Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I guess SSBlue matters again in DB Heroes. Vegito Blue Kaioken wasn't enough for Base Cumber, who answers to Hearts but is on par with SS Blue Goku... I love Heroes

If you’ve watched the episode all the way to the end, it’s showed that Hearts is playing around with Goku. The episode just gave us a good fight, not a powerlevel indication.

Yet he had scratches all over his body.

He let Goku scratch him. Then, he started getting serious, Goku couldn’t harm him anymore. And he still didn’t show his full power yet.

[Zamasu55]

If you’ve watched the episode all the way to the end, it’s showed that Hearts is playing around with Goku. The episode just gave us a good fight, not a powerlevel indication.

Yet he had scratches all over his body.

He let Goku scratch him. Then, he started getting serious, Goku couldn’t harm him anymore. And he still didn’t show his full power yet.

No, this was never implied. Plus in his base he was definetely already stronger than everyone.

[Hugo Boss]

He let Goku scratch him. Then, he started getting serious, Goku couldn’t harm him anymore. And he still didn’t show his full power yet.

No, this was never implied. Plus in his base he was definetely already stronger than everyone.

I mean, he was fighting at a level Goku could deal with, thus he got a few scratches, specially after the kamehameha. In his base, he was using that strange power that can restrict anyone, he never fought... He started fighting using this power after Goku scratched him and the rest we know.

[ZombieVito]

My two cents. While I have no doubts that Ultimate Gohan (of that time) was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, I don't believe he was THOUSANDS of times stronger like many people insist, based on some claims and buffonery of a stupid kid and a desperate Piccolo. I believe that Toriyama intended more or less this logic:

- Ultimate Gohan is generally stronger than SSJ3 Goku, as well as SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu.
- BUT SSJ3 Goku can charge up his power and be briefly stronger than any of these guys. Of course, charging up takes time, which he didn't have against Super Buu.
- Buutenks, Buuhan and Vegetto are in a league of their own.

I believe Gohan is 2-3x times stronger AT MAX than an uncharged SSJ3 Goku, but SSJ3 Goku can become 1.5 to 2x times stronger than Ultimate Gohan after charging up.
I also think Kid Buu is slightly weaker than Super Buu and that's it.

Gotenks was never stronger than SSJ3 Goku just in SSJ. That was simply Toriyama joking around using Piccolo's desperation.
There was never anything serious about Gotenks vs Super Buu, excluding the last bits of SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Buu.
It was nothing but a gag fight.

Do you guys seriously, seriously think Toriyama stood there and thought to himself: "man! What a guy that Gohan is! He's thousands of times stronger than Goku! Oh, and that Gotenks dude? Yeah, he's as well". No, he never intended his protagonist to be surpassed THIS much.

This cult of an unstoppable Ultimate Gohan is all sorts of wrong.

To sum it up, that's my scaling:

Spoiler:

SSJ Vegetto > Buuhan > Buutenks >> Charged SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Fat Buu > etc.

Yup. I agree with all of this and we do have official information that puts SS Gotenks weaker than SS2 Vegeta before entering the RoSaT.

And lol at SS Trunks being equal with Zamasu. It's clear Zamasu is just fucking around with him.

It's a regular Ssj against a character stronger than SsjB. He should destroy him in seconds. Yet Trunks is putting up a fight. And Vegeta too.

What part of Zamasu is playing with them don't you understand?

[ahill1]

So apparently even absorbing the Grand Kaioshin explicitly made Buu stronger. And the Pure Buu that Goku fought was different than the original, because he had Kaioshin power.

Why do you think that?

[Zamasu55]

Yup. I agree with all of this and we do have official information that puts SS Gotenks weaker than SS2 Vegeta before entering the RoSaT.

And lol at SS Trunks being equal with Zamasu. It's clear Zamasu is just fucking around with him.

It's a regular Ssj against a character stronger than SsjB. He should destroy him in seconds. Yet Trunks is putting up a fight. And Vegeta too.

What part of Zamasu is playing with them don't you understand?

Base Freeza played with Nail, didn't see the Namekian do that well.

[ZombieVito]

So apparently even absorbing the Grand Kaioshin explicitly made Buu stronger. And the Pure Buu that Goku fought was different than the original, because he had Kaioshin power.

Why do you think that?

Dumb Toyo nonsense that I will never take into consideration while making lists.

It's a regular Ssj against a character stronger than SsjB. He should destroy him in seconds. Yet Trunks is putting up a fight. And Vegeta too.

What part of Zamasu is playing with them don't you understand?

Base Freeza played with Nail, didn't see the Namekian do that well.

Yes, because one fight of that particular nature will determine all the rest.

That sounds right.

[RandomGuy96]

Random anime thing...

