Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

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Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Kokonoe » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 am

Like when it comes to being more modern the Faulconer Productions OST has a lot more going for it than the Kikuchi score which goes for a more old-timey kind of thing. Even in the era it debuted in, it was still a mismatch of content of the time. Faulconer Production's used the latest synth tech to create an atmospheric kind of OST.

The fight scenes are easily a lot better in Faulconer's because they are more engaging, diverse, and play with more energy which matches what's being portrayed on screen vs the Kikuchi score which has a lot of very slow brass sounds "DUN DUN DUN....!".

Even the calmer music is better especially on the slice of life moments where it feels cheery and peaceful.

The fact also that they were not hindered by making something specific for the OST but what they felt would fit the scenes on the screen and carefully created on each second really sends it a step above the traditional approach.

What do you think?

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Arteaga4K » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:49 am

Uh oh.....
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Arteaga4K » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:52 am

Even though I disagree, it's your opinion at the end of the day. I think the Japanese OST could've used a little more variety (Toei being Toei), but it's hard for me to say a replacement score is objectively better than the score it was originally created for
How I enjoy Dragon Ball:
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3. Z FUNimation original 1999-2003 dub (no score changes, redubs, etc)

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 am

I'll let you know after I've listened to Mezase Tenkaichi and Red Ribbon Army another fifteen bajillion times.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Kokonoe » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:05 am

Arteaga4K wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:52 am
Even though I disagree, it's your opinion at the end of the day. I think the Japanese OST could've used a little more variety (Toei being Toei), but it's hard for me to say a replacement score is objectively better than the score it was originally created for
How respectable of you you are quite the gentleman. :)

My view is that because the manga was designed without a OST in mind and both are trying to make music fit where music didn't exist prior, especially with how extensive the Faulconer Productions went with going by each frame of the show, it matters not where the music originates but what does a better job. And for me the job Faulconer Productions did does that.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:17 am

Nope. Maybe it would've been better on another show, but I could never get behind it with DB as it always felt off and unnatural.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:49 am

I grew up with the Faulconer score, so I know I'm a bit biased. However, I do think the Faulconer score made the show more exciting. The futuristic synth sounds especially fit well during the Android/Cell sagas. And come on. The SS3 reveal is just not the same without this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4E83RKavUU

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by jaisonas » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:53 am

At the end of the day, the Faulconer soundtrack does a really good job at catering to kids and transforming the show from "characters powering up via dramatic moments" to "characters powering up and it a cool af moment" which is basically what American tv wanted i guess.
However its totally not suitable for any form of story delivery or drama, and its inability to use silence enhances this.
I've enjoyed it as a kid but i've grown out of it.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Planetnamek » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:05 am

jaisonas wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:53 am
At the end of the day, the Faulconer soundtrack does a really good job at catering to kids and transforming the show from "characters powering up via dramatic moments" to "characters powering up and it a cool af moment" which is basically what American tv wanted i guess.
However its totally not suitable for any form of story delivery or drama, and its inability to use silence enhances this.
I've enjoyed it as a kid but i've grown out of it.
Funny I actually like it more as an adult now then I did as a kid.

I'm sure Kunzait will have a novel-length post tearing Faulconer a new asshole any day now :lol:
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:33 am

Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:05 am
Funny I actually like it more as an adult now then I did as a kid.

I'm sure Kunzait will have a novel-length post tearing Faulconer a new asshole any day now :lol:
I'm a fan of synth but... come on. Faulconer's score sounds as if the only music he'd ever listened to was Bret Hart's WWF theme.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Metalwario64 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:45 am

I feel like we had this thread not too long ago...

And no, I am super nostalgic for the Faulconer crew's score (and there are some legitimately very good tracks in it), but the Japanese score is timeless and very memorable. Plus it fits the martial arts core of the series. There was a time I might have said I preferred Faulconer's score over Sumitomo's, but with the Broly film it's definitely going to Sumitomo (that is, if we ever have another Dragon Ball anime).
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:46 am

Personally I'll take stolen music over synth with the bass stripped out, haha.

