Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[miguelnuva1]

Not even the comic agrees. As U18 Bra pointed out, U16 Bra’s had to be twisted to begin with to fall under Babidi’s control.

Piccolo and Vegeta were also endanger of being controlled by Babidi, Piccolo would have simply refused and Vegeta allowed himself to be possessed. Bra we know is spoiled and nigh all powerful but she only attacked and killed her friends due to being controlled. Tommy almost destroyed the Power Rangers when he was under mind control and they all forgave him.

Maybe I'm wrong but the story reads like Babidi has full control over Bra and is bringing out and amplifying her worse features.

Oh, boy, I can't wait for the shoehorned plot-critical tragic backstory at the last moment.



I'd say that while she may be under control, the fact that butchering her friends, family and innocent people meant nothing to her, but dissing her strength is what gets the control to break still makes her look pretty shitty.

She was always a Bad character do to how she was brought up but and presented. I'm arguing that with out Babidi she wouldn't have killed everyone.

Its not "twisting facts." You're twisting what i'm saing. She's not innocent. She's an egomaniac with severe anger issues who said thatshe shouldn't have to protect the weak and worthless. And ruthlessly butchered her friends and family without a second thought.

I dont know about you, but patting poor little Bra on the head and going "its okay, it wasn't your fault" would be terrible.

How am I twisting anything we you said one word. Vegeta as a Majin choose to do everything, Bra is being influenced by Babidi to kill her friends and family. Bra is a bad person but a good guy, under Babidi's control she is a bad guy. She butchered these friends and family becasue Babidi is telling her to.

She didnt hasitate to blow up Piccolo or cut Gohan in half and the only reason she is doubting now is because someone call her weak....

so to her being weak is more of a concern than killing her friends and family with her own hands which she did with a smile on her face.

That once again is a problem with her upbringing and being a Saiyan. Under control she is free from emotional attachment but bringing up her strength is what is connecting her back to her original self. It's bad character building but I've seen several fictional characters react similar to Bra.

Piccolo was never in danger. That was Krillin being a moron since he was worrying about Piccolo who has been good for over a decade and merged with god instead of the person who let Cell eat his future wife to stroke his ego. And Vegeta was a rotten SOB even in the Buu Saga, so failing to see your point. Bra is basically Vegeta with none of the excuses so yeah. So was an evil bitch before Babidi got his mitts on her and weak-will too since Vegeta and Cell got the Majin boost and told Babidi to screw off, while Bra was all too willing to obey like a muppet. And it’s telling that she only started to resist after being called weak and not as she was happily murdering her friends and family.

And Tommy is a poor example since Tommy was a good, honest person who was kidnapped and brainwashed. He wasn’t evil or remotely bad before then, unlike Bra who tried to blow up the Earth to beat her half-brother in a duel.

Also, Bra is a half Saiyan do don’t go bringing ‘she’s a Saiyan’ into this. Trunks was raised and trained by a still bad Vegeta and he never came close to Bra’s level pettiness. Or Gohan who has every reason in Shonen to be an emo edgelord came out balance.

Supreme Kai says anyone that had darkness in their heart at any point was in danger and Vegeta was not evil in the Buu arc he was a bad character. Goku is also a bad character in the buu arc and in super despite being on the good side and being pure.

Like I said Bra was not evil, she was spoiled, nigh all powerful and was brought up by a character who had the worst of Goku and Vegeta in him. Vegito in u16 has fits and acts like a child when he doesn't get his way and Bra saw this and thought that how you act. Bra is somewhere between Cell saga and Buu saga Vegeta, a bad person but not a villain, there is a difference between her and someone like Old Broly or Frieza.

Like I said that's not her fault if she wasn't as strong minded as Cell or Vegeta that is a testament to her upbringing and weak mindness. Being weak minded doesn't make you evil or bad.

