Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[funrush]

It's not creatively bankrupt, BoG was totally fresh for the franchise. However the rest of Super likes to redo old villains/ideas or tackle ideas fans have been asking for (eg. Evil Goku). Even this new Moro arc isn't totally new, since Moro as a villain is pretty much King Piccolo meets Cell/Buu.

However there's plenty of new ideas scattered in those arcs. The whole idea of Goku and Vegeta getting new transformations based on their fighting styles for example. Zeno and the organization of Angels. Plenty of new stuff for them to build off of for future arcs.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Are we really going to masturbate to the idea that Trunks using the hopes of his universe to strike down Gokuu Black once and for all is bad because it's not a new idea, as opposed to simply being incredibly satisfying? Because I feel like we're missing the forest for the trees here.

If there's one character that absolutely deserved that moment, it was Trunks. A civilization that had to live through a decade long nightmare finally rising to the challenge and rebuking a new terrorizer in a moment of global catharsis? Fuck. Call me a sap but I'm 100% down.

[Dbzfan94]

The whole idea of Goku and Vegeta getting new transformations based on their fighting styles for example.

But there's the fact that Bluer and MUI are basically just palette swaps with shiny pupils. Not very creative.

[funrush]

Design-wise, sure. But function-wise and story-wise, it's new ground for the series. Instead of Goku and Vegeta racing for the same transformations, Goku's are gonna branch off into ones that focus on natural non-thinking "instinctive" movements, and Vegeta's will focus on being mentally active. The whole thing is foreshadowed in RoF when Whis tells them that Goku thinks too little and Vegeta thinks too much, those perceived weaknesses will become their strengths with these new transformations assuming Toriyama keeps with it.

Plus it's a great character moment for Vegeta, that instead of tailing Goku like he always does, he learns he can seek out strength in his own, new way.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

It's a great character moment for both. Vegeta finally steps out of Goku's shadow and Goku finally starts being an individual again instead of the Saiyan Wunderkind he's been since SSJ was introduced. His power now comes from his tenacity and his commitment to martial arts.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't see how bringing back old villains proves that DBS is creatively bankrupt. Because very clearly they are developing those old villains a lot, it's not a literal copy paste. Freeza received a new form in the RoF arc and a lot of character development in the ToP arc. He was very interesting as a wild card in the U7's team and was pretty much the most captivating thing of the ToP arc for me (especially when he suddenly disappeared from the arena and people thought he would betray U7). Broly is basically a new character with a whole new backstory. Goku Black is a lot more unique than those Evil Goku fanfics. He's not some alternate timeline's Goku who never hit his head like many people thought, but a rogue Kai who stole his body out of jealousy and pride. That's a lot more creative than those fanfics came up with.

If Super has shown anything, is that if they bring back a previous villain they will work on them a lot. Because both Freeza and Broly have changed a lot since Z.

[ABED]

It's not the exact same thing, but it's similar enough to bore some people just like the formula I was talking about bored some and the use of tournaments (even though they're different) is enough to bother some. DB has been around for so long and tread so much ground there aren't really any big moves left. Where it has the chance to shine is the small things.

I agree with those who like the Spirit Sword moment. It may not work from a logical standpoint but from a thematic and emotional angle, it works well. Stories don't have to work on a pure logic level.

[Grimlock]

If the arc ended there, I would've been far more forgiving. But what came after destroyed any last sembiance of quality.

The arc most definitely ends right there. Whatever came after it (that is not Trunks becoming a Time Patroller) is nothing but a comedic unprofessional bullshit that devalues anything seen and established throughout the whole saga.

[ABED]

If the arc ended there, I would've been far more forgiving. But what came after destroyed any last sembiance of quality.

The arc most definitely ends right there. Whatever came after it (that is not Trunks becoming a Time Patroller) is nothing but a comedic unprofessional bullshit that devalues anything seen and established throughout the whole saga.

What comedic unprofessional BS?

[Thunderbird]

Given the quality of your arguments, I'm not surprised you misquote me. I take it back, it's more of a whodunnit than thriller, but these genres share tropes.

