Information on Super Saiyan 4's power

[Mad Swami]

The fight wasn't shown, but he was SS and was about to fight Kid Buu confidently in his mental training then his mental training was interrupted.

If the fight is never shown then how do you know he used SSJ and not SSJ3?

[QuakingStar]

Let's slow this down for you.
[base form power A] + [base form power B] x 1,000 = base form power of base form fusion.. BASE FORM.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING SSGSS IN THIS??

also HOLY SHIT DUDE. Their base forms are not SSGod level, they only has SSGod levels of power in their SS FORMS BEFORE they awakened God-like Saiyan and SSGSS.. then their normal SS forms were all returned to them along with the actual SSGod form. They can now transform back into SSGods. Why do you keep making stuff up???

btw edit your message next time kid, stop double posting.

and what the fuck does CAPSULE CORP GOKU using SSGod against Cumber have to do with Xeno Goku who was using SS4 for the ENTIRE DAMN PRISON PLANET SAGA??

[Mad Swami]

Xeno Goku only be came a SSGod in Ultimate Mission X which is seperate from Heroes... in the arcade, manga, and anime he never once went SSGod and didn't even know what it was.

When fighting SSGSS Goku he never indicates a lack of knowledge of it, he absorbed the god base still because all Xeno Goku's are the same they all exist in the DBO timeline as the same character

[Mad Swami]

Let's slow this down for you.
[base form power A] + [base form power B] x 1,000 = base form power of base form fusion.. BASE FORM.

WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU GETTING SSGSS IN THIS??

Let's slow this down for you
Android 17 in power, is SSGSS level in the anime. He does not have SSGSS he is just in that league of power. Good so far? Ok now we get tricky, you saying Gogeta base>SSGSS Goku using this formula implies you can quantify SSGSS multiplier which you can't

[Mad Swami]

also HOLY SHIT DUDE. Their base forms are not SSGod level, they only has SSGod levels of power in their SS FORMS BEFORE they awakened God-like Saiyan and SSGSS.. then their normal SS forms were all returned to them along with the actual SSGod form. They can now transform back into SSGods. Why do you keep making stuff up???

No, they have been confirmed to be ssg level. So many instances. Goku vs Frieza, Goku Black, Copy Vegeta (which is cannon to the anime). Not to mention, this is never conveyed to the audience, this is the most head cannony response I have ever seen

[Mad Swami]

and what the fuck does CAPSULE CORP GOKU using SSGod against Cumber have to do with Xeno Goku who was using SS4 for the ENTIRE DAMN PRISON PLANET SAGA??

I said, Xeno Goku and the manga, not CC Goku nor did I mention the anime like what

[QuakingStar]

No they don't. Different versions of events and continuities.. and for DBS Goku image training its DBS Chapter 1. I know more than you and its painfully clear you have not and are not doing your research, you are just here to argue and derail the thread. You are still not getting that SSGSS Goku was fighting near evenly with Wrath State Broly, who then goes SS and regains the edge by a good margin on SSGSS Goku, who then goes back to base form and then fuses with base form Vegeta to form base form Gogeta who is able to run from SS Broly and then go SS himself and then FIGHT SS Broly about even. But then we go back to base Kefla vs God Goku.. she outclassed him in all ways. He goes SSGSS forcing Kefla to go SS showing a 50x God increase as the anime has shown. ALL evidence, not ONE piece of evidence. Point at what I have been saying. You keep looking at a few outliers to try and debunk all the other evidence including retcons that have been stacked against your stupid argument when all you are succeeding in doing is derailing the thread off and irritating people. Go fucking read.

Also I read the manga, I have the chapters translated. Xeno Goku never went SSGod at all, ever. STOP. MAKING. SHIT. UP.

[Mad Swami]

No they don't. Different versions of events and continuities.. and for DBS Goku image training its DBS Chapter 1. I know more than you and its painfully clear you have not and are not doing your research, you are just here to argue and derail the thread.

