SSG or SSJ4

[Matches Malone]

I think they should have left it at SSGod, and later have something like Goku "Unleashed SSGods true full power" in the ToP instead of introducing the silver form.

I completely agree. If not that, at the very least they should've kept SsjG as the main form longer than they did. Blue's introduction was way too rushed. Personally, the only form I'd have alongside SsjG would be UI Omen.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I think they should have left it at SSGod, and later have something like Goku "Unleashed SSGods true full power" in the ToP instead of introducing the silver form.

I completely agree. If not that, at the very least they should've kept SsjG as the main form longer than they did. Blue's introduction was way too rushed. Personally, the only form I'd have alongside SsjG would be UI Omen.

Problem was back then modern DB was just come as you go, there was less of a plan, they definitely learned with DBS though Goku didn't get a new form until the last arc of DBS and even then it wasn't a permanent form ie it didn't appear in the movie.

It's now been 5 years since SSGSS debut, not counting UI it is still somehow Goku's most popular Saiyan form I don't f**king get it. Last months SSGSS Goku figure did better than it's usual average domestically and overseas it sold like SSGSS was a new form or something. I am completely over SSGSS now (cba to change this avatar). Any appeal this form had should have gone by now.

[The Undying]

I love SSG a lot but the more refined hair and protruding bangs are a part of how Toriyama draws base Goku’s hair on his more detailed illustrations (just look at Battle of Gods poster).

I'd say SSG's hair was at least intended to be somewhat more refined than his base form. In Toriyama's more recent design sheet for Goku Black, for example, the looser strands are visible. His post-2010 manga drawings (Jaco, Minus) have the strands as well.

That's what I like about Toriyama's Saiyan transformations. With the exception of Super Saiyan 3, aesthetic differences from predecessor forms are mainly small, subtle and elegant.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I love SSG a lot but the more refined hair and protruding bangs are a part of how Toriyama draws base Goku’s hair on his more detailed illustrations (just look at Battle of Gods poster).

I'd say SSG's hair was at least intended to be somewhat more refined than his base form. In Toriyama's more recent design sheet for Goku Black, for example, the looser strands are visible. His post-2010 manga drawings (Jaco, Minus) have the strands as well.

That's what I like about Toriyama's Saiyan transformations. With the exception of Super Saiyan 3, aesthetic differences from predecessor forms are mainly small, subtle and elegant.

Plus Toriyama didn't correct Shintani's design.

As for SS3, it is very bizarre and so un DB or Toriyama. That is why I believe that SS3 was only intended for that one moment, then for some reason he decided to use it for Gotenks (clearly wasn't planned with the poor way it was written in) and then obv Goku came back but even then he clearly didn't want it to be the thing that killed Buu and now it has been benched since 2013 practically. I also do find it pretty telling that in the West SS3 is still one of the most popular forms but domestically the least.

[Matches Malone]

As for SS3, it is very bizarre and so un DB or Toriyama. That is why I believe that SS3 was only intended for that one moment, then for some reason he decided to use it for Gotenks (clearly wasn't planned with the poor way it was written in) and then by Goku came back but even then he clearly didn't want it to be the thing that killed Buu.

It has been benched since 2013 practically. I also do find it pretty telling that in the West SS3 is still one of the most popular forms but domestically the least.

Here's the thing about Ssj3, I think it was intended from the start to be used to subvert expectations. The main Ssj forms (1&2) were introduced during the arc's climax, while this was introduced during the first act's climax. Later on, everyone probably just assumed that it would be used to finish off Kid Buu because it was the strongest form, and like the above, fans' expectations were subverted again when Goku dropped out of it. In terms of Gotenks, he was being build up as the one to take down Buu, so Toriyama probably assumed that if he just had Ssj1 or 2, fans would see right through his plans. By giving him Ssj3, Gotenks was truly presented as the one who could potentially take down Buu, and wasn't just being used to buy time for someone else.

I think the reason Ssj3 isn't used much is due to the trouble it takes to draw its hair compared to other forms.

[The Undying]

Matches Malone beat me to it. SS3, just like the "grade" variants, were intended to be red herrings. Like almost any busy or overly bulky form Toriyama makes, they were specifically designed to contrast with more effective alternatives in their introductory story arcs.

3 also enhanced a lot of the Boo arc's themes, demonstrating that Goku actually didn't have all the answers or underlining Gotenks' arrogance, with both users failing to get the job done and emphasizing why it's important not to shoulder everything alone. I think it's very DB under that specific context.

[Aim]

Super Saiyan God for me personally.

[Scientist Fu]

I love SSG hair color and aura but I prefer SS4 design. ~

[KorgDTR2000]

Matches Malone beat me to it. SS3, just like the "grade" variants, were intended to be red herrings. Like almost any busy or overly bulky form Toriyama makes, they were specifically designed to contrast with more effective alternatives in their introductory story arcs.

3 also enhanced a lot of the Boo arc's themes, demonstrating that Goku actually didn't have all the answers or underlining Gotenks' arrogance, with both users failing to get the job done and emphasizing why it's important not to shoulder everything alone. I think it's very DB under that specific context.

I wonder if going for this effect is why Toriyama ended up going for the crazier concept. I've always preferred one of his unused concepts, with shorter hair, to what he eventually went with:



Compared to the used design, it's change from SSJ2 feels equal to the change from SSJ1 with the exception of the ape brow.