If you have to take it back then it means you were wrong exactly as I said in the first place lol.

One Piece belongs to the same genre as Dragon Ball or Naruto or Bleach. "But Pirates" is irrelevant. They're action, adventure, fantasy series that involve a lot of fighting.

One Piece and other series now how to use it's characters in battle instead of shoehorning them into endless repetitive Tournaments.

[Thunderbird]

[The only thing they have in common is they’re aimed at young boys in elementary school and I guess Luffy is kind of a Goku rip off (dumb kid that eats a lot which made sense for Goku but not when every shonen manga author started doing it for their main character)

Complete nonsense. They're both adventure, action, fantasy, comedic series, with a huge emphasis on super powered fighting and made for the same audiences.

[ABED]

Given the quality of your arguments, I'm not surprised you misquote me. I take it back, it's more of a whodunnit than thriller, but these genres share tropes.

If you have to take it back then it means you were wrong exactly as I said in the first place lol.

One Piece belongs to the same genre as Dragon Ball or Naruto or Bleach. "But Pirates" is irrelevant. They're action, adventure, fantasy series that involve a lot of fighting.

One Piece and other series now how to use it's characters in battle instead of shoehorning them into endless repetitive Tournaments.

It's not an irrelevant detail. And you clearly don't understand genre as they aren't some fixed thing. They're fluid and there are genres, and subgenres, and films and TV shows can belong to multiple genres. Keep going and showing us how ignorant you are. And how are pirates not relevant? In DB, the point is the martial arts. That's a huge difference.

There are lots of shows with action but I wouldn't necessarily consider them in the same genre. For instance, DB and Super Sentai have lots of martial arts but I wouldn't consider them to fundamentally be in the same genre as Super Sentai is a superhero show, whereas DB is not.

I can admit if I'm wrong, but it's not for the reasons you state.

[Thunderbird]

Yes, you did

No, you're quote of what I said is not me saying that I only cared about the ground it covered.

Okay then. Z was not creative either. That's nice to know. I guess Dragon Ball didn't become "creatively bankrupt" during Super then.

Bringing Z down again. Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas. They didn't randomly bring back King Piccolo, Raditz, Frieza or Cell.

Where the latest two movies have done that in a row.

Also, they introduced a ton of popular new protagonists and antagonists. Beerus, Whis, Zamasu, Goku Black, Jiren, Broly (who is basically an entirely different character from the original), Hit, Kefla, etc

And once again you're trying to pull in Beerus and Whis even though I told you they weren't invented for Super. You already acknowledged this once so why you've made the same mistake again I don't know.

Zamasu is not popular, in fact most comments I've seen on him off this site usually refer to how terrible is. Likewise Jiren even here is not well liked because he's so shallow. Broly's popularity mainly comes from his long established popularity.

Which really only leaves you with Goku Black, Hit and Kefla and even then a lot of people do not like Caulifla and Kale either.

Then time travel was also done differently

It doesn't matter that it was done differently. It was done yet again, this isn't like using a technique differently. This was taking a main core plot point and using it a second time as opposed to creating something new.

Oh, but it's not semantics your argument about the Saiyans Spirit Bomb being different from the Buu Spirit Bomb because of the scope of the technique?

No.

Saying that Fused Zamasu and Super Buu are identical

I didn't say that though.

No, but it means that Z was not creative either. Which means that Dragon Ball was creatively bankrupt back then too.

Z had uncreative ideas that were balanced out with new and creative ideas. Super had uncreative ideas with no new ideas of any worth in the 5 years that it's existed.

[Thunderbird]

[quoteFor instance, DB and Super Sentai have lots of martial arts but I wouldn't consider them to fundamentally be in the same genre as Super Sentai is a superhero show, whereas DB is not.

And neither is One Piece. Whether it's Pirates, Ninjas, Wizards or Soul Reapers is irrelevant. They all have a heavy emphasis on fighting and follow a damn near similar formula.