I bring up Tommy becasue you see how much he changed when he was under Rita's control? If Bra is under Babidi's control fully he is the one changing the way she thinks, acts and feels. Killing her family and friends is easy because she sees them as enemies now. Black Lady was the same in Sailor Moon when she was controlled. Black Lady's trigger was only when her Mother appeared in front of her, Bra thinks she is strong so someone is showing her the weakness in her argument. Demon Inuyasha is another example of his mental capacity not being able to tell between friend and foe until he was triggered to regain control of himself.

She thinks she got to this level on her own but u18 Bra is showing her it was Babidi's power not hers, that is the first argument that turns the light bulb off in her head.

Bra was a kid when she did that with Gohan as well, It is Vegito and Bulma's job to make sure she knows what is right and what is wrong and from what we've been shown Vegito hasn't been doing a good job running around as King of the Universe and we haven't see Bulma yet as we know.

For the final point. Buu saga Vegeta was not as bad as U16 Vegito remember Vegito threatened Gohan to get Gohan to fight him didn't he? Trunks had a father that was softening up after seeing his future son die as well as Bulma there, Trunks was also no where near as strong as Bra. Trunks and Bra have two completely different lifestyles so comparing them is moot other than to say one was brought up right and the other wrong.

Goku and Vegeta are both good guys in the Buu saga and both put the world at stake of petty differences, I haven't read the U16 Novel all the way but from the specials and what little I did read Vegito is far worse than either of them and has far more power and authority going to his head.

So going through all these factors on top of her seeming to be a slave vs her own free will I can see plenty to forgive Bra. Like I said I know a lot of people hate her and for good reason so I also see it being easier to write her off and not wanting redemption for her.

No one wants a character they hate redeemed.

[HeroR]

Piccolo and Vegeta were also endanger of being controlled by Babidi, Piccolo would have simply refused and Vegeta allowed himself to be possessed. Bra we know is spoiled and nigh all powerful but she only attacked and killed her friends due to being controlled. Tommy almost destroyed the Power Rangers when he was under mind control and they all forgave him.

Maybe I'm wrong but the story reads like Babidi has full control over Bra and is bringing out and amplifying her worse features.



She was always a Bad character do to how she was brought up but and presented. I'm arguing that with out Babidi she wouldn't have killed everyone.



How am I twisting anything we you said one word. Vegeta as a Majin choose to do everything, Bra is being influenced by Babidi to kill her friends and family. Bra is a bad person but a good guy, under Babidi's control she is a bad guy. She butchered these friends and family becasue Babidi is telling her to.



That once again is a problem with her upbringing and being a Saiyan. Under control she is free from emotional attachment but bringing up her strength is what is connecting her back to her original self. It's bad character building but I've seen several fictional characters react similar to Bra.

Piccolo was never in danger. That was Krillin being a moron since he was worrying about Piccolo who has been good for over a decade and merged with god instead of the person who let Cell eat his future wife to stroke his ego. And Vegeta was a rotten SOB even in the Buu Saga, so failing to see your point. Bra is basically Vegeta with none of the excuses so yeah. So was an evil bitch before Babidi got his mitts on her and weak-will too since Vegeta and Cell got the Majin boost and told Babidi to screw off, while Bra was all too willing to obey like a muppet. And it’s telling that she only started to resist after being called weak and not as she was happily murdering her friends and family.

And Tommy is a poor example since Tommy was a good, honest person who was kidnapped and brainwashed. He wasn’t evil or remotely bad before then, unlike Bra who tried to blow up the Earth to beat her half-brother in a duel.

Also, Bra is a half Saiyan do don’t go bringing ‘she’s a Saiyan’ into this. Trunks was raised and trained by a still bad Vegeta and he never came close to Bra’s level pettiness. Or Gohan who has every reason in Shonen to be an emo edgelord came out balance.

Supreme Kai says anyone that had darkness in their heart at any point was in danger and Vegeta was not evil in the Buu arc he was a bad character. Goku is also a bad character in the buu arc and in super despite being on the good side and being pure.

