 3:43 pm

I'm not sure where your measurement of critical consensus came from
Google is your friend. Look it up. The MCU averages at 6-7 out of 10 by critics. Fact.

Just because something is successful, doesn't mean it gets a free pass from criticisms. It's very shortsighted of you to think otherwise.
Not remotely what I was getting at. I didn't conflate the two, but I'm not sure where this number is coming from. Given that critics don't use some standardized scale how the hell do you get that number? Is it IMDB users (shudder), Cinemascore doesn't use a 1-10 scale, Rotten Tomatoes uses percentages and their average is in the 80s for both audience and critics.

This is fruitless. Good day, sir. Sorry for taking up so much of this page.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri May 24, 2019 7:51 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:01 pm

Not remotely what I was getting at. I didn't conflate the two
You seemed to fall back on citing the success of MCU whenever I expressed my problems with it.

Rotten Tomatoes uses percentages and their average is in the 80s for both audience and critics.
The percentage is approval rating (like or dislike). There's also a scoring system separate from it. E.g. Civil War has an approval rating of 91%, but an average rating of 7.7/10, both by critics. Captain Marvel, approval rating of 78%, average rating of 6.78/10.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Fri May 24, 2019 8:40 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:51 pm
ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:01 pm

Not remotely what I was getting at. I didn't conflate the two
You seemed to fall back on citing the success of MCU whenever I expressed my problems with it.

Rotten Tomatoes uses percentages and their average is in the 80s for both audience and critics.
The percentage is approval rating (like or dislike). There's also a scoring system separate from it. E.g. Civil War has an approval rating of 91%, but an average rating of 7.7/10, both by critics. Captain Marvel, approval rating of 78%, average rating of 6.78/10.
I know how their system works, but neither score is comparing apples to oranges. Thank you for giving a genuine responded, though. If you had continued with that obnoxious tone of "look it up" I wouldn't have replied.

I don't fall back on citing their success, you just never seem to understand the point that success is god damn hard. Everyone is trying to aim for success. If you honestly think that it's simply a matter of huge marketing budgets or aiming it at a mass audience (whatever the hell that constitutes), then you're deluded. If pumping money into the marketing was enough, then what blockbuster wouldn't be profitable? Surely if it was that simple, they could get a loan to increase their budget. I think you can understand that it's not that simple. And how do you design something to achieve mass appeal? Do you think WB wasn't trying to get mass appeal when they attempted their own cinematic universe? What did Marvel understand that WB didn't? To bring it back to DB, Toriyama deserves all the credit in the world for turning DB into a success. Sure, the martial arts genre was selling better at the time, but that's no guarantee of success. He originally wanted to make it a Journey to the West parody and fought changing, but eventually did. He succeeded where others would've failed. He's had a ton of imitators but somehow he hit on something that despite being very Asian in its influences has managed to capture a global audience. You can't engineer success. If you could, everyone would do it. William Goldman's brilliant adage holds true "Nobody in Hollywood knows anything." Both Toriyama and the MCU deserve all the credit in the world for managing to be so successful so consistently.

What also irks me about your position is your insistence that the MCU is cynically designing their movies to appeal to mass audiences when DB is guilty of the same exact thing. No, it's not more subtle. Broly becoming canon and Freeza becoming the archenemy of the series are naked attempts to cash in on the fan base's collective nostalgia for both characters. As far as I can tell you have a problem with the former doing it because you don't agree with their politics.

Last point, Star Wars injecting politics is not remotely new. It's very conception was based not only around Lucas's desperate tastes and influences, it was him saying something about the Vietnam War through his art. His politics are baked into the DNA of Star Wars.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Fri May 24, 2019 10:20 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:40 pm

I know how their system works
Then you would have known about the 6-7/10 average I mentioned earlier.

I don't fall back on citing their success, you just never seem to understand the point that success is god damn hard.
Many of my responses were met with you falling back on citing their success. And I never said success wasn't hard. Don't put words in my mouth.

If you honestly think that it's simply a matter of huge marketing budgets or aiming it at a mass audience (whatever the hell that constitutes), then you're deluded.
I'm not deluded. It's a well known fact how much of a success driver marketing is in the entertainment industry. Often times, more money is spent marketing these movies than actually developing them. That wouldn't be the case if the movies could actually rely on how good they are for success.

I can debate you endlessly on this, if you want to descend into another rabbit hole. Marketing is a huge driver of the MCU. No one in their right mind would devote more than half their budget to marketing if it wasn't significant.