Then educate me, how do you know he used SSJ1 I want to know. I read the manga and am reading it, don't recall it's been awhile

[Mad Swami]

You are still not getting that SSGSS Goku was fighting near evenly with Wrath State Broly, who then goes SS and regains the edge by a good margin on SSGSS Goku, who then goes back to base form and then fuses with base form Vegeta to form base form Gogeta who is able to run from SS Broly and then FIGHT SS Broly about even.

I never contested that, but I will correct you on one thing. Base Gogeta never fights SSJ Broly

[QuakingStar]

Dude you ever heard of Saiyans gettings stronger through training and Zenkai?? Thats how they got to this "SSGod level" bullshit you keep bringing up. It is literally explained in the series too. They can transform into SSGod after awakening God-like Saiyan and SSGSS so that alone debunks your head canon.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6504/8a9531597ad ... 685_hq.jpg

he doesn't even bother going SS3 to fight Kid Buu in the mental training, only SS.

[Mad Swami]

But then we go back to base Kefla vs God Goku.. she outclassed him in all ways. He goes SSGSS forcing Kefla to go SS showing a 50x God increase as the anime has shown. ALL evidence, not ONE piece of evidence. Point at what I have been saying. You keep looking at a few outliers to try and debunk all the other evidence including retcons that have been stacked against your stupid argument when all you are succeeding in doing is derailing the thread off and irritating people. Go fucking read.

yes Kefla does her whole showing.... against an exhausted Goku. Kefla also utilizes the strange fluctuating power of Kale's form amplifying it to try and explain her ssgss+ levels of power

[Mad Swami]

Also I read the manga, I have the chapters translated. Xeno Goku never went SSGod at all, ever. STOP. MAKING. SHIT. UP.

That I did fuck up on, I rechecked it and I got that confused that's my bad

[Mad Swami]

Dude you ever heard of Saiyans gettings stronger through training and Zenkai?? Thats how they got to this "SSGod level" bullshit you keep bringing up. It is literally explained in the series too. They can transform into SSGod after awakening God-like Saiyan and SSGSS so that alone debunks your head canon.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6504/8a9531597ad ... 685_hq.jpg

he doesn't even bother going SS3 to fight Kid Buu in the mental training, only SS.

"My head cannon".... ok. Well first no, it is never shown Goku lost the power of ssg in his base. Zenkais are great, but not that great. Not to mention they I think are stated by Trunks in the manga to have lost them, not too sure on that but I think I remember a panel about that. I never said they couldn't go SSG it's just the Goku that fought Beerus is several times weaker than SSG Goku now, it's not comparable. Base Goku in any arc after BoG would demolish SSg Goku from BoG

[Mad Swami]

Dude you ever heard of Saiyans gettings stronger through training and Zenkai?? Thats how they got to this "SSGod level" bullshit you keep bringing up. It is literally explained in the series too. They can transform into SSGod after awakening God-like Saiyan and SSGSS so that alone debunks your head canon.

https://pm1.narvii.com/6504/8a9531597ad ... 685_hq.jpg

he doesn't even bother going SS3 to fight Kid Buu in the mental training, only SS.

He did that in the real fight, they don't even exchange blows in this, this proves nothing. He does that against Jiren too, because he is a martial artist, he isn't one who likes to unleash his full power right from the gate. It is an art to him, he works up to it building momentum for a more impactful fight.

[QuakingStar]

Base Goku had trained with Whis for 6 months after BoG and Vegeta was there even longer. They did specialized training from Whis.. of couse they would get far stronger. They are not using Super Saiyan God's power outside of Super Saiyan God anymore( they were using it in SS for awhile before they achieved SSGSS) hence why they can actually transform into Super Saiyan God again now.

and if you checked the panels from before this you would see him one shot Frieza and Cell, he isn't in that training to play around, he is trying to defeat them. He is confident he only needs SS to beat Kid Buu at that point hence no SS3.