Like I said Bra was not evil, she was spoiled, nigh all powerful and was brought up by a character who had the worst of Goku and Vegeta in him. Vegito in u16 has fits and acts like a child when he doesn't get his way and Bra saw this and thought that how you act. Bra is somewhere between Cell saga and Buu saga Vegeta, a bad person but not a villain, there is a difference between her and someone like Old Broly or Frieza.

Like I said that's not her fault if she wasn't as strong minded as Cell or Vegeta that is a testament to her upbringing and weak mindness. Being weak minded doesn't make you evil or bad.

I bring up Tommy becasue you see how much he changed when he was under Rita's control? If Bra is under Babidi's control fully he is the one changing the way she thinks, acts and feels. Killing her family and friends is easy because she sees them as enemies now. Black Lady was the same in Sailor Moon when she was controlled. Black Lady's trigger was only when her Mother appeared in front of her, Bra thinks she is strong so someone is showing her the weakness in her argument. Demon Inuyasha is another example of his mental capacity not being able to tell between friend and foe until he was triggered to regain control of himself.

She thinks she got to this level on her own but u18 Bra is showing her it was Babidi's power not hers, that is the first argument that turns the light bulb off in her head.

Bra was a kid when she did that with Gohan as well, It is Vegito and Bulma's job to make sure she knows what is right and what is wrong and from what we've been shown Vegito hasn't been doing a good job running around as King of the Universe and we haven't see Bulma yet as we know.

For the final point. Buu saga Vegeta was not as bad as U16 Vegito remember Vegito threatened Gohan to get Gohan to fight him didn't he? Trunks had a father that was softening up after seeing his future son die as well as Bulma there, Trunks was also no where near as strong as Bra. Trunks and Bra have two completely different lifestyles so comparing them is moot other than to say one was brought up right and the other wrong.

Goku and Vegeta are both good guys in the Buu saga and both put the world at stake of petty differences, I haven't read the U16 Novel all the way but from the specials and what little I did read Vegito is far worse than either of them and has far more power and authority going to his head.

So going through all these factors on top of her seeming to be a slave vs her own free will I can see plenty to forgive Bra. Like I said I know a lot of people hate her and for good reason so I also see it being easier to write her off and not wanting redemption for her.

No one wants a character they hate redeemed.

That wasn't what the Supreme Kai said. He said if you had any darkness in your heart, not that if you had darkness at 'any' point in your life. And Vegeta was still evil since again, he purposely sold his soul for power, something he freely admitted too doing. And I don't see how Goku is a bad character.

You can say it all you want doesn't make it true. And why do people act like she was only raised by Vegito? She had the same family network that raised Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. And this is again ignoring that Trunks was raised and train by Buu Saga Vegeta who is worst than Vegito since Vegito for all his flaws goes around protecting his universe like Superman. She's Cell Saga Vegeta.

And again, she was raised by the same network as the other half-Saiyans. Why are we acting like Vegito was the sole person raising her? And I said she was evil and weak-minded.

Tommy is nothing like Bra since he was a very good person and noble person who was literally kidnapped and brainwashed. You can't just say 'took at Tommy' who had his entire personality changed compared to Bra who is basically the same person except now she can act out her evil villain dreams. And Black Lady is also a poor example since Wise Man literally mind rapped her and altered her memories into thinking her parents hated her. And just like Tommy, Chibi-Usa acted nothing like Black Lady despite being brat, while Bra's overall personality is intact. Demon Inuyasha is just Inuyasha with his demon side running wild, so not seeing how that relates to Bra. Super Saiyan Berserk Kale is what Demon Inuyasha is.

Bra knows she didn't get to that level on her own since she as bragging about how Babidi freed her of trying to be good and now she was in full control of her power. I mean, it's literally in the comic. And Bra's put down wasn't that she had Babidi help her became strong, it was that she was an evil bitch who butchered her family whiling obeying a worm like Babidi and there was something very evil with her to begin with for this to even happened.

