Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:19 pm

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:46 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:12 pm
I know, right? two SS2-SS3 level characters that couldn't touch a tired SSGod, fusing an becoming stronger than ToP SSG in base and SSBKK in SS, and in SS2 making Omen Goku work for the win makes little sense. Although I wouldn't say she was stronger than Omen Goku.
Well Base Vegito was seemingly stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku so I don't really have a problem with Base Kefla being stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku.

Whis said that Super Saiyan Kefla's power was comparable to the Spirit Bomb. So she wasn't as strong as Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first time because Whis said his power was higher than the Spirit Bomb.

Piccolo said Super Saiyan 2 Kefla's power surpassed Gokus the first time he used Ultra Instinct Omen. So that's all straight forward enough.

Where do Fused Zamasu, Vegito Blue and Beerus fit in though?

If Super Saiyan Kefla was comparable to a Spirit Bomb and Fused Zamasu was killed by Trunks when he absorbed the Spirit Bomb then you'd think the former was stronger.

But then Fused Zamasu did match Blue Vegito who should be vastly stronger than even Super Saiyan 2 Kefla.

Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than the first Ultra Instinct Omen Goku which matched suppressed Jiren who was seemingly above Fused Zamasu too.

It's weird, Kefla shouldn't be as strong as Zamasu.
Why do you think she shouldn't be that strong? I do agree that her being stronger than 1st Omen is a bit too much and unnecessarily overpowers the remaining portion of the ToP, but doesn't bother me that much by surpassing Zamasu.

To me, Beerus rests confortably somewhere close to 3rd Omen and Jiren. The anime has no statements from Shin to mess with us, so nothing touches Beerus from the FT arc, IMO.

FT arc Blue Goku proved that with his full power and a little kaioken he could be a pest for Zamasu, even if it was at his early stages. By the ToP I assume he'd be somewhat stronger, he did trained with almost all of the squad, fought Freeza, withstand a hakai energy and even died "training" with Hit. Then he got hit by the Jiren bus, broke his limits and came back stronger enough to, at least, give Jiren a less embarrasing fight later, and he almost rings Jiren out with a strategy that required an enhanced agility compared to the one displayed in 109.
Well, SS Kefla could match that Goku as SSBKK, who probably wasn't far from Merged Zamasu's full power. I don't see a problem if her SS2 closes the gap with Zamasu and even surpasses it.

Vegito Blue is the problem. He should've stomped Zamasu from the get go, Goku had managed to hurt him, he should've been overkill, maybe like what Kefla would be. Him being relative to Zamasu makes him look lackluster. It is unfair though how we gauge his full power, if Zamasu wasn't immortal that FKHH might have disintegrated him and put him apart. Probably that attack would be something you'd need to be SS2 Kefla to resist.
IIRC, the statement about Jiren surpassing Zamasu didn't include Vegito Blue, so his FP that wasn't properly appreciated because of Zamasu's immortality.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:35 pm

Well Zamasu did power up between fighting Goku and Vegito when he summoned power from the rift.

It just doesn't seem right that Kefla could be stronger than him considering the fight he put against Blue Vegito. You'd think a Super Saiyan 2 fusion would be much further away from a Blue fusion than what Zamasu did.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:09 pm

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:35 pm
Well Zamasu did power up between fighting Goku and Vegito when he summoned power from the rift.

It just doesn't seem right that Kefla could be stronger than him considering the fight he put against Blue Vegito. You'd think a Super Saiyan 2 fusion would be much further away from a Blue fusion than what Zamasu did.
Specially when none of the fusees has god ki or a form above god tier to justify it, the only explanation I have is pure headcanon and it's that Kale's green Broly-like SS has to be much more than what she showed. At least, potential-wise, or the Potara really gets the full potential out of it. For instance, if it were Cabba+Caulifla with their regular forms becoming stronger than Merged Zamasu, Vegito Blue and Omen Goku, I wouldn't be able to buy it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 pm

So you think Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:02 pm

BagetaSama wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:41 am
......why would he need to be hundreds of times stronger than Beerus?
Because he's already putting SS Broly/Gogeta up there with GoD Toppo, FT Vegetto Blue and Fused Zamasu. All 3 of them are already low/mid GoD tier and are not dozens of times weaker than Beerus.
Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:10 am
I went through the Kefla episodes today. It's all very odd.

Hypothetically Super Saiyan 2 Kefla should be weaker than Super Saiyan God Vegito because Kale was weaker than Goku in those forms.

But they said Super Saiyan 2 Kefla was stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen Goku the first go round and he should be stronger than Fused Zamasu.

