Things that grind your gears

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XanatosVanBadass
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:43 pm

Really, that they may start listening more to US fans given the unprecedented success of Broly.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:43 pm

Scientist Fu wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:39 pm
And it's not only about him, some other characters also suffer from the same kinds of problems but since they are not as popular as Broly we don't see the hate that much ( like Ribrianne and Kale etc).
Well anime Kale was annoying crybaby combined with Broly with boobs and lipstick, so i don't blame anyone. She's complete garbage imo.
Her manga version is completely different story, she was fine.

But Ribrianne was one of the very few DBS characters i liked and i don't understand hate she gets.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:19 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:43 pm
Really, that they may start listening more to US fans given the unprecedented success of Broly.
They already have been, but Broly is just going to result in more of that. Fan service in general is something I dislike, as I believe that an author's vision shouldn't be influenced by fans, but listening to US fans who have a very wrong image about DB is even worse. Why on earth (apart from $$$) would you listen to fans who either didn't watch the original DB, or outright don't even acknowledge it ? And that's only one reason why they shouldn't be listened to.

When it was announced that the dragon room was established in part to understand what fans want, the first thing I asked myself was why not put that effort into just making original content ? Whatever it is they could come up with would most likely be better than whatever some "fan" on the internet wants, especially an American one. To be clear, I'm not talking about every American fan, as there are plenty who are creative and know the franchise in and out, but the majority are creatively bankrupt, and only want the same thing they already have in a new package.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Aim » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:58 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 11:58 am
Aim wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:34 am
Lord Beerus wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:09 pm
- Viz's half arsed treatment of the manga.
Funnily, if I'm not mistaken, Kanzenshuu supports Viz's releases for some reason.

I think they support Viz because it’s the official legal release of the manga
It's sad to think they'd support a company that doesn't bother to do things right, which is disappointing considering Viz is a sister company of Shueisha. Sad to know that there will never be another company that could translate Dragon Ball properly. From all the censoring to the 3 in one books, like, I want to have each volume like the japanese and enjoy the cover art. Don't get me started on the Daizenshuu.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Planetnamek » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:56 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:19 pm
XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:43 pm
Really, that they may start listening more to US fans given the unprecedented success of Broly.
They already have been, but Broly is just going to result in more of that. Fan service in general is something I dislike, as I believe that an author's vision shouldn't be influenced by fans, but listening to US fans who have a very wrong image about DB is even worse. Why on earth (apart from $$$) would you listen to fans who either didn't watch the original DB, or outright don't even acknowledge it ? And that's only one reason why they shouldn't be listened to.

When it was announced that the dragon room was established in part to understand what fans want, the first thing I asked myself was why not put that effort into just making original content ? Whatever it is they could come up with would most likely be better than whatever some "fan" on the internet wants, especially an American one. To be clear, I'm not talking about every American fan, as there are plenty who are creative and know the franchise in and out, but the majority are creatively bankrupt, and only want the same thing they already have in a new package.
I'd argue you shouldn't exclusively listen to fans in general, not just U.S. ones.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zeon_Grunt » Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:55 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:48 pm
I haven’t seen any Broly fans say that in years though
I still see it almost every time Broly or DBZ is brought up in a Vs Thead. Not so much on this forum, but in other places fans gather to discuss DBZ and cross-franchise fights.

That's not even mentioning the articles online that still perpetuate that dub line's myth as recently as last year.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Scientist Fu » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:13 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 7:43 pm
Scientist Fu wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:39 pm
And it's not only about him, some other characters also suffer from the same kinds of problems but since they are not as popular as Broly we don't see the hate that much ( like Ribrianne and Kale etc).
Well anime Kale was annoying crybaby combined with Broly with boobs and lipstick, so i don't blame anyone. She's complete garbage imo.
Her manga version is completely different story, she was fine.