It's interesting to look at these end game power ups and see how they stack up, visually. SSJ3 is SSJ on steroids, with a more savage look that hints at the Oozaru transformation. Gohan's awakened power is just his base form with the slightest tweaks, definitely the most subtle point. And SSJ4 kind of sits in the middle, being derived aesthetically from base form but taking cues from SSJ3 in terms of ape influence and cranking that up (although oddly it does not keep the ape brow).

I also think it's not an accident that the movies, which always skewed away from Toriyama's less-is-more subversive approach, utilized SSJ3 to far greater effect than the actual series did. I think a lot of love for SSJ3 comes from how gorgeously it was animated in Movies 12 and 13, and the pure unadulterated nonsensical badassery of the Dragon Fist.

[Matches Malone]

I think a lot of love for SSJ3 comes from how gorgeously it was animated in Movies 12 and 13, and the pure unadulterated nonsensical badassery of the Dragon Fist.

Those movies definitely solidified its place as a fan favorite. Whatever shortcomings the form had in the Buu arc was more than made up for in those 2 movies, especially in 13 with the dragon fist. The Buu arc wasn't the only time it was useless, Toriyama did that again in BOG, twice. The first by having a powered up Ssj2 Vegeta do better against Beerus than a Ssj3 Goku. Toriyama could've easily given Vegeta Ssj3 but instead kept him as 2 and just raised his power. The second by having Goku later fight Beerus in his weakest Ssj form instead of his stronger Ssj3.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

As for SS3, it is very bizarre and so un DB or Toriyama. That is why I believe that SS3 was only intended for that one moment, then for some reason he decided to use it for Gotenks (clearly wasn't planned with the poor way it was written in) and then by Goku came back but even then he clearly didn't want it to be the thing that killed Buu.

It has been benched since 2013 practically. I also do find it pretty telling that in the West SS3 is still one of the most popular forms but domestically the least.

Here's the thing about Ssj3, I think it was intended from the start to be used to subvert expectations. The main Ssj forms (1&2) were introduced during the arc's climax, while this was introduced during the first act's climax. Later on, everyone probably just assumed that it would be used to finish off Kid Buu because it was the strongest form, and like the above, fans' expectations were subverted again when Goku dropped out of it. In terms of Gotenks, he was being build up as the one to take down Buu, so Toriyama probably assumed that if he just had Ssj1 or 2, fans would see right through his plans. By giving him Ssj3, Gotenks was truly presented as the one who could potentially take down Buu, and wasn't just being used to buy time for someone else.

I think the reason Ssj3 isn't used much is due to the trouble it takes to draw its hair compared to other forms.

Well I mean I am sure that is one of the reasons but if Toriyama wanted to use SS3 more it would've been used far more frequently & especially the Broly movie the production time was ridiculous and they still didn't bother do anything with SS3.

I think it's a mix of Toriyama not wanting to do anything with it, Toei happy to follow through & no pressure from the domestic marketing department because SS3 just does not do well at all.

Personally I couldn't be happier with the way SS3 has gone such a shite butt ugly transformation.

[Matches Malone]

If Toriyama wanted to use SS3 more it would've been used far more frequently & especially the Broly movie the production time was ridiculous and they still didn't bother do anything with SS3.

This is true. If the form was only intended to show how useless such a method was, It makes sense why Toriyama has moved on from it, as he never intended for it to be more than a lesson for Goku and even Vegeta to learn from.

[Psajdak]

I had no idea that those are supposed to be ape brows on SS3.

Always thought it was design choice to make face look more striking, and powerful.

[QuakingStar]

Super Saiyan 3 has too much of a energy drain for prolonged battle, so it not being used often is understandable. Someone like Cumber has mastered SS3 and doesn't have to worry about the drain though... he also has his tail which in GT is shown to counter the energy drain effect of SS3.

[Hulk10]

Super Saiyan 3 has too much of a energy drain for prolonged battle, so it not being used often is understandable. Someone like Cumber has mastered SS3 and doesn't have to worry about the drain though... he also has his tail which in GT is shown to counter the energy drain effect of SS3.

Not completely counter it. Goku was able to reach that form in his child body only after getting his tail back.

[QuakingStar]

He reached it before he got his tail back, but the drain was too much and he lost the form fast. He got his tail back and was then able to maintain the form to fight baby until baby knocked him out of the form. So a Saiyan Tail is required to use SS3 properly going from that and from Cunbers usages.

[Hulk10]

He reached it before he got his tail back, but the drain was too much and he lost the form fast. He got his tail back and was then able to maintain the form to fight baby until baby knocked him out of the form. So a Saiyan Tail is required to use SS3 properly going from that and from Cunbers usages.

Hmm I thought the tail just game him the extra boost he needed to use the form in his child body.

[The Undying]

Someone like Cumber has mastered SS3 and doesn't have to worry about the drain though... he also has his tail which in GT is shown to counter the energy drain effect of SS3.

I don't think the tail is a necessary requirement to counter the energy drain; just mastering and growing accustomed to the form should be sufficient. In the DBS manga, at least, Goku doesn't seem to have any problem using it by Super's time period.

[QuakingStar]

He doesn't use it for serious drawn out fights, in fact he only uses it for quick spars and to show it off. SS, SS2 God, and Blue are what he uses for real fights and serious spars.

[Hulk10]

He also uses SSJ4 for serious fights as well.