Which would all be ok but Fused Zamasu wasn't that far from Super Saiyan Blue Vegito.
Fused Zamasu and FT Vegetto Blue aren't weaker than the first 2 UIO Gokus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:16 pm

Honestly, imo, I actually see SS2 Kefla on the same tier of power as GoD Toppo and Fused Zamasu's full power, which is to say, above Suppressed Jiren and (first) Omen Goku.

Despite what Shin said, it is arguable that he was also gauging Jiren's full power. The same demonstration prompted Whis to compare Jiren to literal Gods of Destruction or even above, after all.

Think it like this. The U7 Spirit Bomb was stronger than SSBKKx20. Kefla rivaled that power and defeated Goku. So her Super Saiyan is more than 20x stronger than Goku as Blue. If I were to argue WHERE the U7SB would sit in power, I'd make a concession and put it together with SSj Broly and Gogeta, at about 50x stronger than current Goku at Blue. Those are just numbers tho, they don't actually prove anything narrative-wise, but following.

Jiren, without using ki, was absolutely capable of beating that Spirit Bomb, so his power is greater than SSj Broly, Gogeta and Kefla. That much is a given. But GoD Toppo and SSj2 Kefla ARE stronger than the Omen that matched Jiren, even if only slightly. That's STILL not close to the bonafide level of a GoD, but is perhaps bordering enough to be considered on their tier.

I want to mention now that Kefla's SSj is not the regular transformation. So her SSj2 doesn't need to follow the same rules. It could, very well, match a SSGod Vegito, for example.

But because Merged Zamasu did fight Vegito Blue and was somewhat holding his own, I would put him at actually higher than GoD Toppo and SSj2 Kefla. Perhaps weaker than every GoD active, but still strong enough to challenge Vegito Blue. With Jiren's normal full power resting at the very top and more than capable at wiping the floor with them all.

So kinda like this
Jiren
Higher GoDs and 3rd Omen Goku
Middle GoDs (and FT Vegito Blue?)
Lower GoDs (And FT Vegito Blue?)
Sidra
Merged Zamasu
GoD Toppo/SSj2 Kefla/2nd Omen Goku

Suppressed Jiren
Omen Goku
U7 Spirit Bomb/SSj Broly/SSj Gogeta/SSj Kefla

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:32 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:02 pm
Fused Zamasu and FT Vegetto Blue aren't weaker than the first 2 UIO Gokus.
Them how do you explain the comparisons with the Spirit Bomb?

What about how Ultra Instinct Omen Goku matched a Jiren who was all but said to have surpassed Fused Zamasu with Kefla being stronger than that Goku?
Thani wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:16 pm
Jiren, without using ki, was absolutely capable of beating that Spirit Bomb, so his power is greater than SSj Broly, Gogeta and Kefla. That much is a given. But GoD Toppo and SSj2 Kefla ARE stronger than the Omen that matched Jiren, even if only slightly. That's STILL not close to the bonafide level of a GoD, but is perhaps bordering enough to be considered on their tier.
It was mentioned that even had Goku absorbed the power of that Spirit Bomb it wouldn't have been enough to match Jiren and Whis said his strength was greater than that. With Super Saiyan Keflas power only being comparable to the Spirit Bomb then the initial Ultra Instinct Goku would be stronger than her at the least.

Trunks however absorbed a smaller spirit bomb and that gave him the power to kill Fused Zamasu. Which by that regard would make you think that Super Saiyan Kefla would be at least as strong as Trunks in that moment and therefore stronger than Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:44 pm

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:32 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:02 pm
Fused Zamasu and FT Vegetto Blue aren't weaker than the first 2 UIO Gokus.
Them how do you explain the comparisons with the Spirit Bomb?

What about how Ultra Instinct Omen Goku matched a Jiren who was all but said to have surpassed Fused Zamasu with Kefla being stronger than that Goku?
Because, as I also said, Shin could have very well be referring to Jiren's full power, just like Whis.
Thani wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:16 pm
Jiren, without using ki, was absolutely capable of beating that Spirit Bomb, so his power is greater than SSj Broly, Gogeta and Kefla. That much is a given. But GoD Toppo and SSj2 Kefla ARE stronger than the Omen that matched Jiren, even if only slightly. That's STILL not close to the bonafide level of a GoD, but is perhaps bordering enough to be considered on their tier.
It was mentioned that even had Goku absorbed the power of that Spirit Bomb it wouldn't have been enough to match Jiren and Whis said his strength was greater than that. With Super Saiyan Keflas power only being comparable to the Spirit Bomb then the initial Ultra Instinct Goku would be stronger than her at the least.