It's probably a waste of time to even think about it, but in the anime, was Jiren supposed to be the most skilled fighter ever on top of being the strongest? UI's auto-dodge and auto-attack capabilities were depicted as so overwhelmingly potent that Kafla, despite explicitly being far more powerful than UI Omen Goku (to the point that a single one of her uncharged blasts could one-shot him), could not so much as lay a finger on her opponent and was defeated effortlessly. Meanwhile Jiren, who is stronger than MUI Goku but not by that much (as they were still able to grapple against each other without one being immediately crushed, and Goku got up after a few of Jiren's hits), goes blow for blow with an upgraded version of UI.

If Jiren fought a 'regular' fighter who was around his battle power (equal, slightly weaker, slightly stronger), would he just obliterate them? If he fought one a good deal stronger than him, would he also ragdoll them without them being able to touch him, as Goku did to Kafla?

[ankokudaishogun]

It's probably a waste of time to even think about it, but in the anime, was Jiren supposed to be the most skilled fighter ever on top of being the strongest?

Yep. Anime Jiren is THAT overpowered.

To be fair, though, he might not be the MOST skilled in the tournament. It's possible some of the other fighters were more skilled than him, but none of them were even near his power-level.
And those near his power-level weren't skilled enough.

On a 1-10 scale, his skill is, at worst, a 8. But his Power is 15.

[SupremeKai25]

This is the same Zamasu from the Super anime, so he is way above Super Saiyan Trunks, who in the Super anime was crushed by Base Black alone.

Also, since Zamasu still has half of Black's body, he can get stronger after surviving a great deal of pain, so Jiren's punches most likely ended up empowering him.

Also, I am not certain how Zamasu came back, I haven't been keeping up with the story, did he survive getting erased by Zeno?

[ankokudaishogun]

First: the Super anime is meaningless for power-level discussions, as only the Arcade is canon to the events.
In the Arcade it's SS3FP Cumber&Super Hearts vs Jiren, Goku&Golden Metal Coola


Trunks got a power-up in his Rage form.
And we haven't been told how Fu managed to get him away from being erased

[wolflonnie]

Also, I am not certain how Zamasu came back, I haven't been keeping up with the story, did he survive getting erased by Zeno?

Nope, no explanation given, doubt they'll give one.

[Amir]

It's probably a waste of time to even think about it, but in the anime, was Jiren supposed to be the most skilled fighter ever on top of being the strongest?

Yep. Anime Jiren is THAT overpowered.

To be fair, though, he might not be the MOST skilled in the tournament. It's possible some of the other fighters were more skilled than him, but none of them were even near his power-level.
And those near his power-level weren't skilled enough.

On a 1-10 scale, his skill is, at worst, a 8. But his Power is 15.

From the looks of it, he had the most skills because MUI had about the same raw power as Jiren, but on top of that he had perfected combat movements, and Jiren was keeping up, but we all know that it's not true because MUI Goku fought like a regular strong fighter. They never put much thought into the actual fight in the anime and only made sure it looked cool.

In the anime Jiren was able to predict Hit's movements and adapt to his time skip in seconds, but that's just an anime thing because in the manga everyone who has greater power isn't effected much by the time skip. I mean, it doesn't even make sense that Jiren or pretty much anybody else could "adapt to Hit's time skip" in the anime, because Hit increases the skipped time literally every few seconds, or at least he used to until that was abounded.

So I think Jiren had average fighting skills in the manga, and in the anime with all the bullshit, he was OP both in power and in skills.

[Zamasu55]

So apparently even absorbing the Grand Kaioshin explicitly made Buu stronger. And the Pure Buu that Goku fought was different than the original, because he had Kaioshin power.

Why do you think that?

Dumb Toyo nonsense that I will never take into consideration while making lists.

What part of Zamasu is playing with them don't you understand?

Base Freeza played with Nail, didn't see the Namekian do that well.

Yes, because one fight of that particular nature will determine all the rest.

That sounds right.

Or most likely, power levels are f'ed up.

[ahill1]

So you people think that the manga panel highlighted above implies Dai Kaioshin's absorption increased Boo's strength?

[Hugo Boss]

So you people think that the manga panel highlighted above implies Dai Kaioshin's absorption increased Boo's strength?

Just a rumor. But given that Goku and Vegeta got stronger after experiencing god power, Boo might have done that as well. At least, it explains why ki sensing doesn’t work properly on him.

In another way, the Great Supreme Kai did held back Boo as long as he was evil. What possibly made Boo stronger was stealing the god power from Great Supreme Kai after the split that made (Not so) Pure Boo.

[Koitsukai]

So you people think that the manga panel highlighted above implies Dai Kaioshin's absorption increased Boo's strength?

