Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

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Melee_Sovereign
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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:57 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:14 pm
How many people though?
It's not like I kept count, dude. But a lot.

Just because you were unaware of them does not mean they never existed, they were there, I saw them on some of the older forums.
I'm not saying they never existed. I'm saying some people heard the jokes from DBZA first. i.e. DBZA is responsible for perpetuating it. I was using myself as an example.

So no it's not a direct example in the least.
Uhh, yes it is! They're literally taking a licensed character, putting it in one of their episodes that millions of people watch, and using his TFS parody portrayal, instead of a more faithful portrayal! And they're using the exact voice actor of the parody for it. If DBZA never existed, I highly doubt they would have portrayed Goku like this.

And I've known people personally who got their first impression of Goku this way, and they end up thinking he's actually like that.

Besides Toriyama himself pretty much outright said Goku wasn't a great dad.
"Death of the Author" is a useful concept here.
Last edited by Melee_Sovereign on Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:35 pm Even the abridged series went back on Goku being a bad dad so it seems weird people are still calling Goku a bad dad while using the TFS parody as their frame of reference.
Because the damage is already done.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:50 pm

No getting rid of a shithead like Crowder would not be "censoring free speech", good lord you really don't know anything do you? :roll: Guess we can add censorship to the list of things you know nothing about it. Youtube should actually enforce it's own damn terms of service and Crowder's hateful bigoted content directly goes against them(oh but of course Youtube will instantly demonitize video that has "trans" in the title, yeah that seems real fair :lolno: )but of course since he gets a ton of views Youtube won't dare get rid of him.

Man defending a nazi like Crowder, I didn't think you could possibly get any lower, but you sure proved me wrong. :sick:

This is going to be the last time i'm wasting my breath on a bigot like you, you have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute, so I can safely ignore every single thing you've said as it means nothing coming from a bigot.

"differing views" don't make me laugh, after seeing what some bigots call "differing views" i'm not even going to ask what you mean by that, because I already know the answer(you're one of those "hur dur trans people should not be using MY bathrooms!" creeps)

I've already reported your posts to the mods because of you being a bigoted asshole, somehow I don't think they are going to take too kindly to you dismissing valid concerns GSRM have.

To any mods viewing this thread I apologize for dragging this out, I should've stopped wasting my time with this user a lot sooner, but I foolishly believed I could get them to listen to reason, guess not.
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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Michsi » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:57 am

Melee_Sovereign wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:57 pm
Besides Toriyama himself pretty much outright said Goku wasn't a great dad.
"Death of the Author" is a useful concept here.
[/quote]


It's also one of the misused and poorly understood concepts. It was never meant to be interpreted as "I don't like what author so I'm going to ignore their existence." The bad dad thing was widely discussed in the fandom, TFS only helped turn it into a meme.

Having said that, yes, TFS influence stretched wide and once you have people claiming DBZA was the best way to experience DB then , as the IP owner, you have real reason to be concerned.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Planetnamek » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:21 am

Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:57 am
Melee_Sovereign wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:57 pm
Besides Toriyama himself pretty much outright said Goku wasn't a great dad.
"Death of the Author" is a useful concept here.

It's also one of the misused and poorly understood concepts. It was never meant to be interpreted as "I don't like what author so I'm going to ignore their existence." The bad dad thing was widely discussed in the fandom, TFS only helped turn it into a meme.

Having said that, yes, TFS influence stretched wide and once you have people claiming DBZA was the best way to experience DB then , as the IP owner, you have real reason to be concerned.
[/quote]
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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Michsi » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:38 am

Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:21 am
Toei never had anything to fear from a silly internet series that was only giving them free publicity.
You don't know that. We don't know what was going on behind the scenes. Countless people have already stated that so many recommended DBZA as the best way to experience DB so we can assume some chose to forgo acquiring the actual show in favor of the free abridged one. I have seen people claim that. The silly internet series pulled millions of views. There was a time where I couldn't open a DB related clip that wasn't filled with Abridged quotes.

