Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Zarely
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:41 pm

Omgzord wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:01 am
How Jiren compares to Beerus is a big mystery. It's implied that Jiren may be stronger but Goku never made such claim yet he thought Broly was stronger than Beerus.
Well Goku didn't make a comparison but Whis said that Jiren was stronger than Belmod. Up to yet the Gods of Destruction all seem to be on the same level.
Koitsukai wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 pm
MUI Goku/Gogeta > Jiren > Broly > Vegito >Zamasu
That would seem right to me with Beerus being inbetween Vegito and Zamasu.

If suppressed Jiren is stronger than Fused Zamasu then he has to be stronger than Vegito because he wasn't a "far cry" from Zamasu. If Broly and Beerus are on the same level as Vegito then Jiren has to be stronger.

Toppo became a God of Destruction too and Jiren was well above him.

Broly could be closer to Toppo than Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:52 am

I don't think Vegito and Beerus are on the same level though, actually quite far apart from each other, and Broly I think is closer to Jiren than Toppo. Beerus I'd say is FP Jiren vs Omen Goku tier, while Vegito Blue is stronger than Zamasu but weaker than Supressed Jiren, on par at best.

About Frost, I think it is like Goku vs Freeza in Namek. FF Frost should trash base Goku just like Freeza did but SS Goku overpowered Frost like he did in Namek.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:19 pm

Zarely wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:41 pm
Omgzord wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:01 am
How Jiren compares to Beerus is a big mystery. It's implied that Jiren may be stronger but Goku never made such claim yet he thought Broly was stronger than Beerus.
Well Goku didn't make a comparison but Whis said that Jiren was stronger than Belmod. Up to yet the Gods of Destruction all seem to be on the same level.
Manga Jiren is likely on the upper end of the GoD spectrum. At the very worst comparable to Beerus, at best stronger-but-not-that-much than Beerus.

Anime Jiren basically played around with 2 GoD-class enemies(kk20 Goku and Evo Vegeta), eve if maybe in the lower end of the spectrum, and those two together were stated being able to actually compete with Beerus by Whis. Plus MVP #17 and Freeza.

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Zarely
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:23 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:52 am
I don't think Vegito and Beerus are on the same level though, actually quite far apart from each other, and Broly I think is closer to Jiren than Toppo.
But that's what was said in the manga. Even the writer of the manga wasn't sure who was meant to be stronger out of the two. Those two go together to suggest they were similar.

Gogeta was stronger than Beerus and Goku and Vegeta didn't grow much stronger from when they fought Zamasu to when they fought Broly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:20 pm

Zarely wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:23 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:52 am
I don't think Vegito and Beerus are on the same level though, actually quite far apart from each other, and Broly I think is closer to Jiren than Toppo.
But that's what was said in the manga. Even the writer of the manga wasn't sure who was meant to be stronger out of the two. Those two go together to suggest they were similar.

Gogeta was stronger than Beerus and Goku and Vegeta didn't grow much stronger from when they fought Zamasu to when they fought Broly.
I try not to merge both media because like we already know, they are too different, with Belmod in the anime as the guy that defeated Beerus while in the manga it was Quitela, to give you an example. Anyway, Toyotaro said that Shin's statement wasn't meant to be taken seriously and that Shin was probably wrong. I'll add that Shin had no idea just how powerful Beerus is, unlike Whis who knows exactly the limitations of Beerus.

While I agree that the saiyan's gains should not be astronomical, we've seen the guys during the ToP break their limits multiple times, just enough to fight as SSB (and last longer than before) against a stronger Jiren than 109 (who had already surpassed the FT arc's highest tier), enough to have their Broly movie fusion be much stronger than their FT fusion. Also, from the FT arc to the Broly arc, Goku and Vegeta have much more control over the SSB transformation, Goku can use 20xKK and Vegeta can go beyond.

I'd say Hakaishin Toppo, SS Broly, Zamasu and Vegito Blue are somewhat in the same realm. A step further I have 3rd Omen, Beerus, Jiren and FP Broly, and even further Gogeta Blue, LB Jiren and MUI Goku.