But Ribrianne was one of the very few DBS characters i liked and i don't understand hate she gets.
People are free to like or dislike a character but I'm against people who despise fictional characters to a considerable degree and on top of that they also hate, insult and make fun of the fans who love that character ( it can also go the other way around, the fans who respond in a disrespectful and hateful manner ). I just like when people share their opinions and reply in a respectful manner.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:28 am

Here are a few things that have grinded my gears to a complete hault:

* The green tint on the US release of Broly and the fact that neither Funimation nor Toei bothered to do anything because they are that Kami damned lazy and apathetic.
* The green tint in Boo Kai. It is the sole reason I cannot watch it.
* The inconsistency with Kai and the aspect ratios between the two.
* The improperly added Kikuchi score in Kai, and the Sumitomo replacement in Boo Kai (should have never made a replacement for either).
* The American release of the manga having censorship that has never been undone.
* Chris Sabat being the ADR Director for the series and returning to the old ways of Funimation by changing dialogue, adding jokes, adding memes, etc. whenever that dumb fuck sees fit.
* The cancelled level sets. I would pay top dollar for each even if there were 18 of them.
* People (like my friend) who think Kikuchi is "PERRRRFECT" for Dragon Ball, but say, and I quote, "I think that Faulconer is closer to what Toriyama originally envisioned for Dragon Ball Z."
* People who say the original Japanese version sucks not just because of Kikuchi, but because of "Granny Goku" and that Goku sounds like a grandma (he doesn't).
* The fact that there is no HD version of Dragon Ball.
* The fact that Dragon Ball GT exists.
* The half-assed production values Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are known for. Meanwhile, GT had excellent animation and much better art detail in backgrounds than the preceding series ever did (even the OP alone does, look at it. It's pretty).
* The fact that Toei never bothered to properly preserve anything for either DB or DBZ. Film reels have horrible color damage to them as they were not preserved properly, and the original audio was trashed.
* The fact that Toei won't accept broadcast audio from the fans and add it to a release.

I'm not happy. :x

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:53 pm

SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:28 am
Chris Sabat being the ADR Director for the series and returning to the old ways of Funimation by changing dialogue, adding jokes, adding memes, etc. whenever that dumb fuck sees fit.
I don't know why out of all their shows, DB is the one they constantly mess up. Nearly every other show they own is released in its proper image (aspect ratio,grain,etc.) and has an accurate dub, yet DB is messed up in nearly every way. I think Kai is the only product with the DB name that they treated as any of their other shows, as in presenting it as it was intended.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by SpiritBombTriumphant » Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:12 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:53 pm
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:28 am
Chris Sabat being the ADR Director for the series and returning to the old ways of Funimation by changing dialogue, adding jokes, adding memes, etc. whenever that dumb fuck sees fit.
I don't know why out of all their shows, DB is the one they constantly mess up. Nearly every other show they own is released in its proper image (aspect ratio,grain,etc.) and has an accurate dub, yet DB is messed up in nearly every way. I think Kai is the only product with the DB name that they treated as any of their other shows, as in presenting it as it was intended.
For what you are speaking of in terms of "mess up," it is simple: DBZ is their cash cow. They can release it over and over and over again, and it will sell. All Funimation has to do is make it slightly better than the previous release and it sells. The remastering process they do is completely automated--a computer sits there and does a shit job at removing grain, brightens the image too much, etc. It's almost free for them to have the remastering automated unlike the manual frame-by-frame remastering process used for the level sets. So it's easy to see why they do it. Just look at DB and DB GT. They got normal releases without any hardcore DNR or cropping. Why? Because they don't sell nearly as well as DBZ does. Plain and simple. The plan is to just find a way to re-release it every few years. Hell, there might even be a 4K version coming soon since it'd be another cash grab for them at this point.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 am

"Dragon Ball Super" is a really stupid title for a show.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Dbzfan94 » Fri May 15, 2020 10:51 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 am
"Dragon Ball Super" is a really stupid title for a show.
Only made worse by people who called it "Dragon Ball Z Super"

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am

Dbzfan94 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:51 am
Robo4900 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:49 am
"Dragon Ball Super" is a really stupid title for a show.
Only made worse by people who called it "Dragon Ball Z Super"
You just spoke to my soul.