You posted that clip of what went on in 2019 with 2uper- that shows how much power fan-based groups can have. I hope the insiders didn't get any flak, but you know who did? Toei. Their tweets are inundated with "Where's 2uper?" , "Give Super." People turned on the company and that is just bad PR, even though they technically did nothing wrong.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Planetnamek » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:20 am

Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:38 am
Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:21 am
Toei never had anything to fear from a silly internet series that was only giving them free publicity.
You don't know that. We don't know what was going on behind the scenes. Countless people have already stated that so many recommended DBZA as the best way to experience DB so we can assume some chose to forgo acquiring the actual show in favor of the free abridged one. I have seen people claim that. The silly internet series pulled millions of views. There was a time where I couldn't open a DB related clip that wasn't filled with Abridged quotes.

You posted that clip of what went on in 2019 with 2uper- that shows how much power fan-based groups can have. I hope the insiders didn't get any flak, but you know who did? Toei. Their tweets are inundated with "Where's 2uper?" , "Give Super." People turned on the company and that is just bad PR, even though they technically did nothing wrong.
"Countless people" is a big exaggeration, even amongst TFS fans i've only seen a small handful outright say that.
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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Michsi » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:25 am

Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:20 am
Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:38 am
Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:21 am
Toei never had anything to fear from a silly internet series that was only giving them free publicity.
You don't know that. We don't know what was going on behind the scenes. Countless people have already stated that so many recommended DBZA as the best way to experience DB so we can assume some chose to forgo acquiring the actual show in favor of the free abridged one. I have seen people claim that. The silly internet series pulled millions of views. There was a time where I couldn't open a DB related clip that wasn't filled with Abridged quotes.

You posted that clip of what went on in 2019 with 2uper- that shows how much power fan-based groups can have. I hope the insiders didn't get any flak, but you know who did? Toei. Their tweets are inundated with "Where's 2uper?" , "Give Super." People turned on the company and that is just bad PR, even though they technically did nothing wrong.
"Countless people" is a big exaggeration, even amongst TFS fans i've only seen a small handful outright say that.
If I've seen claims like this popping up several times in the course of ten years without even looking for them, I assume it's more than just a handful. In the end, DBZA tells the story in a humorous way and those with just a passing interest in DB that maybe would've wanted to check it out could very well turn to the shortened, parody version of it.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:38 am

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:50 pm I've already reported your posts to the mods because of you being a bigoted asshole, somehow I don't think they are going to take too kindly to you dismissing valid concerns GSRM have.
And I really hope they give it a good read over and try to stay objective instead of seeing "he seems to be supporting Vic, KILL HIM!", just as well as I hope Vegetto checks in on this thread and sees how you've made a complete mockery of it despite his and everyone else's attempts to explain the simple facts like how Copyright Law and Fair Use work, why DBZA doesn't qualify for Fair Use protections, and you thinking copyright laws should reform to benefit a specific subset of Youtubers that make the kind of content you like because ... well you still haven't really given us anything close to an answer that isn't "because I like this kind of content and want to see more of it" isn't remotely a valid argument. Really though, I anticipate them reading through it and seeing that you've been essentially going off the deep end over, yes, a differing of opinions. Mine being that:

1. no one is obligated to like or condone your alternate reality homoerotic fanfiction of canonically straight characters, especially anyone officially tied to the show. and they definitely aren't obligated to sign it

2. If fans of my works (should I ever published or released them... ha ha ha) want to take my characters and use them in their fan fiction, whatever, but do so with respect for how I wrote them and the characters I intended them to be; my straight characters remained straight, my gay characters remain gay, and my xenosexual characters exclusively fucking aliens. Regardless, I think it's very tasteless to bring erotic fanfiction to an official meet and greet in general.