I'll give it one piece of credit though: it uses consistent themes just like Kikuchi did, which is more than what Yamamoto did. Kikuchi makes the most sense though, especially because he's the only composer who did the entire story from start to finish.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Metalwario64 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:49 am

KBABZ wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:46 am
Personally I'll take stolen music over synth with the bass stripped out, haha.

I'll give it one piece of credit though: it uses consistent themes just like Kikuchi did, which is more than what Yamamoto did. Kikuchi makes the most sense though, especially because he's the only composer who did the entire story from start to finish.
I don't know.

Both Yamamoto and Faulconer's scores were repetitive, but Yamamoto outright reused musical ideas all over the place when he wasn't plagiarizing. I saw a video (by kei I think) years ago pointing out so many of his tracks end with a 2-3 note stab. Plus, most of his music was just ripped off and barely modified from so many other composers. I would much rather have Faulconer's score to be honest. Maybe even over Sumitomo's Kai score (even if that has a few tracks I love. It has soooooo many I hate.)

I'll take well placed original series Kikuchi over them all though (as much as Sumitomo's Broly score pumps me up.)
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by ABED » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:20 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:33 am
Planetnamek wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 4:05 am
Funny I actually like it more as an adult now then I did as a kid.

I'm sure Kunzait will have a novel-length post tearing Faulconer a new asshole any day now :lol:
I'm a fan of synth but... come on. Faulconer's score sounds as if the only music he'd ever listened to was Bret Hart's WWF theme.
Yes, but not the cooler version in the later part of his run, rather the version when he first became a single's competitor.

And no, there isn't a single thing the Faulconer score did better, not the least of which sound remotely fitting for a martial arts story based on a Chinese fantasy genre.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:42 am

Kokonoe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 am
Like when it comes to being more modern the Faulconer Productions OST has a lot more going for it than the Kikuchi score which goes for a more old-timey kind of thing. Even in the era it debuted in, it was still a mismatch of content of the time. Faulconer Production's used the latest synth tech to create an atmospheric kind of OST.
More modern =/= better.

Guardians Of The Galaxy is a significantly more modern, more technically impressive, more current movie than Spider-Man, even by the standards of just the years they were released in (Spider-Man is a very oldschool movie in a lot of ways; it feels like almost a throwback to the '70s Superman movies in a lot of ways). Does that make Guardians the better movie?
I wouldn't say so.

And, hey, I mentioned Superman there... Man Of Steel is undoubtedly a more modern film than the '70s Superman. Does that make it a better film? HFIL NO!
Kokonoe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 am
The fact also that they were not hindered by making something specific for the OST but what they felt would fit the scenes on the screen and carefully created on each second really sends it a step above the traditional approach.
I think what you mean here is that the Faulconer score was specifically composed by Team Faulconer with the finished episodes in mind, with them composing it to exactly fit the visuals, whereas Kikuchi's was packages of pre-composed pieces. Apologies if I've got that wrong, but I think that's what you mean?
The truth is, both approaches are very widely used, and are both entirely valid ways to compose a score. One is not inherently better than another, they tend to create different types of a score.
Kokonoe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 am
The fight scenes are easily a lot better in Faulconer's because they are more engaging, diverse, and play with more energy which matches what's being portrayed on screen vs the Kikuchi score which has a lot of very slow brass sounds "DUN DUN DUN....!".

Even the calmer music is better especially on the slice of life moments where it feels cheery and peaceful.

What do you think?
Here is the crux of this thread. In your sole opinion, Kikuchi's score is not as good as Faulconer's score. In your opinion, Faulconer's music hypes up/engages/diversifies the music in the fight scenes, and the calmer music is "better"/"cheery"/"peaceful" in ways Kikuchi's score is not.

The fact is: You can't say one score is better than the other, because it is entirely based on opinon. So no, it is not time to "accept" that one score is better than another.
The hardcore fandom could be more accepting of other fans' opinions; generally, you'll get a bit of a ribbing if you're a fan of the Faulconer score, any of the English dubs, etc. But the reasons people dislike these things are entirely valid, just as the reasons people like these things are entirely valid.