YES.

Anyone who says "DBZ Super" or refers to the whole franchise as "The Dragon Ball Z franchise" needs to either RTFM* or WTFOS** or I will HTFO***.

*TL note: RTFM = Read the fucking manga
**TL note: WTFOS = Watch the fucking original series
***TL note: HTFO = Hulk the fuck out

Another thing that grinds my gears is excessive TL notes that somehow are a thing even in official subtitles.
"The Tenkaichi Budoukai* is a tournament. *[TL NOTE: Tenkaichi Budoukai = "Greatest under heaven tournament"]" "Ooh! I wanna enter!" "You have to have patience in order to be Tenkaichi."
... Especially when some parts of it are still inexplicably left in Japanese with no translation ("The man training Goku is... Kami-sama!") so you have to either google it or already know... The point of subtitles is to tell you what's being said, not tell you what to Google to understand what's being said, or to be told what some Japanese word or phrase means once at the start of the run, and then expected to remember what this random-ass Japanese word means for the rest of the ~500-episode run... :eh:
Feels like I'm reading subtitles written by a petaQ* when I see this pop up.

*TL note: petaQ = fucking taHqeq-ass madman

(FWIW, all the respect in the world to Clyde Mandelin, Steve Simmons, and all the other translators who've done Dragon Ball subtitling, but I'm sorry -- this shit bugs the hell out of me! :lol:)
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri May 15, 2020 12:21 pm

Dont worry Robo. No matter what you do, you will never be as insulting as I was with the infamous Juku school debacle.
AnimeMaakuo wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am
Enjoy unboxing crap :thumbup:. Your continued support for crap will give us more crap for many years to come! :clap:.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zestanor » Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 11:56 am

(FWIW, all the respect in the world to Clyde Mandelin, Steve Simmons, and all the other translators who've done Dragon Ball subtitling, but I'm sorry -- this shit bugs the hell out of me! :lol:)
Eh, I like that the subs leave a little to unpack. If you know Kami-sama just means capital G God, then when you see Kami-sama in the subs, you’re good to go. Leaving it untranslated allows things like Piccolo just calling him Kami to remain. Or Kamiccolo.

I’m also glad Mandelin and Simmons kept the honorific suffixes, and generally kept obvious proper nouns and names untranslated. It would really jarring if someone’s whole line is “Son-san!” but the subs show “Son!” or “Goku!” or “Get over here!” But some translators do this, chalking it up to differences in politeness and the broad range of meanings contained in the vocative case in the Japanese language. That’s great but she clearly said “Tsukino-san” not “wake up Usagi”; I’m not an idiot.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MyVisionity » Fri May 15, 2020 6:56 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm
Eh, I like that the subs leave a little to unpack. If you know Kami-sama just means capital G God, then when you see Kami-sama in the subs, you’re good to go. Leaving it untranslated allows things like Piccolo just calling him Kami to remain. Or Kamiccolo.
Personally I'm willing to lose Piccolo's "Kami" if it means Kami-sama gets translated to God. I think it has the greater significance. It's unfortunate, but these things come at a cost. ("Kamiccolo" could be explained with a note.)

Zestanor wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm
I’m also glad Mandelin and Simmons kept the honorific suffixes, and generally kept obvious proper nouns and names untranslated. It would really jarring if someone’s whole line is “Son-san!” but the subs show “Son!” or “Goku!” or “Get over here!” But some translators do this, chalking it up to differences in politeness and the broad range of meanings contained in the vocative case in the Japanese language. That’s great but she clearly said “Tsukino-san” not “wake up Usagi”; I’m not an idiot.
Sounds like you're referring to Viz subtitles, which I also greatly dislike. Particularly when they write the names in Western order.