Tournaments are lazy storytelling especially when done more than once. Dragon Ball has had to fall back on that over half a dozen times.

When Toriyama can't be bothered to think up a creative story, which he's been utterly incapable of doing ever since he came back in 2013, then having a Tournament is a cheap copout route to go.

When in doubt go with a Tournament.

[ABED]

Wow, you sure proved me wrong that Pirates aren't relevant. Why should I give your argument an credence when you can't support it well, if at all? You just love telling people no, but can't seem to back it up with a cogent point. You post a wikipedia entry and even then you can't even do that right. When in doubt, just laugh condescendingly at people. Look at your argument about ideas vs. execution. You had some salient points, but then you take success after the fact of what is or isn't a good idea, and then had the audacity to ignorantly claim no one here thought of canon Broly.

Why are tournaments lazy? I can understand why some don't like when they are done too often, but it's a martial arts series. They go together like peas and carrots.

I know this is weird coming from me, but this is a safe space to debate and disagree, and even ask dumb questions because at least ignorance can remedied with facts and education. You can disagree as vehemently as you want, but please stop being rude.

I'm open to agreeing with you that DB hasn't had a whole lot of big new ideas in years with the exception of Whis and Beerus.

Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas.

Now I don't know where you stand on this because since it made over 100 Million dollars, it was a great idea. It's not original, but according to you, it was a great idea.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes, you did

No, you're quote of what I said is not me saying that I only cared about the ground it covered.

But that's what you said, especially how after that you mentioned that the main villain being very different means nothing when the core plot point is similar.

Bringing Z down again.

Oh, it's only fair to bring Super down?

Z had original movie villains

Not really, when several of those movies were about bringing back popular movie villains from the past. They made 3 movies about Broly for a reason, and no it wasn't because Broly is a complex villain whose story needed to be fleshed out in 3 movies.

none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas

Lack of ideas? Not really, when they developed Freeza a lot and completely overhauled Broly.

And once again you're trying to pull in Beerus and Whis even though I told you they weren't invented for Super.

You got the wrong person.

Also, funny how that works, Beerus and Whis don't count as Super characters because they were introduced in the movie, but RoF counts as Super content?

Zamasu is not popular, in fact most comments I've seen on him off this site usually refer to how terrible is. Likewise Jiren even here is not well liked because he's so shallow. Broly's popularity mainly comes from his long established popularity.

Aside from the fact that I rarely see anyone complain about Zamasu around here, even if that were the case (let's give you the benefit of the doubt), you realize that this forum is like 1% of the Dragon Ball community? Of which a lot of people don't hate Zamasu at all.

And besides, even if Zamasu were not popular, what does that prove? Just because a character is not popular does mean he's not creative. There are plenty of unique villains in fiction who are sadly rather underrated.

It doesn't matter that it was done differently. It was done yet again, this isn't like using a technique differently.

But it is using a technique differently, since they time travelled through time rings.

Also, funny, because in the Buu arc the Genkidama was used IN THE SAME WAY it was used in previous arcs, it's just that the scope was bigger, but somehow that's different.

No.

Can't argue with that.

I didn't say that though.

You said they were the general idea, and that's not true at all. Just because they both merge with someone else one way or another doesn't make them similar. Following that logic, the Genkidama and Freeza's death beams are also similar techniques because they're meant to damage their opponents.

Z had uncreative ideas that were balanced out with new and creative ideas. Super had uncreative ideas with no new ideas of any worth in the 5 years that it's existed.

Which is false, since the aforementioned Future Trunks arc introduced a lot of new elements, for better or worse, and the series in general introduced 11 new universes with their own characters, special techniques, and personality.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

As much as I liked Z's movie villains, they weren't exactly original. Cooler is a more overtly masculine Freeza. Wheelo recreates the fight against Vegeta almost exactly. Android 13 is a bastardized Cell and his super form is an even more boring Broly. Speaking of which, Broly was used in 3 different movies each with less build up than the previous (although shoutout to Krillin in Piccolo's outfit). Bojack is Tullece if Tullece hadn't had any interesting subtext. And Slug is King Piccolo right down to the demon gimmick.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas.