If pumping money into the marketing was enough, then what blockbuster wouldn't be profitable?
The blockbusters that don't have a sufficient budget. Also, the blockbuster that downright suck (sometimes).

Surely if it was that simple, they could get a loan to increase their budget. I think you can understand that it's not that simple.
Because getting approved for a $300+ billion lone is simple. Because having tons of money in this world is simple.

And how do you design something to achieve mass appeal?
I guess I will be blunt. Make sure it's at least decent to watch, and market the crap out of it. MCU movies definitely don't suck, so from there, all you need is to market it. But there's way better movies out there that are not nearly as successful, and that have a much smaller overall budget.

What did Marvel understand that WB didn't?
Well Marvel had a head start. So there's that.

You can't engineer success. If you could, everyone would do it.
Yeah, because everyone can get a hold of $300 million dollars.

What also irks me about your position is your insistence that the MCU is cynically designing their movies to appeal to mass audiences when DB is guilty of the same exact thing.
I explained myself already when it came to this, so I really don't feel like repeating myself.

Last point, Star Wars injecting politics is not remotely new. It's very conception was based not only around Lucas's desperate tastes and influences, it was him saying something about the Vietnam War through his art. His politics are baked into the DNA of Star Wars.
I don't believe I ever mentioned Star Wars and politics in the same sentence.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 7:02 am

This last response is plain naïve. Those sorts of marketing budgets are NOTHING to major studios like WB, so lack of budgets are a non-issue, and yet your best response for why WB failed with the DCEU is they didn't have a head start? Keep in mind that Solo lost money. It didn't lack for marketing or awareness, and all things considered it was competently made. A STAR WARS MOVIE LOST MONEY!
I explained myself already when it came to this, so I really don't feel like repeating myself.
No, you don't have to explain your point because at its core, it's both could do the same things for the same reasons, but because one decides to try to whip a message at people, you are more cynical of ones motives. Oh, and you think the MCU is pretentious for doing so.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 12:46 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 7:02 am

Those sorts of marketing budgets are NOTHING to major studios like WB
That is beside the point. The point is, MCU clearly sees how much of a factor marketing is. Otherwise, it wouldn't take up a large percentage of their budget.

Also, these are record breaking budgets. It's not nothing. Endgame is the third most expensive movie in all of history. It's nothing? Are you nuts?!

your best response for why WB failed with the DCEU is they didn't have a head start?
Who said they failed? Why do you think they failed? They have like six movies planned for the future.

Keep in mind that Solo lost money. It didn't lack for marketing or awareness, and all things considered it was competently made. A STAR WARS MOVIE LOST MONEY!
No one is saying marketing always works. But you're trying to say it doesn't matter when it clearly does.

Marketing it self is also a skill that needs to be executed well. Just because you spend lots of money marketing, doesn't mean it's good marketing.

Also, Han Solo is considered kind of bad by a lot of people. Also, the marketing of related movies also matter. MCU pumps out several movies a year while we get one Star Wars movie a year at most. The MCU is constantly fresh in people's minds.

but because one decides to try to whip a message at people, you are more cynical of ones motives. Oh, and you think the MCU is pretentious for doing so.
Yeah, pretty much. But remember, it's only comparatively speaking.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 1:03 pm

I don't know what I wrote would ever lead you to believe I don't think marketing matters.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 1:09 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:03 pm
I don't know what I wrote would ever lead you to believe I don't think marketing matters.
If it matters -- if it's a factor -- then one can reasonably cite marketing as a reason for financial success. Especially if it's more than half the budget.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:09 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:03 pm
I don't know what I wrote would ever lead you to believe I don't think marketing matters.
If it matters -- if it's a factor -- then one can reasonably cite marketing as a reason for financial success. Especially if it's more than half the budget.
I never claimed otherwise, but it's still one amongst many factors and has to be done wisely. Even assuming its mostly marketing, still they are doing something with their marketing better than most other blockbusters on a consistent basis. Final point, any good marketing textbook will tell you the center of any good marketing plan has to be the product. A long running series like DB and the MCU couldn't keep drawing audiences if the audience was only getting marketing. Hype only gets you so far. It will turn negative if they aren't enjoying themselves.
Last edited by ABED on Sat May 25, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 1:15 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm

I never claimed otherwise.
I claimed earlier that MCU makes a lot of money because of marketing. Do you still object? (because you totally did before, and I can quote you on it)

they are doing something better than most other blockbusters on a consistent basis.
Maybe that something is, they're marketing better than everyone else. Three of their movies are in the top five most expensive movies ever.
Last edited by Melee_Sovereign on Sat May 25, 2019 1:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 1:24 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:15 pm
ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:12 pm

I never claimed otherwise.
I claimed earlier that MCU makes a lot of money because of marketing. Do you still object? (because you totally did before, and I can quote you on it)

they are doing something better than most other blockbusters on a consistent basis.
Maybe that something is, they're marketing better than everyone else. Three of their movies are in the top five most expensive movies ever.
You claimed they are ONLY successful because of marketing. "It has financial success simply because they have the budget to market the crap out of these movies" are your exact words. That's reductive and that's where the disagreement is coming from. Marketing plays a part, but only so far.