If you ask me, the Faulconer score is immediately made difficult to listen to from the fact it sounds so cheap, like it was recorded using the cheapest, most basic MIDI synthesisers they could find, and the compositions themselves are a mixed bag; while there are a lot of great pieces (the Vegeta theme with the bells, for instance), a huge portion of the score is really bland, and the placement is awful (there's CONSTANT droning on of the music, it just doesn't stop! It's tiring. There's no space!), so... To me, it's not a good score. I love the ways the score was used in the Legacy Of Goku 2 & 3 soundtracks, but in the show, it simply doesn't work, for me.

The Kikuchi score is a very classical score; beautifully recorded from real instruments, every single piece is memorable thanks to the fact they're all generally quite simple, strong melodies, and a lot of the score tends to be based around leitmotifs like Piccolo's ever-evolving theme, which allows the score to change up its tone and style but because it's continually reusing the same melodies, the themes stick in your head really well.
And there were so many packages of good Kikuchi music, just crazy variety there. And the score itself is very good at leaving space for the performers to really shine (which is bad news for Funi's in-house dubs, where the intense Faulconer score helps disguise the lacklustre performances, but that specific case aside, it's a good thing).

So, for me, Kikuchi is the better score, by far. But that's purely an opinion. The synthesisers used in Faulconer's score may sound perfect to your ears, and you may just not like the classical feel of Kikuchi's score. And that's fine.
Last edited by Robo4900 on Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:46 am

I've always preferred Team Faulconer to Kikuchi myself, although Kikuchi has grown on me quite a bit over the years.

I don't think the Faulconer score gets enough credit for how it handled some of the more peaceful scenes, like Goku saying goodbye to Mystic Gohan, or the part where everyone gets revived after Namek. Anyone who says it's nothing but mindless rock clearly hasn't heard it in its entirety, as it makes some of the really touching moments more... touching?

Aside from that it absolutely nails the big moments, like Goku going SS3, Vegeta turning SS1, Gohan going Mystic, the final beam struggle vs Cell, Kid Buu's death etc..

I know it's nothing like what you would ever hear in the Wuxia genre, and nothing like how Toriyama would have wanted, but for what Funimation's English dub of Dragon Ball Z was trying to be it fit perfectly. And it's damn good music on its own too, although I will acknowledge it was hurt by lack of silent moments.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by KBABZ » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:59 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:42 am
Kokonoe wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:44 am
Like when it comes to being more modern the Faulconer Productions OST has a lot more going for it than the Kikuchi score which goes for a more old-timey kind of thing. Even in the era it debuted in, it was still a mismatch of content of the time. Faulconer Production's used the latest synth tech to create an atmospheric kind of OST.
More modern =/= better.
Wish one of the Kai producers remembered that...

DBZ is an OLD show, and trying to make it more modern only works until the moment the OP ends and you snap back to the 80s/90s art style on decades-old film stock, which no amount of 7.1 cinematic orchestrals ripped from Avatar can cover up.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by Rory » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:20 am

I'll admit, the clickbait title did get me.
Though if you are serious, not being 'cheesy' is not a strength Faulconer has one Kikuchi or.. frankly any soundtrack. It's loaded with cheese, it's a three cheese melt. It's aged like fucking milk to the point that it's become cheese. It's about as awkward 80's synth as you can get.

I'll summarise what I said in a recent topic in the music section: I grew up on Faulconer, but the older I get, the worse the OST becomes. I can barely listen to them for a nostalgia trip these days, as the sound is hollow, the soundfont is genuinely cringe-worth, and the compositions aren't as great as the defenders make them sound.

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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:06 am

I really have no strong nostalgic attachment to the Team Faulconer music, even with it being what i heard on a regular basis with watching DBZ on Toonami as a child. Once exposed to the Japanese version and the original Kikuchi OST it almost immediately became irrelevant to me in terms of my regular viewing of the series, and since then i've strongly felt the latter fits the series far better when compared to the wall to wall synth assault that Faulconer's score is. Thing is, the latter only worked with the old heavily altered dub that FUNi was producing in a specific time and place back in the late '90s/early 2000's which they've long since stopped doing.

In short, no i don't believe that the Faulconer score is better than Kikuchi's.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it time to accept Faulconer OST did it better than the original?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:19 am

Only when hell freezes over...
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Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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