The only thing that bothers me about the honorifics is when they are italicized in the subtitles. It always comes off awkwardly in my mind. Italics for Japanese terms in general I understand, but for honorifics is a bit much in my view.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Robo4900 » Fri May 15, 2020 7:45 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm
Eh, I like that the subs leave a little to unpack. If you know Kami-sama just means capital G God, then when you see Kami-sama in the subs, you’re good to go. Leaving it untranslated allows things like Piccolo just calling him Kami to remain. Or Kamiccolo.
But it's not like there's more nuance there, it's just "You don't know what this means, and will have no way of knowing what it means unless you Google it, therefore these subs' role as a way of making you not have to learn Japanese to understand this Japanese dialogue has failed."

And sure, in theory, I could let one thing slide, but in fairness, Kami vs God is a big thing to let slide. It literally removes all meaning behind his name. Like, yeah, a lot of people know what it means, but on a similar note, a Death Note sub may be able to get away with "All according to kekaku" because of the infamous fansub... But it would still be really stupid if a sub actually used that.
(And, in fairness, God vs Kami is a great example of this pet peeve of mine, so letting it go would be letting a very useful conversational tool go, so you'll have to forgive me if I lean a little hard on this particular hill)

Granted, Piccolo calling him Kami rather than Kami-sama or something else is a nuance of Japanese that you could argue is removed by rendering Kami as God, but there are a lot of answers to that. A few to sample:
1. Argaubly, Piccolo's feelings towards God are obvious, and we don't need what I would argue is just trivia relating to something that doesn't translate into English to help that. (I think dub viewers, who never see the honourifics, and are generally treated to an overall very poor rendering of the dialogue, still got the full message regarding Piccolo's feelings on God, so I don't think you lose much by losing the honourifics when you look at it that way)
2. "Kamiccolo" is easily adapted. Piccogod, Goddolo, etc. It's a one-time joke, there's a million different ways to deal with it, and it's probably not worth overthinking much.
3. There's no reason they couldn't just render it as God plus the honourific. "God-sama", "God-san", and for people like Piccolo, just "God"...
4. However, I would argue #3 is actually redundant and silly, because if you know enough about how honourifics work, you can just listen for them in the dialogue... So if you don't know honourifics, you're not presented them, but if you do know honourifics, then you can hear them, and understand their meaning to the best of your ability... So I don't see the problem in the honourifics just not being there.
Zestanor wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm
I’m also glad Mandelin and Simmons kept the honorific suffixes, and generally kept obvious proper nouns and names untranslated. It would really jarring if someone’s whole line is “Son-san!” but the subs show “Son!” or “Goku!” or “Get over here!” But some translators do this, chalking it up to differences in politeness and the broad range of meanings contained in the vocative case in the Japanese language. That’s great but she clearly said “Tsukino-san” not “wake up Usagi”; I’m not an idiot.
Honestly, I have no feelings either way on this, but I do think it's quite telling that Simmons initially wasn't going to keep the honourifics when he did the Kai subs, but he was asked to keep them, to keep consistency with the other sub work on Dragon Ball up to that point.
Plus, for stuff like "Son-san!" becoming "Son!"... I don't see the issue there. "NAN DA TO??!!" becoming "WHAT?" is also a thing, as is ""... English and Japanese are different languages. Whatever. The point of subtitles is to just tell us what the words mean. If you want to learn some of the Japanese behind it, you can just google it in your own time. If you're wondering why the Japanese dialogue has sounds added to the end of character names, that's easily-found info, and anyone who googles it can then listen for it in the dialogue... So... To me, it's kind of a non-issue.