So she was kid. It isn't like she mature since then. And again, it isn't just Vegito raising her. In fact, that Special showed Gohan calming Bra down and teaching her control so we know she had a support system outside of her father. Yet, she just forgets the lessons Gohan teaches by the end of the Special.

Aw, yes he was since Vegeta sold his soul and murdered a bunch of people with a grin on his face to get Goku to fight him. Vegito for all his flaws goes around like Superman across the universe and help people, which maybe for selfish reasons but it's far more noble than anything Vegeta has done before he blew himself up. And Vegito may have threatened Gohan but guess what, he didn't murdered a bunch of innocent people like Majin Vegeta to get it.

Vegeta wasn't a good guy in the Buu Saga until he was partly revived. He had the same role as the Cell Saga where he was a hero-antagonist. He was with the heroes for his own self-purpose and would screw them over to get something. Calling Vegito worst than Buu Saga Vegeta before he blew himself tells me again that you need to reread the Buu Saga because you're getting several information wrong.

And what does Bra being more powerful than Trunks have to do with anything? Trunks was still raise with an emotional distance father who never even hugged him, and he still was nowhere near as nuts. And you didn't touch Gohan who went through a life time of trauma since he was four, yet he's stable. In fact, Bra is worst than either Trunks and Gohan because both of them had to fight for their lives while Bra grew up in a peaceful era. So she basically didn't have suffer any kind of trauma in her life outside of the trauma she caused herself.

So far, nothing really supports that Bra is a helpless slave since she was always this bad. All the Majin charm seemed to done is allow her to act the way she always wanted, but couldn't because she had people who could stop her in her father and Gohan. And this supported by the comic itself with Bra saying that her counterpart was an evil person to begin with for her to go this far. So it isn't about hating Bra. The narration for her for literally years have been she was basically Cell Saga Vegeta and she only really did good because it was expected, not because it was something she wanted to do.

[miguelnuva1]

Piccolo was never in danger. That was Krillin being a moron since he was worrying about Piccolo who has been good for over a decade and merged with god instead of the person who let Cell eat his future wife to stroke his ego. And Vegeta was a rotten SOB even in the Buu Saga, so failing to see your point. Bra is basically Vegeta with none of the excuses so yeah. So was an evil bitch before Babidi got his mitts on her and weak-will too since Vegeta and Cell got the Majin boost and told Babidi to screw off, while Bra was all too willing to obey like a muppet. And it’s telling that she only started to resist after being called weak and not as she was happily murdering her friends and family.

And Tommy is a poor example since Tommy was a good, honest person who was kidnapped and brainwashed. He wasn’t evil or remotely bad before then, unlike Bra who tried to blow up the Earth to beat her half-brother in a duel.

Also, Bra is a half Saiyan do don’t go bringing ‘she’s a Saiyan’ into this. Trunks was raised and trained by a still bad Vegeta and he never came close to Bra’s level pettiness. Or Gohan who has every reason in Shonen to be an emo edgelord came out balance.

Supreme Kai says anyone that had darkness in their heart at any point was in danger and Vegeta was not evil in the Buu arc he was a bad character. Goku is also a bad character in the buu arc and in super despite being on the good side and being pure.

Like I said Bra was not evil, she was spoiled, nigh all powerful and was brought up by a character who had the worst of Goku and Vegeta in him. Vegito in u16 has fits and acts like a child when he doesn't get his way and Bra saw this and thought that how you act. Bra is somewhere between Cell saga and Buu saga Vegeta, a bad person but not a villain, there is a difference between her and someone like Old Broly or Frieza.

Like I said that's not her fault if she wasn't as strong minded as Cell or Vegeta that is a testament to her upbringing and weak mindness. Being weak minded doesn't make you evil or bad.