Trunks however absorbed a smaller spirit bomb and that gave him the power to kill Fused Zamasu. Which by that regard would make you think that Super Saiyan Kefla would be at least as strong as Trunks in that moment and therefore stronger than Zamasu.
Yes, as a Super Saiyan, Kefla was not stronger than first Omen Goku, who matched a Jiren that bested that Spirit Bomb. As Super Saiyan 2, she overcame that wall, and prompted 2nd Omen Goku to do the same.

The thing with Trunks could also be explained, besides PLOT, with Gowasu's theory about Zamasu's immortality failing him. As he was getting pummeled by Vegito and becoming more and more mutated, imbalanced and grotesque, his power could have been showing cracks as well. Trunks himself DIDN'T show to be stronger than his usual Rage form, but rather, Zamasu was previously stated to have become slower.

So Zamasu being so unstable that his immortality couldn't keep up with his beatings, which made him vulnerable enough to get sliced in half, is something I'm quite ok with. Despite being glorified headcanon on my part hahaha

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:40 pm

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:49 pm
So you think Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegito?
I really can't say just how strong Vegito Blue was, his full power can't be really measured because of Zamasu's hax. But with SS2 Kefla surpassing 1st Omen Goku, I can see her getting to his level. Probably all of them are somewhat close to each other, Kefla, Toppo, Zamasu, and Vegito, whose full power is a mystery.

My list
- Jiren
- Beerus
--------
- Vegito Blue/GoD Toppo/Vegeta
- SS2 Kefla
- Zamasu
------
-Golden Freeza

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:43 am

Zarely wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:32 pm
Them how do you explain the comparisons with the Spirit Bomb?

What about how Ultra Instinct Omen Goku matched a Jiren who was all but said to have surpassed Fused Zamasu with Kefla being stronger than that Goku?
What about the Genkidama?

Goku matched nothing. Jiren didn't even get serious.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:20 am

Goku matched the suppressed Jiren implied to be stronger than Fused Zamasu. Therefore Goku should be stronger also but leave that aside.

Trunks absorbed a Spirit Bomb and it gave him enough power to overpower Zamasu. Regardless of his immortality failing him possibly, Trunks was just stronger than him.

The first time that girl Goku transformed into Ultra Instinct his strength was said to be greater than the Spirit Bomb, one that was good chunk larger too.

It would make no sense for Zamasu to be near as strong as that Goku.

SSJ2 Kefla > UIO Goku > SSJ Kefla = Large Spirit Bomb > Trunks after absorbing a smaller Spirit Bomb > Zamasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:15 am

Zarely wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:20 am
Goku matched the suppressed Jiren implied to be stronger than Fused Zamasu. Therefore Goku should be stronger also but leave that aside.

Trunks absorbed a Spirit Bomb and it gave him enough power to overpower Zamasu. Regardless of his immortality failing him possibly, Trunks was just stronger than him.

The first time that girl Goku transformed into Ultra Instinct his strength was said to be greater than the Spirit Bomb, one that was good chunk larger too.

It would make no sense for Zamasu to be near as strong as that Goku.

SSJ2 Kefla > UIO Goku > SSJ Kefla = Large Spirit Bomb > Trunks after absorbing a smaller Spirit Bomb > Zamasu
Again, Goku matched nothing. Just because they traded blows doesn't mean they are on par. Later on even Blue Goku does that too and we all know Jiren is maghintudes stronger than a Super Saiyan Blue.

When it comes to Toei, if a fighter absorbs energy it always multiplies their power a great deal. Just look how the energy of 4 near death fighters gave Goku enough power to beat Broly in movie 8. Zamasu could have also gotten weaker thanks to the damage Vegetto did to him.

At the end of the day Goku and Vegeta haven't gotten massively stronger since the FT arc so Vegetto Blue shouldn't be THAT far off the likes of Beerus or Gogeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zarely » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:15 am
Again, Goku matched nothing.
No, they said as much.
Zamasu could have also gotten weaker thanks to the damage Vegetto did to him.
"Could" is an assumption. No such thing was said.

Meanwhile it was shown that Goku's Spirit Bomb was larger, said that as Ultra Instinct his strength was greater than it and shown that Zamasu was overpowered by Trunks after absorbing a smaller Spirit Bomb.

If Trunks can overpower Zamasu then so could Goku. Goku was stronger than Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:31 am

I think a lot of the recent discussion misses some key context.

For example, Future Trunks didn't beat Merged Zamasu with a Genkidama. He used a Genkidama SWORD. Blades are notoriously strong if you can form them, especially since Future Trunks formed it around his pure Ki sword. Also, Merged Zamasu is an abhorrently evil entity whose body was falling apart, and as soon as he was cut down, his soul ascended into something even greater.

As far as Jiren is concerned, this a case of his level of suppression denoting how powerful he is, rather than the power displayed in this suppressed state itself. He was far from full power and still easily stalemating SSB/KKx20 Goku's push with the Genkidama, something he managed in a tired base form against Pure Buu several years prior where the difference was SS3-fold.