Even though it may not be explicit, I could believe so, yes. The reason they bring it up doesn't seem to be to retcon Kid Buu but to have a scapegoat for the missing god ki.
If there was one, apparently the increase was not as high as what Goku and Vegeta experienced themselves because that would make original Buu a joke and so would be the Kaioshin (who were suppose to be able to one-shot Freeza). That was not retconned, so original Kid Buu before god ki should still be incredibly strong, he was stronger than the Kaioshin who were what? Cell Games tier? I guess the strongest Kaioshin could be high SS2 tier and original Kid Buu somewhat higher? perhaps original Buu's power was at the level that ended Majin Vegeta's run.

The other way would be that the god ki changed nothing, maybe never tapped into it (which sounds weird because he learns anything just by looking at it and his body absorbs life power) or it was cancelled/wasted in such a creature, maybe his destructive personality prevented him from using it?

Another one would be that Kid Buu free from other influences(absorbees) can now tap into the god ki and grow stronger as the fight in Kaioshin's planet goes on, being the reason why Goku failed to gauge Buu's power and what he needed to kill him.

[HeroR]

From the looks of it, he had the most skills because MUI had about the same raw power as Jiren, but on top of that he had perfected combat movements, and Jiren was keeping up, but we all know that it's not true because MUI Goku fought like a regular strong fighter. They never put much thought into the actual fight in the anime and only made sure it looked cool.

In the anime Jiren was able to predict Hit's movements and adapt to his time skip in seconds, but that's just an anime thing because in the manga everyone who has greater power isn't effected much by the time skip. I mean, it doesn't even make sense that Jiren or pretty much anybody else could "adapt to Hit's time skip" in the anime, because Hit increases the skipped time literally every few seconds, or at least he used to until that was abounded.

So I think Jiren had average fighting skills in the manga, and in the anime with all the bullshit, he was OP both in power and in skills.

The fight looked 'normal' to us in 130 because they spent all of last episode showing us that these people were moving so fast that they looked like they weren't moving. That includes how completed Ultra Instinct was presented:

https://youtu.be/pDW5pWkvBno?t=136

They did put much thought, in that after an episode of showing us speed, they wanted us to see what the characters were actually doing.

Also, they didn't abandoned Hit adapting since he did it when he fought Dypso as Toppo explained here:

https://youtu.be/jySIrU3ni_Y?t=160

He couldn't do it against Jiren because the different between them was too vast, just ike Hit can't adapt to fight a God of Destruction even in the Champa Saga. That and Jiren was right there watching Hit fight Dypso. So it's really no different than what Goku did during the Champa Saga when he used Vegeta's fight with Hit as a template to what not to do.

Jiren was skilled, but he wasn't presented as most skilled fighter given that he nearly got knocked out by Goku in 126 and outsmarted by 17 at least twice. Even his fight with completed Ultra Instinct was less skilled base than him trying to overpowered and overwhelm Goku. Jiren was actually stronger and faster than Ultra Instinct Goku before Goku got his second wind and began to beat him back.

[omegacwa]

It's probably a waste of time to even think about it, but in the anime, was Jiren supposed to be the most skilled fighter ever on top of being the strongest?

Yep. Anime Jiren is THAT overpowered.

To be fair, though, he might not be the MOST skilled in the tournament. It's possible some of the other fighters were more skilled than him, but none of them were even near his power-level.
And those near his power-level weren't skilled enough.

On a 1-10 scale, his skill is, at worst, a 8. But his Power is 15.

I would say Goku and Vegeta are both more skilled than Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Random anime thing...

It's probably a waste of time to even think about it, but in the anime, was Jiren supposed to be the most skilled fighter ever on top of being the strongest? UI's auto-dodge and auto-attack capabilities were depicted as so overwhelmingly potent that Kafla, despite explicitly being far more powerful than UI Omen Goku (to the point that a single one of her uncharged blasts could one-shot him), could not so much as lay a finger on her opponent and was defeated effortlessly. Meanwhile Jiren, who is stronger than MUI Goku but not by that much (as they were still able to grapple against each other without one being immediately crushed, and Goku got up after a few of Jiren's hits), goes blow for blow with an upgraded version of UI.

If Jiren fought a 'regular' fighter who was around his battle power (equal, slightly weaker, slightly stronger), would he just obliterate them? If he fought one a good deal stronger than him, would he also ragdoll them without them being able to touch him, as Goku did to Kafla?

yes, its very likely he has UI levels of reflexes and skill. i doubt that someone who is high tier god of destruction level, has lived for who knows how long, has dedicated his entire life on training, would be less skilled than people like goku or vegeta. its also likely do to his immensely heighten senses, as he was able to know where hit was in his pocket dimension in 111.