I bring up Tommy becasue you see how much he changed when he was under Rita's control? If Bra is under Babidi's control fully he is the one changing the way she thinks, acts and feels. Killing her family and friends is easy because she sees them as enemies now. Black Lady was the same in Sailor Moon when she was controlled. Black Lady's trigger was only when her Mother appeared in front of her, Bra thinks she is strong so someone is showing her the weakness in her argument. Demon Inuyasha is another example of his mental capacity not being able to tell between friend and foe until he was triggered to regain control of himself.

She thinks she got to this level on her own but u18 Bra is showing her it was Babidi's power not hers, that is the first argument that turns the light bulb off in her head.

Bra was a kid when she did that with Gohan as well, It is Vegito and Bulma's job to make sure she knows what is right and what is wrong and from what we've been shown Vegito hasn't been doing a good job running around as King of the Universe and we haven't see Bulma yet as we know.

For the final point. Buu saga Vegeta was not as bad as U16 Vegito remember Vegito threatened Gohan to get Gohan to fight him didn't he? Trunks had a father that was softening up after seeing his future son die as well as Bulma there, Trunks was also no where near as strong as Bra. Trunks and Bra have two completely different lifestyles so comparing them is moot other than to say one was brought up right and the other wrong.

Goku and Vegeta are both good guys in the Buu saga and both put the world at stake of petty differences, I haven't read the U16 Novel all the way but from the specials and what little I did read Vegito is far worse than either of them and has far more power and authority going to his head.

So going through all these factors on top of her seeming to be a slave vs her own free will I can see plenty to forgive Bra. Like I said I know a lot of people hate her and for good reason so I also see it being easier to write her off and not wanting redemption for her.

No one wants a character they hate redeemed.

That wasn't what the Supreme Kai said. He said if you had any darkness in your heart, not that if you had darkness at 'any' point in your life. And Vegeta was still evil since again, he purposely sold his soul for power, something he freely admitted too doing. And I don't see how Goku is a bad character.

You can say it all you want doesn't make it true. And why do people act like she was only raised by Vegito? She had the same family network that raised Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. And this is again ignoring that Trunks was raised and train by Buu Saga Vegeta who is worst than Vegito since Vegito for all his flaws goes around protecting his universe like Superman. She's Cell Saga Vegeta.

And again, she was raised by the same network as the other half-Saiyans. Why are we acting like Vegito was the sole person raising her? And I said she was evil and weak-minded.

Tommy is nothing like Bra since he was a very good person and noble person who was literally kidnapped and brainwashed. You can't just say 'took at Tommy' who had his entire personality changed compared to Bra who is basically the same person except now she can act out her evil villain dreams. And Black Lady is also a poor example since Wise Man literally mind rapped her and altered her memories into thinking her parents hated her. And just like Tommy, Chibi-Usa acted nothing like Black Lady despite being brat, while Bra's overall personality is intact. Demon Inuyasha is just Inuyasha with his demon side running wild, so not seeing how that relates to Bra. Super Saiyan Berserk Kale is what Demon Inuyasha is.

Bra knows she didn't get to that level on her own since she as bragging about how Babidi freed her of trying to be good and now she was in full control of her power. I mean, it's literally in the comic. And Bra's put down wasn't that she had Babidi help her became strong, it was that she was an evil bitch who butchered her family whiling obeying a worm like Babidi and there was something very evil with her to begin with for this to even happened.

So she was kid. It isn't like she mature since then. And again, it isn't just Vegito raising her. In fact, that Special showed Gohan calming Bra down and teaching her control so we know she had a support system outside of her father. Yet, she just forgets the lessons Gohan teaches by the end of the Special.

Aw, yes he was since Vegeta sold his soul and murdered a bunch of people with a grin on his face to get Goku to fight him. Vegito for all his flaws goes around like Superman across the universe and help people, which maybe for selfish reasons but it's far more noble than anything Vegeta has done before he blew himself up. And Vegito may have threatened Gohan but guess what, he didn't murdered a bunch of innocent people like Majin Vegeta to get it.

