Super Saiyan Rosé - The Anime's interpretation (Compared to the Manga's)

[Aim]

No one was arguing that the manga was the same as the anime, I specifically stated that Rosé is SSGSS in the manga.

That wasn't a reply to you, I'm just addressing some misconceptions I've seen floating around in this thread. Stuff like "they don't need to go red first to hit blue" and "Rosé has a different base" are plainly refuted by at least one medium, while the other medium is too unclear to support them.

I agree that people shouldn't be conflating Super Saiyan God with god ki. They're not the same - SSG is stated to beget god ki, not the other way around.

The anime guide as I sourced stated it was Goku Black's version of Super Saiyan, if you want to bring dialogue and video games into it, then that supports what the anime treats it as.

Right, but the difference is that the anime doesn't care enough to answer these questions by itself. This may not be anything more convoluted than "Rosé is SS1 in the anime but colored differently because of Black's ki".

I wouldn't think about it too much. Toei clearly doesn't.

Oh okay, I misread then. I just think overall that the evidence is there that Rosé isn't SSGSS in the anime, I don't remember if it was you or not but someone did say that they thought Toei misunderstood Akira Toriyama and saw Super Saiyan Rosé as the same thing as Black's Super Saiyan that is a match for Goku's SSGSS, I personally think that's probably the case, as even then they didn't bother to correct anything and the video games treated Rosé as Super Saiyan.

If there's anything I can agree on is that anime Rosé may not be the exact same as Super Saiyan 1, but instead Goku Black's 'evil' Super Saiyan, or as Toriyama put it: A Super Saiyan of a slightly different color than Goku.

Overall I just think people shouldn't be referring to Rosé as SSGSS in terms of the anime, because it creates a ton of confusion.

[Dragon Wukong]

State your sources! Where does Goku ever imply that god ki and Super Saiyan God are the same? This is what's frustrating me, you're spreading misinformation and not even showing any sources to back up your case, I'm well aware of the stigma behind this topic but I tried my best to list all my sources, and it feels like you haven't bothered reading it because you're ignoring what I said in my thread.

Not him but the fight with Toppo (in the manga, just talking about the manga right here) has Goku use SSG when Toppo comments on him casting a godly aura, before doing the same thing himself without a transformation. It seems to imply that most people who use god ki can simply do so, where for Saiyans who do it they become a Super Saiyan God. I.E. For Saiyans having god ki is necessary and sufficient to being a Super Saiyan God (or forms that come after it), to put it in "logic" terms.

[Dragon Wukong]

State your sources! Where does Goku ever imply that god ki and Super Saiyan God are the same? This is what's frustrating me, you're spreading misinformation and not even showing any sources to back up your case, I'm well aware of the stigma behind this topic but I tried my best to list all my sources, and it feels like you haven't bothered reading it because you're ignoring what I said in my thread.

Not him but the fight with Toppo (in the manga, just talking about the manga right here) has Goku use SSG when Toppo comments on him casting a godly aura, before doing the same thing himself without a transformation. It seems to imply that most people who use god ki can simply do so, where for Saiyans who do it they become a Super Saiyan God. I.E. For Saiyans having god ki is necessary and sufficient to being a Super Saiyan God (or forms that come after it), to put it in "logic" terms. I wouldn't consider it misinformation to say that for Saiyans, god ki and SSG are one and the same in that medium.

[Aim]

Not him but the fight with Toppo (in the manga, just talking about the manga right here) has Goku use SSG when Toppo comments on him casting a godly aura, before doing the same thing himself without a transformation.

Okay, yes that happened.

It seems to imply that most people who use god ki can simply do so, where for Saiyans who do it they become a Super Saiyan God. I.E. For Saiyans having god ki is necessary and sufficient to being a Super Saiyan God (or forms that come after it), to put it in "logic" terms.

Saiyan's need to become Super Saiyan God to use god ki? Interesting theory, however, it can be said that it was almost insinuated just by whats happened so far in the story that Goku only using god ki wouldn't be enough to beat Toppo, so he went into a Super Saiyan God as well becoming more powerful, whereas Toppo, already has an enormous base power level and may have even needed to use god ki in order to sense Goku while in his godly form.

[Miracles]

State your sources! Where does Goku ever imply that god ki and Super Saiyan God are the same? This is what's frustrating me, you're spreading misinformation and not even showing any sources to back up your case, I'm well aware of the stigma behind this topic but I tried my best to list all my sources, and it feels like you haven't bothered reading it because you're ignoring what I said in my thread.

Not him but the fight with Toppo (in the manga, just talking about the manga right here) has Goku use SSG when Toppo comments on him casting a godly aura, before doing the same thing himself without a transformation. It seems to imply that most people who use god ki can simply do so, where for Saiyans who do it they become a Super Saiyan God. I.E. For Saiyans having god ki is necessary and sufficient to being a Super Saiyan God (or forms that come after it), to put it in "logic" terms. I wouldn't consider it misinformation to say that for Saiyans, god ki and SSG are one and the same in that medium.

You are absolutely, factually correct. In Toriyama's BoG movie, To become a god, Ki must be contained inside.
When Goku gathered energy from the Z gang, all he did was raise his battle power.Then he was told by Piccolo that it still wasn't godly.
Beerus goes on to say, battle power that "appears" superficially [outwardly] is not godly.
Afterwards, the SSG ritual is accurately completed, now, none of the Z warriors can sense Goku's ki, once his hair turns red.
Conclusion: Raising battle power does not make one a god but bottling the ki up does. SSJ is not god ki but Red hair is god ki.

Happy Passover/Easter/Resurrection day to all!