Being expensive doesn't guarantee a profit, nor does a huge marketing campaign. New Coke, Edsel, Solo, Waterworld, The Lone Ranger, John Carter, Cutthroat Island...
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 1:32 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:24 pm

You claimed they are ONLY successful because of marketing. "It has financial success simply because they have the budget to market the crap out of these movies" are your exact words. That's reductive and that's where the disagreement is coming from. Marketing plays a part, but only so far.

Being expensive doesn't guarantee a profit, nor does a huge marketing campaign. New Coke, Edsel, Solo, Waterworld, The Lone Ranger, John Carter, Cutthroat Island...

Final point, any good marketing textbook will tell you the center of any good marketing plan has to be the product.
Like I said, MCU doesn't suck. It's good. But so are so many other things, and they don't draw in a billion dollars. Why doesn't, say, a movie like Ex Machina bring in a billion dollars? It's a pretty fucking good movie. One of the best I've seen in this decade. It was critically acclaimed and won a ton of awards. Yet, it made less than $100 million.

I can agree that the MCU is successful at all because it is good. But the reason it breaks records in revenue is not really because it's good. It's because of how much it pushes itself into the mainstream. Plenty of things out there are fantastic, and they don't make a tenth of the money.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 1:48 pm

1 - Marvel produces movies aimed at families. Ex Machina is rated R.
2 - The Superhero genre is popular and a known quantity.
3 - Marvel is a franchise that has built a reputation over time. Over the course of a decade, the audience has built an emotional connection with these characters and want to see the conclusion of these stories. Ex Machina was an original property. It's the same reason DB films have been very successful recently. DB is a known quantity and so each subsequent film has had a wider and wider release because the audience has grown. The success of Broly can attributed to that as well as the quality of the animation.

Is your inference of my posts that the MCU's drawing power if purely on the quality of each film? If so, that's not what I said or implied. Both DB and the MCU are brand names and brand names are about reputation.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sat May 25, 2019 2:13 pm

ABED wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 1:48 pm
1 - Marvel produces movies aimed at families. Ex Machina is rated R.
Deadpool and Logan are rated R.

2 - The Superhero genre is popular and a known quantity.
And Sci-Fi isn't?

3 - Marvel is a franchise that has built a reputation over time. Over the course of a decade, the audience has built an emotional connection with these characters and want to see the conclusion of these stories. Ex Machina was an original property. It's the same reason DB films have been very successful recently. DB is a known quantity and so each subsequent film has had a wider and wider release because the audience has grown. The success of Broly can attributed to that as well as the quality of the animation.
Avatar says hi.

Is your inference of my posts that the MCU's drawing power if purely on the quality of each film?
Why else would you bring up the MCU's success? Is it at all meant to be a counterpoint to any of the criticism I've made towards it?

Both DB and the MCU are brand names and brand names are about reputation.
The difference between MCU and DB is, the vast majority of DB's audience are die hard fans. The fast majority of people who go see MCU never touch a comic book.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by ABED » Sat May 25, 2019 2:57 pm

Why else would you bring up the MCU's success? Is it at all meant to be a counterpoint to any of the criticism I've made towards it?
All of this is to prove your point that the MCU's success by targeting mainstream audiences is not a negative nor easy. It's well earned. There's nothing cynical about it, despite your claim to the contrary.
The difference between MCU and DB is, the vast majority of DB's audience are die hard fans. The fast majority of people who go see MCU never touch a comic book.
And is that some knock against it? Part of the problem with modern superhero comics is that they forgot how to tell stories with appeal to anyone but hardcore comic book fans. The MCU understands the source material and what the appeal is and then translate that to another medium. That's a good thing. It brings these great characters and stories to the masses instead of just a niche group. I also don't know if DB's audience is primarily hardcore fans. I have a hard time believing it could appeal to so many people world wide if its only audience was hardcore fans.

A big reason the comic book bubble burst in the 90s is because the American market appealed mostly to hardcore fans. It lead to Marvel going bankrupt.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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