Vegeta wasn't a good guy in the Buu Saga until he was partly revived. He had the same role as the Cell Saga where he was a hero-antagonist. He was with the heroes for his own self-purpose and would screw them over to get something. Calling Vegito worst than Buu Saga Vegeta before he blew himself tells me again that you need to reread the Buu Saga because you're getting several information wrong.

And what does Bra being more powerful than Trunks have to do with anything? Trunks was still raise with an emotional distance father who never even hugged him, and he still was nowhere near as nuts. And you didn't touch Gohan who went through a life time of trauma since he was four, yet he's stable. In fact, Bra is worst than either Trunks and Gohan because both of them had to fight for their lives while Bra grew up in a peaceful era. So she basically didn't have suffer any kind of trauma in her life outside of the trauma she caused herself.

So far, nothing really supports that Bra is a helpless slave since she was always this bad. All the Majin charm seemed to done is allow her to act the way she always wanted, but couldn't because she had people who could stop her in her father and Gohan. And this supported by the comic itself with Bra saying that her counterpart was an evil person to begin with for her to go this far. So it isn't about hating Bra. The narration for her for literally years have been she was basically Cell Saga Vegeta and she only really did good because it was expected, not because it was something she wanted to do.

Frieza is Evil, Buu Saga Vegeta is not. Buu Saga Vegeta married Bulma, is living with his family and even promised Trunks to take him to the park. Vegeta is not a good character but he is far from Evil. Vegeta is trying to be Evil becasue he thinks that's where is true power is which Goku calls him out on. Goku put his 9 year old son in a fight for his life yes it was needed to save the Earth but Piccolo calls him out on it. Later he chooses to fight Vegeta fairly and not use SSJ3 and then he chooses not to destroy Buu with SSJ3. Goku and Vegeta are both bad characters with Goku even stated to be a bad person by Toriyama.

Bra does not have the same family network as the other half saiyans, Vegito is her dad not Goku or Vegeta and as you said post Buu saga Vegeta is better than the Vegeta that fused with Goku. Gohan is her brother, she has no Chi-Chi influence and becasue Vegito has her running around the universe she isn't even on Earth that much. Vegito basically acts like its my way or no way where Goku and Vegeta let their wives have full control over the children.

You seem to be not understanding why I brought up Tommy. I'm using Tommy to show how much power someone can have over you with Mind control. Just becasue Majin Bra is saying she's happy that she gets to kill her family doesn't mean its true if she is fully under control. Bra can be a bad person and still have a good character which is what Vegeta was in the Buu saga and Goku is to a lesser extant.

Bra being a bad person doesn't mean she would kill her family given the chance without the majin curse.

Once again Gohan is her brother, Vegito is her father. If your father is giving you what you want and your brother is trying to teach you right which results in not being fun who are you going to listen to the most. Gohan is parenting her, Vegito is almost like a big friend.

Vegito called his 6 year old child a brat, he is flying around so he can fight people not becasue he's a hero, threatens Gohan to a fight and attacks Bardock and Cold when he lost a fight and didn't know what was going on. When Gohan calls him out on being a Brat he admits himself he wanted to attack Gohan. We also know that Vegito is going to flash and attack Gohan under his own free power and Vegito is fused from the Vegeta you say is so bad. Vegeta admits that he was going to use the Dragonballs later and we know saiayns don't see things rational like humans do. Vegeta says he would do anything to get Goku to fight him, Goku was also about to kill supreme kai to fight Vegeta.

Vegeta sitting on Earth for 7 years in peace, agreeing to not go ssj, marrying Bulma, helping against Babidi till he got desperate shows he's come a long way. he wasn't a hero-antagonist he was an anti hero.