It's not intrusive to include the honourifics, but I don't think you really gain anything by including them either, so honourifics vs no honourifics is a non-issue IMO... :lol:
MyVisionity wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 6:56 pm
Zestanor wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 12:40 pm
Eh, I like that the subs leave a little to unpack. If you know Kami-sama just means capital G God, then when you see Kami-sama in the subs, you’re good to go. Leaving it untranslated allows things like Piccolo just calling him Kami to remain. Or Kamiccolo.
Personally I'm willing to lose Piccolo's "Kami" if it means Kami-sama gets translated to God. I think it has the greater significance. It's unfortunate, but these things come at a cost. ("Kamiccolo" could be explained with a note.)
Ah! Yes, a note is a good way of addressing that particular one. And yeah, I agree. Being able to understand his name is IMO far more important than a few minor nuances (i.e. Piccolo and Garlic Jr don't respect God) that are already evident from the actual dialogue, story, and line delivery.
A somewhat self-indulgent thesis on my current outlook on Dragon Ball fandom, which I feel should be below every post I make from now on:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Zestanor » Fri May 15, 2020 8:41 pm

Robo4900 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:45 pm

3. There's no reason they couldn't just render it as God plus the honourific. "God-sama", "God-san", and for people like Piccolo, just "God"...
Kami-sama is identical in meaning and usage to God in English: the top dog in whatever religion, answers prayers, involved with morality and afterlife etc. Japanese people who aren’t concerned with a Kami-sama still call him Kami-sama, not Kami. So God-sama is redundant, like if Gohan called his dad o-father-san, or if Goku called Roshi gramps-chan.

Edit: I don’t think Piccolo omits Sama because he doesn’t respect God, but because he is literally God’s equal, so it’s not proper for him. Even around other people he doesn’t use it because of the relationship of near identity between the two. It would be like referring to your brother as Mr. so and so around your peers, instead of his first name.
Robo4900 wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:45 pm

Honestly, I have no feelings either way on this, but I do think it's quite telling that Simmons initially wasn't going to keep the honourifics when he did the Kai subs, but he was asked to keep them, to keep consistency with the other sub work on Dragon Ball up to that point.
I hadn’t heard of this but I’m not surprised. The subs were done in the early ‘00s, just barely after the fansub tape era, which loved translator notes and all that. I think the DB subs come from a sweet spot where the translator gives you an accurate and intelligent translation, with the occasional “go look it up, nerd” thrown in, while still being very professional.

Honorific suffixes add something if you know their proper usage. Especially when the rules are broken, it conveys things that really can’t be translated. Back on Viz translations: In Sailor Moon, Zoicite, a grown man, makes a clandestine appearance through a TV to Mamoru and repeatedly calls him, another grown man, “Mamoru-chan.” The subtitles really can’t convey the fact that Zoicite is mocking and intimidating with insincere homosexual innuendo and infantilizing Mamoru in his own home, even though the Japanese language communicates this in a single word. It’s not a super nuanced concept either; it just can’t be expressed in English with text. Those subs don’t use Chan, so they don’t even try.

If the viewer knows what Chan means, then it may as well be left in, especially in lines that are only a word or two long. Otherwise the discrepancy between what’s heard and what’s read can be jarring.

At worst, even if the viewer does not know what they mean, I still think it’s best to leave them in. Going back to the Son example: if Bulma yells “Son-kun” and the subtitle just says Son, then the viewer may wonder why a word is clearly being omitted.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Fri May 15, 2020 10:04 pm

Speaking of Son-kun, I'm guessing -kun is suffix used to signify a friendly manner among peers, whereas -san is a little more formal. What is the signficance of Piccolo not using -kun when calling Goku "Son"? And is there any significance to him continuing to not use a suffix even after they become allies?
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MyVisionity » Fri May 15, 2020 11:19 pm

ABED wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:04 pm
Speaking of Son-kun, I'm guessing -kun is suffix used to signify a friendly manner among peers, whereas -san is a little more formal. What is the signficance of Piccolo not using -kun when calling Goku "Son"? And is there any significance to him continuing to not use a suffix even after they become allies?
Kun is too friendly for someone like Piccolo to ever use. Bulma attempts to call Vegeta "kun" at the end of the Freeza saga and he reacts with disgust.

Piccolo using no honorific for Goku just means that he is familiar enough with him not to use it. Same as the rest of the Z-Senshi just calling him "Goku". Piccolo calling him "Son" instead of "Goku" is likely due to their adversarial past, similarly with Tenshinhan.

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