3. all discrimination is equally bad regardless of who is on either side, it also isn't a pissing contest where we compare who has historically had it the worst and the winner gets some moral high ground that invalidates everyone else's race or gender related problems.

4. double standards like "no, it's only problematic when you do it, when we do it, it's ok" are also bad

5. that white people aren't magically except from being discriminated against

6. that we shouldn't retcon our established characters into minorities, but rather create new (and I guess I have to clarify GOOD/WELL WRITTEN) characters who represent that minority from the start. Hell, I've even gone on to praise good examples of this happening already in Marvel comics.

From that very little insight into my political or social views, you managed to label me a white supremacist troll and accused of trying to erase the GSRM from history by not acknowledging the previously alluded to FANFICTION has any power whatsoever to sway public awareness or acceptance of of the GSRM community.

1. is only offensive if you think your or anyone's fanfictions are entitled to recognition or validation of any kind from the staff behind the show.
2 I don't see how my preference that the if my characters are to appear in other works, fan or otherwise, they should reflect the actual characters I wrote and not just be a skin suit for some OC sex slave suddenly swinging for the other fences is a bad thing unless of course you think you have some right to claim over my character designs.
3. is a egalitarian viewpoint, not a Nazi/white supremacist one.
4. Same as 3.
5. isn't an offensive statement in the slightest unless you think minorities have an exclusive claim on the concept of discrimination. To which point I'd suggest picking up a dictionary.
6. is seemingly controversial for some reason far beyond my understanding

And I take huge offense to that shit you said about discrimination against whites not being a real thing or being so rare a thing that they aren't worth bringing up because as it implies that shit like this (https://www.nydailynews.com/news/nation ... -1.1033062) isn't a blatant hate crime and discrimination or worse, that because others have historically had it worse, was never even worth acknowledging.
To any mods viewing this thread I apologize for dragging this out, I should've stopped wasting my time with this user a lot sooner, but I foolishly believed I could get them to listen to reason, guess not.
Oh get the hell off your high horse. The reason this thread has lasted this long is because despite repeatedly having people explain to you why you're wrong about Fair Use and DBZA in relation to it, you've been doing the equivalent of a child sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming so they can't hear their parent explaining things to them and going "no u" when called out for using strawman. Like, to the point of hilarity; changing from avoiding giving any straight response to the calls into question whether your stance on this subject was actually backed in fact and research or whether it was solely based on your biased desire to continue getting content that's constantly being struck for copyright violations (because people keep pushing the letter falsely assuming that "Fair Use" is not only a defacto right given to any content created, but a catch all protection that's only meant to weed out when someone is uploading full, unedited episodes/movies/songs) to just baselessly calling everything anyone else has to say a strawman. Despite the fact that you're the one who kept trying to steer the conversation away from whether TFS qualified for Fair Use or not to "what about the livelihood of Youtube reviewers? Won't someone please think of the livelihood of Youtube reviewers?!"

Just because someone doesn't see eye to eye with you on the topics of discrimination or gender politics (we agree on more than you think, you just won't read what the fuck I'm typing and keep dismissing it all as being bigoted), doesn't mean they're a literal fucking Nazi you dope. Lastly this whole "I perceive you as a morally in the wrong about something, therefore any facts that actually do come out of your mouth, even on unrelated topics, are invalid" mindset is the single most toxic bullshit to have ever come out of the far left and it's a lot of the reason so many non-extreme leftists don't want to identify with the political movement. Reality and facts don't change because you don't like the person speaking. It wouldn't matter if it was fucking Adolf Hitler himself teaching your psychics class, the calculation e=mc2 doesn't stop being the factual formula for the mass–energy equivalence, just because the person teaching it to you is factually a bad person.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Skar » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:28 am

I'm not sure of the influence TFS had on the revival. TFS started in 2008 but I believe Kai was already in production since it came out the following year. If it wasn't for TFS and other fan projects that came out around that time like DBM, Toyble's AF, and New Age, I probably wouldn't have joined a DB forum because they reignited my interest in the series. I would've still checked out the revival but I guess treated it like other revivals and silently binge watch it when it's over without discussing anything online.