Trunks is better off becasue Vegeta took a back seat to Bulma. Bra being stronger is a problem because more power makes you less likely to see people weaker than you as people, Vegito took Bra to planets in the middle of the war and installed more saiyan traits in her than Vegeta did in Trunks. I didn't touch on Gohan because Gohan had good mother, an good dad and a second dad/ big brother type figure that helped him grow. Trunks grew up in mostly peace times as well expect Buu and Trunks knew his Dad loved him despite what Vegeta may have shown. Their training shows that is how Vegeta bonds. Vegeta not hugging Trunks has to do with us as humans knowing that is a cold parenting style, to a saiyan like Vegeta and Trunks, Trunks could be happy just knowing his Dad is there.

Bra is a bad person but there is a difference between being bad and killing your family, there are plenty of bad people that grow up and change or they're bad but still love their family. Something is happening in her mind that is telling now it's ok to attack and kill her family. Also that seems like a jump to say Gohan and Vegito are the only reasons she didn't already kill her family, this is the same girl that wanted revenge for Pan being killed for one.

Bra is a neutral character and she acts like Vegeta in his worst heroic days but hes not evil to the way Frieza or Cell were. She needs a humbling which is why I wish U18 Goku could fight her and win, but when you have a bad parent enforcing your bad actions this is how you end up. She could have been saiyan saga Vegeta.

[Dbzfan94]

Theory: U16 Bra accidentally killed her own mother in one of her rampages. We never SEE U16 Bulma, after all.

Nothing to support that, but, nothing to go against it, either. If nothing else, it'd be worthy of a "you don't know what life has been like for me!"

Looks like you called the quote pretty much exactly

[HeroR]

Supreme Kai says anyone that had darkness in their heart at any point was in danger and Vegeta was not evil in the Buu arc he was a bad character. Goku is also a bad character in the buu arc and in super despite being on the good side and being pure.

Like I said Bra was not evil, she was spoiled, nigh all powerful and was brought up by a character who had the worst of Goku and Vegeta in him. Vegito in u16 has fits and acts like a child when he doesn't get his way and Bra saw this and thought that how you act. Bra is somewhere between Cell saga and Buu saga Vegeta, a bad person but not a villain, there is a difference between her and someone like Old Broly or Frieza.

Like I said that's not her fault if she wasn't as strong minded as Cell or Vegeta that is a testament to her upbringing and weak mindness. Being weak minded doesn't make you evil or bad.

I bring up Tommy becasue you see how much he changed when he was under Rita's control? If Bra is under Babidi's control fully he is the one changing the way she thinks, acts and feels. Killing her family and friends is easy because she sees them as enemies now. Black Lady was the same in Sailor Moon when she was controlled. Black Lady's trigger was only when her Mother appeared in front of her, Bra thinks she is strong so someone is showing her the weakness in her argument. Demon Inuyasha is another example of his mental capacity not being able to tell between friend and foe until he was triggered to regain control of himself.

She thinks she got to this level on her own but u18 Bra is showing her it was Babidi's power not hers, that is the first argument that turns the light bulb off in her head.

Bra was a kid when she did that with Gohan as well, It is Vegito and Bulma's job to make sure she knows what is right and what is wrong and from what we've been shown Vegito hasn't been doing a good job running around as King of the Universe and we haven't see Bulma yet as we know.

For the final point. Buu saga Vegeta was not as bad as U16 Vegito remember Vegito threatened Gohan to get Gohan to fight him didn't he? Trunks had a father that was softening up after seeing his future son die as well as Bulma there, Trunks was also no where near as strong as Bra. Trunks and Bra have two completely different lifestyles so comparing them is moot other than to say one was brought up right and the other wrong.

Goku and Vegeta are both good guys in the Buu saga and both put the world at stake of petty differences, I haven't read the U16 Novel all the way but from the specials and what little I did read Vegito is far worse than either of them and has far more power and authority going to his head.

So going through all these factors on top of her seeming to be a slave vs her own free will I can see plenty to forgive Bra. Like I said I know a lot of people hate her and for good reason so I also see it being easier to write her off and not wanting redemption for her.