The only thing that can make Beerus FT arc tier is manga Shin's statement that is not reliable according to the author.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:20 pm
I'd say Hakaishin Toppo, SS Broly, Zamasu and Vegito Blue are somewhat in the same realm.
How is that possible? SS Broly was on par with SS Gogeta, he can't be that high.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:00 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:46 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:20 pm
I'd say Hakaishin Toppo, SS Broly, Zamasu and Vegito Blue are somewhat in the same realm.
How is that possible? SS Broly was on par with SS Gogeta, he can't be that high.
They weren't in any particular order, but still SS Broly I think is more relatable to those guys than SSB, Golden Freeza, etc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:37 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:46 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:20 pm
I'd say Hakaishin Toppo, SS Broly, Zamasu and Vegito Blue are somewhat in the same realm.
How is that possible? SS Broly was on par with SS Gogeta, he can't be that high.
What makes you think SSJ Gogeta is not also on that level?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:40 am

BagetaSama wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:37 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:46 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:20 pm
I'd say Hakaishin Toppo, SS Broly, Zamasu and Vegito Blue are somewhat in the same realm.
How is that possible? SS Broly was on par with SS Gogeta, he can't be that high.
What makes you think SSJ Gogeta is not also on that level?
Because he has 4 more transformations left. Nothing indicates that Blue Gogeta is hundreds of times stronger than Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BagetaSama » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:41 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:40 am
BagetaSama wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:37 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:46 pm

How is that possible? SS Broly was on par with SS Gogeta, he can't be that high.
What makes you think SSJ Gogeta is not also on that level?
Because he has 4 more transformations left. Nothing indicates that Blue Gogeta is hundreds of times stronger than Beerus.
......why would he need to be hundreds of times stronger than Beerus?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:10 am

I went through the Kefla episodes today. It's all very odd.

Hypothetically Super Saiyan 2 Kefla should be weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito because Kale was weaker than Goku in those forms.

But they said Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first go round and he should be stronger than Fused Zamasu.

Which would all be ok but Fused Zamasu wasn't that far from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:55 am

Kek that that last episode of Heroes. Anyway, the finalist will be:
1-Fuu
2-Gogeta
3-Gold Slayer Hearts
4-UI Goku
5-Jiren
6-Kamiuren Universal Seed
7-Golden meta cooler
8-Xeno Vegito
9-SS3 Cumber
10-Vegito.

I did not include the angles and Zamasu is an ass to rank tbh so I just ignored him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:48 am

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:10 am
I went through the Kefla episodes today. It's all very odd.

Hypothetically Super Saiyan 2 Kefla should be weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito because Kale was weaker than Goku in those forms.

But they said Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first go round and he should be stronger than Fused Zamasu.

Which would all be ok but Fused Zamasu wasn't that far from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.
Kefla's might is not just power, though that was what triggered Goku's UI.

She also gets Caulifla's super-fighting-genious, which makes her more EFFECTIVE and likely also increased the growth ratio.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:18 am

Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:55 am
Kek that that last episode of Heroes. Anyway, the finalist will be:
1-Fuu
2-Gogeta
3-Gold Slayer Hearts
(...)
Why you have Fuu stronger than Gogeta?!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:18 am
Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:55 am
Kek that that last episode of Heroes. Anyway, the finalist will be:
1-Fuu
2-Gogeta
3-Gold Slayer Hearts
(...)
Why you have Fuu stronger than Gogeta?!
Dunno. I just feel like he's the big bad guy of all of this so he's likely way stronger than Hearts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:30 pm

Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:18 am
Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:55 am
Kek that that last episode of Heroes. Anyway, the finalist will be:
1-Fuu
2-Gogeta
3-Gold Slayer Hearts
(...)
Why you have Fuu stronger than Gogeta?!
Dunno. I just feel like he's the big bad guy of all of this so he's likely way stronger than Hearts.
whatever he showed in the prison planet was below that power. he may have something that would require more than just blue gogeta (perfect opportunity for UI Fusion), but currently, he isnt that strong




AND boi Jiren asking why they didnt fuse in the ToP was something i was waiting for. The answer vegeta gave was ass tho.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:19 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:30 pm
Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:18 am

Why you have Fuu stronger than Gogeta?!
Dunno. I just feel like he's the big bad guy of all of this so he's likely way stronger than Hearts.
whatever he showed in the prison planet was below that power. he may have something that would require more than just blue gogeta (perfect opportunity for UI Fusion), but currently, he isnt that strong




AND boi Jiren asking why they didnt fuse in the ToP was something i was waiting for. The answer vegeta gave was ass tho.
Where would you rank him then? He has to be above SS3 Cumber at least.