Broly wasn't brought back due to a lack of ideas. Broly was brought back because he was popular. The same could maybe be argued for Frieza.

And every other Z movie villain besides Broly, was basically some copy of a pre-existing canon villain.

[Thunderbird]

But that's what you said

It wasn't, but we'll move on from that seeing as you feel the need to break every word of my post down into separate points.

Bringing Z down again.

Oh, it's only fair to bring Super down?

Not really, when several of those movies were about bringing back popular movie villains from the past.

In that case, they were still bringing back villains that had been created originally for the movies. Even though they brought Cooler and Broly back they were still original characters.

The last two movies couldn't so much as bother to even make an original villain. It's one thing for the old movies because they were short half baked moves, two a year made by Toei.

These new movies are big movies made by Toriyama and he could not even think up a new villain. Even Beerus wasn't his idea.

Also, funny how that works, Beerus and Whis don't count as Super characters because they were introduced in the movie, but RoF counts as Super content?

No Resurrection F isn't part of Super but it is still new Dragon Ball.

And besides, even if Zamasu were not popular, what does that prove? Just because a character is not popular does mean he's not creative.

Well he isn't that popular, there's no if about it. Goku Black is somewhat but Zamasu. He's also not that creative, not his design, not his wish for immortality and not his motives.

He wasn't bad, he's better than Hit and Jiren but not great.

Also, funny, because in the Buu arc the Genkidama was used IN THE SAME WAY it was used in previous arcs, it's just that the scope was bigger, but somehow that's different.

No it wasn't, the old Spirit Bombs were mostly solitary efforts that resulted in failure. The one against Buu may have been another Spirit Bomb but the way it was formed and executed made it radically different entirely from the one in the Saiyan arc.

Which is false, since the aforementioned Future Trunks arc introduced a lot of new elements, for better or worse, and the series in general introduced 11 new universes with their own characters, special techniques, and personality.

What were these new elements in the Trunks arc? The other thing isn't that creative. It's just a further expansion as before. First there were other planets then realms and now universes. Having new characters and techniques etc just goes with the territory.

Since 2013, Toriyama has not come up with one original story. Even amongst his character designs they're lousy as hell. Beerus and Whis were good but otherwise we've had red Goku, blue Goku, silver Goku, pink Goku with a black gi, Beerus but he's fat, Whis but he's female, a couple badly designed saiyans, a different coloured Frieza, Beerus but he's a rabbit, a completely generic grey alien, Broly but he's wearing an ear etc.

It's had a real bad showing, Hit was fine, Toppo was fine, maybe one or two others.

Otherwise he ain't got it no more. I bet even that Broly movie only got made because some producer told him Broly was popular so he figured he'd just go with that.

[Thunderbird]

And every other Z movie villain besides Broly, was basically some copy of a pre-existing canon villain.

Not all of them but somewhat. But at least they bothered to make new characters, even if it was some movie version of a canon villain, it was still a new character anyway. They at least bothered to do that much.

And as I said above, these were half baked movies that they churned out, like a 50 minute feature where they made two a year and weren't even canon.

These last few movies are event movies now, a lot of time and money goes into them and Toriyama even writes them as part of the canon and he can't even come up with an original main antagonist.

He designed Beerus but that wasn't a character came up with.

He brought back Frieza. Gave him a new form which is laughably uncreative when compared to Coolers extra form that he got.

He brought back Broly, mainly just changed his clothes.

And to oppose them they came up with a red haired Goku, again Super Saiyan God wasn't his idea, a blue haired Goku and Vegeta.... and then they had to dredge up another old popular character with Gogeta.

Toriyama made a good series in the past and he's made a lot of great designs, even a few decent ones now but mainly....he's a hack now who can do nothing but cash in on his old ideas, bring back Frieza, Trunks, Android 17, Broly, Gogeta etc. That's all he can do now. Bring back old characters and design colour palette swaps.