[The Undying]

Goku only using god ki wouldn't be enough to beat Toppo, so he went into a Super Saiyan God as well becoming more powerful

I think the implication was that Goku becoming a Super Saiyan God is how he accesses the ki of a god. That's not to claim SSG's strength is god ki - it's more that its power affords him the capacity for it as a mortal, whereas actual gods just get it by default.

The same principle probably applies to Toppo or any mortal capable of reaching the same threshold in base form, although that's less clear.

[Aim]

Goku only using god ki wouldn't be enough to beat Toppo, so he went into a Super Saiyan God as well becoming more powerful

I think the implication was that Goku becoming a Super Saiyan God is how he accesses the ki of a god. That's not to claim SSG's strength is god ki - it's more that its power affords him the capacity for it as a mortal, whereas actual gods just get it by default.

The same principle probably applies to Toppo or any mortal capable of reaching the same threshold in base form, although that's less clear.

Oh, I see, that makes sense. Could that possibly point towards Toppo accessing god ki being a separate 'base transformation'?

[Aim]

You should really use the official translations and not ancient fansubs from the least competent translators on offer. Probably quite important with this semantic analysis.

I checked through official translations, it's basically the same.

[Civic]

I've always found this confusing. I had assumed (however I did) that accessing SSG (either through the ritual like Goku or specialised training like Vegeta) conferred on the user an understanding of what god ki is, which can then be utilised without the SSG transformation (the Saiyan beyond god idea). So SSGSS is still using the power of god ki, brought by the original SSG transformation, but without requiring (at least after the first time) transforming into SSG (much like becoming a SSJ3 doesn't need an incremental step from SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 and the user can just go straight into SSJ3). But the form's official title has SSGSS because the powerup wouldn't be available without that original transformation of SSG? Am I getting that right? I'm talking anime.

[Aim]

I've always found this confusing. I had assumed (however I did) that accessing SSG (either through the ritual like Goku or specialised training like Vegeta) conferred on the user an understanding of what god ki is, which can then be utilised without the SSG transformation (the Saiyan beyond god idea). So SSGSS is still using the power of god ki, brought by the original SSG transformation, but without requiring (at least after the first time) transforming into SSG (much like becoming a SSJ3 doesn't need an incremental step from SSJ > SSJ2 > SSJ3 and the user can just go straight into SSJ3). But the form's official title has SSGSS because the powerup wouldn't be available without that original transformation of SSG? Am I getting that right? I'm talking anime.

The anime never bothered to explain anything, unfortunately it suffers from "Super man" fever, multiple writers, not enough time, too much inconsistency. Saiyan Beyond God is probably best left in the past, it's literally hasn't been mentioned since, and looks like it was scraped. I'm not sure if Toriyama came up with Saiyan Beyond God, but if he wasn't, that explains it's absence.

I mean, it could be argued that god ki can be accessed in base form, and Super Saiyan God just provides the actual multiplier, however, when the characters are in base, their ki can still be sensed even when fighting.

SSGSS has an explanation along the lines of "The power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan", this can be interpreted in a few ways;
just regular god ki with Super Saiyan, which doesn't make sense, Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan, or evolving into Super Saiyan, or while in Super Saiyan God, going Super Saiyan. It's a little vague and hard to pin point, but the user does need Super Saiyan God in order to access SSGSS, it's even in the name: Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

It is possible to go into SSGSS straight from the start, as we've seen. I guess one could try and compare SSGSS KK and say it's being stacked, but even then, it's not really stacking since it's part of the Super Saiyan line. It's all pretty confusing stuff.

But basically what I go by: SSGSS = Super Saiyan God (Or Power of Super Saiyan God, I interpret that has the power of that transformation or the actual transformation, very similar if not the same) + Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

[ekrolo2]

Black is a God occupying Goku's body, so, if he went Super Saiyan he'd naturally use God ki resulting in an altered SS. This is in line with SSGSS being just SS with a different ki source/power running through it.

[Grimlock]

I wouldn't say "naturally" because that would imply becoming regular Super Saiyan would no longer be possible. We know that this is not the case. That means god ki is something that can somehow be "turned on/turned off", like Ultimate in the anime.

[Aim]

Black is a God occupying Goku's body, so, if he went Super Saiyan he'd naturally use God ki resulting in an altered SS. This is in line with SSGSS being just SS with a different ki source/power running through it.

As far as I know there isn't a source stating this. As far as the limited guides go, it's not SSGSS, it's either his own "Beautiful" version of Super Saiyan, or a new form completely more so leaning towards the first option.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I wouldn't say "naturally" because that would imply becoming regular Super Saiyan would no longer be possible. We know that this is not the case. That means god ki is something that can somehow be "turned on/turned off", like Ultimate in the anime.

Iirc at some point during the anime once Goku went Blue, everyone realized cause they couldn't sense him. So I think that's probably how it goes rn.

Saiyan Beyond God is a movie only thing, but for this whole instance it would probably complicate things even more.


Anyway, as for my headcanon without mixing continuities, I want to believe that Black is a true Saiyan Beyond God like the ones from RoF with a Divine soul who can access all forms (even Super Saiyan God) but for him it's like a set scale of power. Regular forms won't give him more of a boost. So, once his base power increases beyond what he could do as SS or even 2 and 3, he reaches that SSG level.

In both instances he went Rose immediately, since as a SS in the Manga he evolved and in the anime he immediately went for it, like Goku and Vegeta don't have to go God and then Blue.

Like with Baby Vegeta having potentially different stuff going on with his forms, I believe that Black cannot be benefitted by mortal transformations, which is why we don't see him going SS3 while in his weird-SSG like Base to produce some kind of Rose SS3.

So basically, we just never saw him go God imo. And as in the Manga his SS evolved, cause again, it wouldn't be a form of much use to him and in the anime he straight up powered up to it.

That's me of course.