I'm not going to get into the nuances of strategy vs tactics vs improvisation. The characters formulated a plan, carried it out, and won by thinking through the problem in front of them. That's eough for meMasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:35 amNeither of those were “all strategy” but characters flying by the seat of their pants.It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:The climax of the first dragon ball hunt is also all strategy. From Oolong cheating Pilaf out of a wish to Yamcha holding Oozaru Goku in place long enough for Puar to cut off his tail. While I do still think that overall power battle is the deciding factor in who wins throughout DB, there was a lot of inventiveness to the early fights.
Unpopular DB opinions
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
It's a very quick plan, but still a plan.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:35 amNeither of those were “all strategy” but characters flying by the seat of their pants.It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:The climax of the first dragon ball hunt is also all strategy. From Oolong cheating Pilaf out of a wish to Yamcha holding Oozaru Goku in place long enough for Puar to cut off his tail. While I do still think that overall power battle is the deciding factor in who wins throughout DB, there was a lot of inventiveness to the early fights.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
You misunderstand the point I was trying to make then, I wasnt implying that there wasnt any strategy at all, I was countering the assertion that Pre-Z's battles seem to hold more thought or strategy put into them tournament or otherwise, as opposed to anything post Raditz's arrival.ABED wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:02 amI'm disagreeing with you.goku the krump dancer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:25 am Can’t tell if you’re agreeing with or not man.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Fair enough, though I do think it's a fair statement to say the strategies were more interesting.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Any examples? the Roshi thing when he and Goku double clashed to end the 21st tournament is cool if it was predetermined by Roshi himself instead of him coming to that conclusion after the fact, because that would equate to nothing more but dumb luck as opposed to him bating Goku into a double jump kick because he knew his legs were longer and thus hit first and have more impact.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
He did bait Goku into it, though. He doesn't explain it until afterwards but thinks to himself about their differences in body types before going into the kick.goku the krump dancer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:47 pm Any examples? the Roshi thing when he and Goku double clashed to end the 21st tournament is cool if it was predetermined by Roshi himself instead of him coming to that conclusion after the fact, because that would equate to nothing more but dumb luck as opposed to him bating Goku into a double jump kick because he knew his legs were longer and thus hit first and have more impact.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Gotcha.. Its been a while since I've seen the fight in full. I knew he explained what happened but i was remembering it as him just drawing the conclusion after the fact.Gaffer Tape wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:59 pmHe did bait Goku into it, though. He doesn't explain it until afterwards but thinks to himself about their differences in body types before going into the kick.goku the krump dancer wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:47 pm Any examples? the Roshi thing when he and Goku double clashed to end the 21st tournament is cool if it was predetermined by Roshi himself instead of him coming to that conclusion after the fact, because that would equate to nothing more but dumb luck as opposed to him bating Goku into a double jump kick because he knew his legs were longer and thus hit first and have more impact.
That's still only one example, granted i wouldn't put that over anything in the later half of the series, its still cool though especially in the Mentor/ Student role that he and Goku were in at the time so it fits perfectly.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
As much as people say Boo arc is terrible due to its changes as the story progresses I think it still feels pretty organic to me, instead of a arc that would have this one antagonist that would be defeated by this only protagonist all going straight.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I enjoy it more than I used to but it's not organic. It's clear Toriyama wanted to push the next generation to the front and changed his mind.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Not saying I necessarily disagree, but why do you say that?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
I honestly thought you were making a joke that it's less organic because it's all... Artificial.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm ...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
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Current Episode: Attack of the Member Berries - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Super #17 Arc Part 3
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
When has the next antagonist of a DB arc EVER been defeated by the previous villain going straight? Or did you word that poorly?
As for the Buu Saga, the majority of shit that happens in that arc is NOT organic after Majin Buu appears for the first time. Up until then, it was pretty good. Light-hearted fun sprinkled in with some seriousness that was shaping up to be a pretty good final arc. However, with Toriyama, he clearly had TOO MANY ideas for what he wanted to do & his writing style didn't lend too well to this. His spontaneity & penchant for thinking on his feet didn't show up well. Probably because he was clearly burnt out. After Buu himself shows up, things slowly begin happening just because. Because Toriyama thought they were cool? Partly. Partly because he had too many ideas? Yep. Partly just because? Oh yeah.
You ever hear the creators of South Park describe the perfect direction of storytelling? It's usually connecting plot points with "because" & "therefore", maybe some "So's" as well, to create a clear narrative through-line from beginning to end of a successful plot &, if you don't do that, the audience will notice & feel something's off about the story (which, say what you want about South Park, they're right about storytelling). Here's how the Saiyan Saga evolves its plot as it goes.
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However, the Buu Saga is a different beast altogether. On top of having bad storytelling that doesn't have a lot of cause to effect, it has a LOT of mood whiplash at times.