[QuakingStar]

Dude why the hell are you still arguing with me? You're wrong, you're derailing the thread, and you keep making things up. You're irritating the fuck out of me.

[Mad Swami]

Base Goku had trained with Whis for 6 months after BoG and Vegeta was there even longer. They did specialized training from Whis.. of couse they would get far stronger. They are not using Super Saiyan God's power outside of Super Saiyan God anymore( they were using it in SS for awhile before they achieved SSGSS) hence why they can actually transform into Super Saiyan God again now.

and if you checked the panels from before this you would see him one shot Frieza and Cell, he isn't in that training to play around, he is trying to defeat them. He is confident he only needs SS to beat Kid Buu at that point hence no SS3.

Goku could always go SSG it isn't his base replaced the form, it's his body reacted immense god ki from the form absorbing it into his base and translated the god ki into normal ki. Equal power but no god ki. Nothing points to the contrary

And to the Kid Buu point I still think it's hard to fully to confirm. I think if an enemy is weak enough Goku doesn't bother much, but Kid Buu someone a lot stronger means more

[Mad Swami]

Dude why the hell are you still arguing with me? You're wrong, you're derailing the thread, and you keep making things up. You're irritating the fuck out of me.

Didn't make up anything, said one false thing which I acknowledged and apologized for
Stated facts to contest your fallacious conjecture that uses your head cannon as proof and the statement "I know more" as a deflection. I merely started by adding my two sense and you took it to a rather rude direction, not to sound like that guy but really you are not able to communicate with others or listen to their thoughts you come off as someone waiting for their turn to yell

[QuakingStar]

Listen, Goku absorbed God into his SS form therefor affecting his base form too. He kept that power upgrade until through Whis special training he awakened the God-like Saiyan state and SSGSS.. he then re-acquires his normal base form, his normal SS forms, and the Super Saiyan God form. His normal base form is now at least twice as strong as Super Buu as Copy Vegeta who was Goku's equal one shotted SS3 Gotenks who was Super Buu's equal and accoring to Toriyama and the Daizenshuu if an enemy cannot damage you, or you can one shot them then you are twice as strong as the enemy. So Goku and Vegeta's normal base forms are each twice as stronger as Super Buu was after the RoF Saga. That is a product of Whis training which they did for a long time.

You are wrong and normally I wouldn't get so irritated but when somebody refuses to read and understand then it irritates me. You are the causation of my responses to you. Sit and think about that.

[Koitsukai]

Retcons show Base Gogeta(no god ki usage as plain as day) is above God Vegeta and God Goku(obviously using God Ki) showing the power gain going from base form to base form fusion(they fused in base form) is that difference. They show base Kefla is above God Goku clearly. base to Super Saiyan God is weaker than the power that base form to base form fusion brings. Its super simple. You can say what you want but it doesn't change the facts. BTW Toriyama wrote Broly the movie. He chose base form fusion being stronger than God retconning the power it had BoG making my point stand.
So again

SS4 and SSGSS are on the same level and are treated as such in Heroes anime and Heroes manga and going by the fusion comparisons, with SSGod being the lesser between all 3. If you don't like that that's not my problem, it's yours for not liking the facts.

That is not a retcon. That is the natural progression of their power. It contradicts nothing from BoG, their bases are so strong now that they can merge into a guy with a base that matches their strongest form which happens to be SSB. How strong Gogeta is by the end of Super in no way alters what happened in BoG.

The potara boost is not a set multiplier that works equally for everybody. Kefla surpasses God because she is Caulifla + Kale who is a wild card that wasn't that far from SSG herself and even messed with SSB earlier, so the base of that fusion surpassing a tired God isn't far-fetched. God Goku being base Kefla level doesn't mean he is base saiyan fusion level, it only means he is base Kefla level. And Heroes is a videogame, that would be like me quoting Raging Blast to make a point.

I don't think I can make this any clearer, BoG is an official product directly from Toriyama, you can choose to overlook it because it doesn't fit your headcanon, I will still consider it, of course, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.