Whatever influence TFS did have, I wouldn't say it had a negative impact. I enjoyed most parody films like Naked Gun, Hot Shots, and Scary Movie. They didn't hurt my enjoyment of the films or genre they were parodying. Those would have a bigger impact if any since they're Hollywood films and not fan projects.
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:50 pmI've already reported your posts to the mods because of you being a bigoted asshole, somehow I don't think they are going to take too kindly to you dismissing valid concerns GSRM have.
This is really necessary? It's a difference of opinion but Zeon_Grunt was been pretty respectful. The majority of internet arguments don't change anything in the real world so no need to get this worked up over them. Threatening to report them or get them banned isn't going to change their opinion.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:22 am

Having a heated argument regarding whether or not DBZA qualifies as Fair Use seems kind of moot at this point, since TFS is no longer doing it.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Planetnamek » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:55 am

WittyUsername wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:22 am Having a heated argument regarding whether or not DBZA qualifies as Fair Use seems kind of moot at this point, since TFS is no longer doing it.
Yeah I suppose so, I really should stop wasting time with obvious trolls like Zeno(he thinks i'm the one that made a "mockery" of this thread and is "going off the deep end" LOL wow he truly is delusional :lol: he's the toxic dope child sticking his fingers in his ears that needs to get off his high horse, he really is getting desperate for attention like a spoiled brat and it looks we can add facts to the list of things he knows nothing about along with discrimination, there's a world of difference between black folks cracking jokes at white folks and white folks using institutional racism to target minorities, but I guess expecting him to know that is like expecting a monkey to write a novel)

FYI that Daily News article wasn't a hate crime, there's zero evidence the guy was targeted for being white. Looks like this guy is one of those South Park "both sides suck!" stans.

I fail to see how bringing fanfiction to a creator is "tasteless" at all
Skar wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:28 am I'm not sure of the influence TFS had on the revival. TFS started in 2008 but I believe Kai was already in production since it came out the following year. If it wasn't for TFS and other fan projects that came out around that time like DBM, Toyble's AF, and New Age, I probably wouldn't have joined a DB forum because they reignited my interest in the series. I would've still checked out the revival but I guess treated it like other revivals and silently binge watch it when it's over without discussing anything online.

Whatever influence TFS did have, I wouldn't say it had a negative impact. I enjoyed most parody films like Naked Gun, Hot Shots, and Scary Movie. They didn't hurt my enjoyment of the films or genre they were parodying. Those would have a bigger impact if any since they're Hollywood films and not fan projects.
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:50 pmI've already reported your posts to the mods because of you being a bigoted asshole, somehow I don't think they are going to take too kindly to you dismissing valid concerns GSRM have.
This is really necessary? It's a difference of opinion but Zeon_Grunt was been pretty respectful. The majority of internet arguments don't change anything in the real world so no need to get this worked up over them. Threatening to report them or get them banned isn't going to change their opinion.
I see nothing "respectful" about repeating arguments verbatim that i've seen by Gamergaters on social media all the time, this whole "oh white people are discriminated against just as much as minorities are!" and "men are sexualized just as much as women!" nonsense is a dangerous lie that I won't allow to stand, and i'm sure Kunzait would agree with me on that. I don't give a rat's ass about changing their opinion, I just want them gone.
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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:31 pm

The premise behind this idea is insane absurb and only holds water if you closed yourself from the outside world and surrounded within a bubble of one dmall part of the NA Dragon Ball fandom.
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Skar » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:44 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:55 amI see nothing "respectful" about repeating arguments verbatim that i've seen by Gamergaters on social media all the time, this whole "oh white people are discriminated against just as much as minorities are!" and "men are sexualized just as much as women!" nonsense is a dangerous lie that I won't allow to stand, and i'm sure Kunzait would agree with me on that. I don't give a rat's ass about changing their opinion, I just want them gone.
When he say that? I might've missed it but it sounds like he's saying that all forms of discrimination are wrong based on his most recent post and spent most of the previous pages explaining what fair use was without attacking anyone.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Planetnamek » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 pm