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Last edited by Scsigs on Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
Bless you, Gaffer Tape.Gaffer Tape wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:56 pmI honestly thought you were making a joke that it's less organic because it's all... Artificial.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm ...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
I don't think you can boil down subversion of expectation down to some set of arbitrary rules, nor do I think the issue of the arc is one of density. Yes, a lot of stuff happened. It's a long arc. The fundamental issues are it's not focused; Toriyama changes his mind midstream and it's very apparent, and it manages to simultaneously be too drawn out and move too damn fast like he was speeding towards the end.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
So far the Moro arc is the best thing to come from Super since BoG.
my reasons are
Moro is so far the most enjoyable and well executed villain.Zamasu is the best Super villain conceptually but Moro nails both
Vegeta and Goku are doing new and interesting training methods. I love the fact that Vegeta has headed to Yardrat and Goku training with this new angle like figure it's really cool. However Goku's is less interesting since he has already been training with an angle but still there are new elements to it.
The side characters get to shine in a far more satisfying way then T.O.P If you've read the new chapter, you know what I mean. In early Z and original Dragon Ball I love the "Dragon Team" every incarnation of them. I love the classic "Hold em off until blank" gang it's just so fun. It isn't making others look weak just appreciating the strength of others.
So far I have been thoroughly enjoying the arc as it makes me think of what Super could have been
Also another opinion is SSG should have been the last form in super. I wish Super had no SSB or Ultra Instinct and that Beerus fighting at 60% was still cannon. I wish super was all build up to a rematch between SSG Goku and Beerus with every arc having the Saiyans learn to master the form a bit more. While not visible strength still, I would have preferred it.
my reasons are
Moro is so far the most enjoyable and well executed villain.Zamasu is the best Super villain conceptually but Moro nails both
Vegeta and Goku are doing new and interesting training methods. I love the fact that Vegeta has headed to Yardrat and Goku training with this new angle like figure it's really cool. However Goku's is less interesting since he has already been training with an angle but still there are new elements to it.
The side characters get to shine in a far more satisfying way then T.O.P If you've read the new chapter, you know what I mean. In early Z and original Dragon Ball I love the "Dragon Team" every incarnation of them. I love the classic "Hold em off until blank" gang it's just so fun. It isn't making others look weak just appreciating the strength of others.
So far I have been thoroughly enjoying the arc as it makes me think of what Super could have been
Also another opinion is SSG should have been the last form in super. I wish Super had no SSB or Ultra Instinct and that Beerus fighting at 60% was still cannon. I wish super was all build up to a rematch between SSG Goku and Beerus with every arc having the Saiyans learn to master the form a bit more. While not visible strength still, I would have preferred it.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
No blessings for me? I made the joke possible. LOL.ABED wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:05 pmBless you, Gaffer Tape.Gaffer Tape wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:56 pmI honestly thought you were making a joke that it's less organic because it's all... Artificial.Cure Dragon 255 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:24 pm ...I honestly dont know. I thought it would be fun to poke the more popular arc but I never thought about what I would do later on.
I don't think you can boil down subversion of expectation down to some set of arbitrary rules, nor do I think the issue of the arc is one of density. Yes, a lot of stuff happened. It's a long arc. The fundamental issues are it's not focused; Toriyama changes his mind midstream and it's very apparent, and it manages to simultaneously be too drawn out and move too damn fast like he was speeding towards the end.
But yeah. God Bless you Gaffer Tape!
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
The threats follow from one to other pretty easily it's just that when you take a step back there is soooo much going on. The Cell Arc had a similar problem but it also had the benefit of being a time travel story, something that audiences expect to be somewhat convoluted as the alterations to the timeline pile up. Buu Arc on the otherhand has an even more convoluted villain situation with no protagonist to hold all the story together and even more fakeouts. It's an exhausting arc even if it's easy to see how all the pieces fit together.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.
"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes
"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes
Re: Unpopular DB opinions
There are also gigantic leaps in logic, asspulls, things being introduced quickly & dropped just as quickly, things that were just introduced to force the plot along, invalidating genuinely heartwarming moments very quickly, & changing how the logic of things look as things went along. I explain exactly what here: viewtopic.php?p=1633535#p1633513It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: ↑Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:05 am The threats follow from one to other pretty easily it's just that when you take a step back there is soooo much going on. The Cell Arc had a similar problem but it also had the benefit of being a time travel story, something that audiences expect to be somewhat convoluted as the alterations to the timeline pile up. Buu Arc on the other hand has an even more convoluted villain situation with no protagonist to hold all the story together and even more fakeouts. It's an exhausting arc even if it's easy to see how all the pieces fit together.
It's a shame, since the arc started out really well in its prologue too.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions
The Cell arc has a good sense of progression. We are introduced to the concept and the mere act of someone traveling back through time messes with the timeline and audience expectations. Once we get to Cell, two of the cyborgs that were introduced are necessary for his transformations, and the third one is a wildcard who it turns out was necessary for Gohan to transform.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.