As for Kefla, it's important to note that Ultra Instinct Omen Goku's attack strength isn't quite up to snuff with his reflexes and speed. His raw power, greater than SSB/KKx20, still isn't quite so high overall compared to the power of the complete version that surpasses Gods of Destruction.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:34 am

S, what's up with the inconstant time limit? In both Broly movie and Heroes anime, Gogeta seems to get the full 30 min no matter how much power he uses but Vegit on the other have this handicap to last only for freaking 5 min if he fights seriously.

Why is Vegito so much weaker than Gogeta anyway.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:01 am

Omgzord wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:34 am
S, what's up with the inconstant time limit? In both Broly movie and Heroes anime, Gogeta seems to get the full 30 min no matter how much power he uses but Vegit on the other have this handicap to last only for freaking 5 min if he fights seriously.

Why is Vegito so much weaker than Gogeta anyway.
In the broly movie, Gogeta probably lasted the entire time do to the fact that he didnt need to fight at full power.
In Heroes, dont know.

and why is Vegito so much weaker than Gogeta? because the game and anime wanted it to be that way, for no good reason.

Canon wise, they are both currently treated as equal.
Last edited by Kenneth La Torre on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am

Fused Zamasu was never a league (in terms of raw power) for vegito once vegito got serious. The remaining portion of the fight was Vegito shitting on Zamasu and Zamasu tanking it thanks to his immortality. what ever applies to merged zamasu, does not apply to Vegito at all (He is stil inferior to Jiren and UI Goku)

And God Toppo and Fused Zamasu are no where near beerus, at all. The only statement we got on beerus is that he is either on 3rd UI omen level or completed UI level, and even 3rd UI omen Goku would slap both of them silly in a second.

This section has a habit of downplaying Beerus and Broly as well. I'm not even a proponent that Broly > Jiren, but even i realize that Broly has been the only one so far compared to Beerus, while in Jirens case, no direct comparisons have been made in the anime or manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Omgzord » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:31 am

Yeah, not buying this "Jiren > Beerus" either unless the show specifically addresses it.

All Jiren has is some vague statement about being in the domain of GoDs MAYBE surpassing it.
Yet, the very same power that defeated him "Ultra Instinct" is only referred to as the "breaking power of gods" or "domain of gods"
The only thing we know for sure about Jiren is that he's stronger than Belmod and that's all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:59 pm

Zarely wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:27 am
"Could" is an assumption. No such thing was said.

Meanwhile it was shown that Goku's Spirit Bomb was larger, said that as Ultra Instinct his strength was greater than it and shown that Zamasu was overpowered by Trunks after absorbing a smaller Spirit Bomb.

If Trunks can overpower Zamasu then so could Goku. Goku was stronger than Zamasu.
Goku literally burned himself out trying to fight Jiren and the latter was fine. They were not on par at all.

Goku never absorbed the Genkidama though. Trunks did and that's a bigger boost.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Fused Zamasu was never a league (in terms of raw power) for vegito once vegito got serious. The remaining portion of the fight was Vegito shitting on Zamasu and Zamasu tanking it thanks to his immortality. what ever applies to merged zamasu, does not apply to Vegito at all (He is stil inferior to Jiren and UI Goku)

And God Toppo and Fused Zamasu are no where near beerus, at all. The only statement we got on beerus is that he is either on 3rd UI omen level or completed UI level, and even 3rd UI omen Goku would slap both of them silly in a second.
That was because of speed. When they clash fists, they seem on par.

I never said they where near Beerus though. Just not that far off. A 5 or 6 to Beeru's 10.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:47 pm

Omgzord wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:31 am
Yeah, not buying this "Jiren > Beerus" either unless the show specifically addresses it.

All Jiren has is some vague statement about being in the domain of GoDs MAYBE surpassing it.
Yet, the very same power that defeated him "Ultra Instinct" is only referred to as the "breaking power of gods" or "domain of gods"
The only thing we know for sure about Jiren is that he's stronger than Belmod and that's all.
Well, the statement about Jiren is pretty straight forward and comes from a source that should be indisputable about the topic(nobody knows Beerus more than Whis), he is stronger than Belmod who is sort of comparable to Beerus, and the latter even lost a strenght contest to Belmod.
It is logical to assume that if Jiren powers up to a degree that his mates can't even believe (when trying to knock out 3rd Omen Goku), and then breaks his own limits and with that power he puts MUI Goku in trouble, that he will become MUCH stronger than Belmod, enough to be also stronger than those that are relatable or that have lost in some way to him. Also the power that defeated Jiren needed to be upgraded a bit because he was actually overpowering UI at first.

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