Skar wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:44 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:55 amI see nothing "respectful" about repeating arguments verbatim that i've seen by Gamergaters on social media all the time, this whole "oh white people are discriminated against just as much as minorities are!" and "men are sexualized just as much as women!" nonsense is a dangerous lie that I won't allow to stand, and i'm sure Kunzait would agree with me on that. I don't give a rat's ass about changing their opinion, I just want them gone.
When he say that? I might've missed it but it sounds like he's saying that all forms of discrimination are wrong based on his most recent post and spent most of the previous pages explaining what fair use was without attacking anyone.
The problem with that is white people do not experience anywhere NEAR the amount of discrimination that minorities do and he fails to grasp that, he's like one of those people that keeps saying "All Lives Matter" in response to the concern groups like Black Lives Matter raise. When you've spent as much time as I have on pro-black websites like The Root, you start to recognize subtle forms of racism like that.

Most of Zeno's ignorance in that area was displayed on the Vic thread, once you read his posts there you'll see what i'm getting at.
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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Melee_Sovereign » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:25 pm

Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:57 am
It's also one of the misused and poorly understood concepts. It was never meant to be interpreted as "I don't like what author so I'm going to ignore their existence."
Then what does it mean? Because this makes it sound like it means that an interpretation of a fictional work should pay no consideration to author intention. It's even cited as the opposite of Word of God. Basically, it's the understanding that fictional work, in a sense, takes on a life of its own. The authors are not like the gods of their creation. They're more like the parents. Parents don't have absolute control, or an absolute understanding on how their offspring will manifest into the world. And that can hold true with an author and their fictional creation.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't completely adhere to just Death of the Author, or Word of God. I think both concepts can be useful, depending on the situation, and the author. I think Toriyama is just one of those authors who often doesn't know exactly what he's talking about when it comes to his own work, especially considering his writing style and lack of planning ahead. Dragon Ball is one of those works of fiction that basically has a life of its own. Many of the things that happen in Dragon Ball, happen organically, which I think is partly what adds to its worldwide appeal.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Skar » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:29 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:55 pmThe problem with that is white people do not experience anywhere NEAR the amount of discrimination that minorities do and he fails to grasp that, he's like one of those people that keeps saying "All Lives Matter" in response to the concern groups like Black Lives Matter raise. When you've spent as much time as I have on pro-black websites like The Root, you start to recognize subtle forms of racism like that.

Most of Zeno's ignorance in that area was displayed on the Vic thread, once you read his posts there you'll see what i'm getting at.
I'm a minority and I agree all forms of discrimination are wrong. I'm just saying that he's not the only person who shares his opinion so trying to shut him down won't solve anything. He's being pretty civil and not attacking anyone. Whenever politicals are brought up online, they usually turn into a heated off topic argument that doesn't go anywhere. If you're asking to get the mods involved, they would probably recommend staying on topic and what this thread was originally about.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Michsi » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:00 pm

Melee_Sovereign wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:25 pm
Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:57 am
It's also one of the misused and poorly understood concepts. It was never meant to be interpreted as "I don't like what author so I'm going to ignore their existence."
Then what does it mean? Because this makes it sound like it means that an interpretation of a fictional work should pay no consideration to author intention. It's even cited as the opposite of Word of God. Basically, it's the understanding that fictional work, in a sense, takes on a life of its own. The authors are not like the gods of their creation. They're more like the parents. Parents don't have absolute control, or an absolute understanding on how their offspring will manifest into the world. And that can hold true with an author and their fictional creation.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't completely adhere to just Death of the Author, or Word of God. I think both concepts can be useful, depending on the situation, and the author. I think Toriyama is just one of those authors who often doesn't know exactly what he's talking about when it comes to his own work, especially considering his writing style and lack of planning ahead. Dragon Ball is one of those works of fiction that basically has a life of its own. Many of the things that happen in Dragon Ball, happen organically, which I think is partly what adds to its worldwide appeal.