As for why they didn't lose:
Vegeta didn't know how to do the fusion dance back then and with the possibility of them messing up and wasting 30 min of the tournament, Gogeta was out of the question. Vegito on the other hand... Beerus's, reason for not wanting them to fuse was just so they don't reduce their numbers.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:12 pm

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:10 am
I went through the Kefla episodes today. It's all very odd.

Hypothetically Super Saiyan 2 Kefla should be weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito because Kale was weaker than Goku in those forms.

But they said Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first go round and he should be stronger than Fused Zamasu.

Which would all be ok but Fused Zamasu wasn't that far from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.
I know, right? two SS2-SS3 level characters that couldn't touch a tired SSGod, fusing an becoming stronger than ToP SSG in base and SSBKK in SS, and in SS2 making Omen Goku work for the win makes little sense. Although I wouldn't say she was stronger than Omen Goku.

To explain this I guess we could remark Goku's on-going fatigue and Kale's Broly-like form that might have become unlocked some more when fused or best used by a more calm mind or even amplified, and now with some headcanon: some boost the potara might lend to such close friends. But scratch that last comment.
My money is on Kale's odd nature though, she clearly is weaker than Broly but she should have a hell of a potential, and it might have struck gold with the potara.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:12 pm
I know, right? two SS2-SS3 level characters that couldn't touch a tired SSGod, fusing an becoming stronger than ToP SSG in base and SSBKK in SS, and in SS2 making Omen Goku work for the win makes little sense. Although I wouldn't say she was stronger than Omen Goku.
Well Base Vegito was seemingly stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku so I don't really have a problem with Base Kefla being stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Whis said that Super Saiyan Kefla's power was comparable to the Spirit Bomb. So she wasn't as strong as Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first time because Whis said his power was higher than the Spirit Bomb.

Piccolo said Super Saiyan 2 Kefla's power surpassed Gokus the first time he used Ultra Instinct Omen. So that's all straight forward enough.

Where do Fused Zamasu, Vegito Blue and Beerus fit in though?

If Super Saiyan Kefla was comparable to a Spirit Bomb and Fused Zamasu was killed by Trunks when he absorbed the Spirit Bomb then you'd think the former was stronger.

But then Fused Zamasu did match Blue Vegito who should be vastly stronger than even Super Saiyan 2 Kefla.

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than the first Ultra Instinct Omen Goku which matched suppressed Jiren who was seemingly above Fused Zamasu too.

It's weird, Kefla shouldn't be as strong as Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:18 pm

Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:19 pm
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:30 pm
Omgzord wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 am


Dunno. I just feel like he's the big bad guy of all of this so he's likely way stronger than Hearts.
whatever he showed in the prison planet was below that power. he may have something that would require more than just blue gogeta (perfect opportunity for UI Fusion), but currently, he isnt that strong




AND boi Jiren asking why they didnt fuse in the ToP was something i was waiting for. The answer vegeta gave was ass tho.
Where would you rank him then? He has to be above SS3 Cumber at least.

As for why they didn't lose:
Vegeta didn't know how to do the fusion dance back then and with the possibility of them messing up and wasting 30 min of the tournament, Gogeta was out of the question. Vegito on the other hand... Beerus's, reason for not wanting them to fuse was just so they don't reduce their numbers.
well yes, i have him well above ssj3 cumber (I'm sure he was shown to be above golden great ape cumber). tho ssj3 cumber in the anime stopped being impressive ever since suppressed jiren was shown to be above even that, and cooler also trashed him , so there is that. so at least in the anime, Fuu can sit comfortably above ssj3 cumber while being below these extreme power houses like Gogeta and hearts.


for now at least. he could (probably will) very well show something above what he did in the prison planet arc.

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