What I meant by that is that fans have come to apply this concept on a case by case basis often times when they feel dissatisfied with a choice the author makes. It's not so much as isolating the work from the author's intentions, political leanings, etc, but discrediting them out right almost out of spite. The case of "Goku is a bad father" is specifically interesting because it can be argued that the text itself supports that notion, so the author's comments are in line with what the text shows you. I myself had notions of this before I ever read those interviews in which he claims this (they predate TFS and the internet meme), so applying this concept here is questionable. Yes, there have been times in which Toriyama forgot one thing or another, or sometimes he contradicted himself in later interviews, but those were mostly trivial things. When it comes to Goku's characterization, he has been pretty consistent.

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:31 pm

Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:00 pm
Melee_Sovereign wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:25 pm
Michsi wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:57 am
It's also one of the misused and poorly understood concepts. It was never meant to be interpreted as "I don't like what author so I'm going to ignore their existence."
Then what does it mean? Because this makes it sound like it means that an interpretation of a fictional work should pay no consideration to author intention. It's even cited as the opposite of Word of God. Basically, it's the understanding that fictional work, in a sense, takes on a life of its own. The authors are not like the gods of their creation. They're more like the parents. Parents don't have absolute control, or an absolute understanding on how their offspring will manifest into the world. And that can hold true with an author and their fictional creation.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't completely adhere to just Death of the Author, or Word of God. I think both concepts can be useful, depending on the situation, and the author. I think Toriyama is just one of those authors who often doesn't know exactly what he's talking about when it comes to his own work, especially considering his writing style and lack of planning ahead. Dragon Ball is one of those works of fiction that basically has a life of its own. Many of the things that happen in Dragon Ball, happen organically, which I think is partly what adds to its worldwide appeal.

What I meant by that is that fans have come to apply this concept on a case by case basis often times when they feel dissatisfied with a choice the author makes. It's not so much as isolating the work from the author's intentions, political leanings, etc, but discrediting them out right almost out of spite. The case of "Goku is a bad father" is specifically interesting because it can be argued that the text itself supports that notion, so the author's comments are in line with what the text shows you. I myself had notions of this before I ever read those interviews in which he claims this (they predate TFS and the internet meme), so applying this concept here is questionable. Yes, there have been times in which Toriyama forgot one thing or another, or sometimes he contradicted himself in later interviews, but those were mostly trivial things. When it comes to Goku's characterization, he has been pretty consistent.
It is interesting however that while Toriyama himself has maintained that "lousy father" point about Goku, the anime staff at Toei especially during Z did much to massively downplay it likely because they decided they wanted to deviate from this aspect and interpret the character in their own ways. Hence all the scenes and such which paint a much different picture in terms of Goku's relationship with his sons but especially Gohan during his childhood years.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

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Re: Team Four Star's influence on Dragon Ball's revival

Post by Michsi » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:40 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:31 pm
It is interesting however that while Toriyama himself has maintained that "lousy father" point about Goku, the anime staff at Toei especially during Z did much to massively downplay it likely because they decided they wanted to deviate from this aspect and interpret the character in their own ways. Hence all the scenes and such which paint a much different picture in terms of Goku's relationship with his sons but especially Gohan during his childhood years.

Which is something he later stated he had always been dissatisfied with (forgot which interview) The biggest example of this how Goku reacts to Goten in the manga and how Toei had him react in the anime. Night and day.
A lot of people blamed TFS for Goku's rougher characterization in Super, particularly when it came to parenting, but I just think this was Toei trying to match Toriyama's version and maybe overcompensating a bit from time to time.

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