No one wants a character they hate redeemed.

That wasn't what the Supreme Kai said. He said if you had any darkness in your heart, not that if you had darkness at 'any' point in your life. And Vegeta was still evil since again, he purposely sold his soul for power, something he freely admitted too doing. And I don't see how Goku is a bad character.

You can say it all you want doesn't make it true. And why do people act like she was only raised by Vegito? She had the same family network that raised Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. And this is again ignoring that Trunks was raised and train by Buu Saga Vegeta who is worst than Vegito since Vegito for all his flaws goes around protecting his universe like Superman. She's Cell Saga Vegeta.

And again, she was raised by the same network as the other half-Saiyans. Why are we acting like Vegito was the sole person raising her? And I said she was evil and weak-minded.

Tommy is nothing like Bra since he was a very good person and noble person who was literally kidnapped and brainwashed. You can't just say 'took at Tommy' who had his entire personality changed compared to Bra who is basically the same person except now she can act out her evil villain dreams. And Black Lady is also a poor example since Wise Man literally mind rapped her and altered her memories into thinking her parents hated her. And just like Tommy, Chibi-Usa acted nothing like Black Lady despite being brat, while Bra's overall personality is intact. Demon Inuyasha is just Inuyasha with his demon side running wild, so not seeing how that relates to Bra. Super Saiyan Berserk Kale is what Demon Inuyasha is.

Bra knows she didn't get to that level on her own since she as bragging about how Babidi freed her of trying to be good and now she was in full control of her power. I mean, it's literally in the comic. And Bra's put down wasn't that she had Babidi help her became strong, it was that she was an evil bitch who butchered her family whiling obeying a worm like Babidi and there was something very evil with her to begin with for this to even happened.

So she was kid. It isn't like she mature since then. And again, it isn't just Vegito raising her. In fact, that Special showed Gohan calming Bra down and teaching her control so we know she had a support system outside of her father. Yet, she just forgets the lessons Gohan teaches by the end of the Special.

Aw, yes he was since Vegeta sold his soul and murdered a bunch of people with a grin on his face to get Goku to fight him. Vegito for all his flaws goes around like Superman across the universe and help people, which maybe for selfish reasons but it's far more noble than anything Vegeta has done before he blew himself up. And Vegito may have threatened Gohan but guess what, he didn't murdered a bunch of innocent people like Majin Vegeta to get it.

Vegeta wasn't a good guy in the Buu Saga until he was partly revived. He had the same role as the Cell Saga where he was a hero-antagonist. He was with the heroes for his own self-purpose and would screw them over to get something. Calling Vegito worst than Buu Saga Vegeta before he blew himself tells me again that you need to reread the Buu Saga because you're getting several information wrong.

And what does Bra being more powerful than Trunks have to do with anything? Trunks was still raise with an emotional distance father who never even hugged him, and he still was nowhere near as nuts. And you didn't touch Gohan who went through a life time of trauma since he was four, yet he's stable. In fact, Bra is worst than either Trunks and Gohan because both of them had to fight for their lives while Bra grew up in a peaceful era. So she basically didn't have suffer any kind of trauma in her life outside of the trauma she caused herself.

So far, nothing really supports that Bra is a helpless slave since she was always this bad. All the Majin charm seemed to done is allow her to act the way she always wanted, but couldn't because she had people who could stop her in her father and Gohan. And this supported by the comic itself with Bra saying that her counterpart was an evil person to begin with for her to go this far. So it isn't about hating Bra. The narration for her for literally years have been she was basically Cell Saga Vegeta and she only really did good because it was expected, not because it was something she wanted to do.

Frieza is Evil, Buu Saga Vegeta is not. Buu Saga Vegeta married Bulma, is living with his family and even promised Trunks to take him to the park. Vegeta is not a good character but he is far from Evil. Vegeta is trying to be Evil becasue he thinks that's where is true power is which Goku calls him out on. Goku put his 9 year old son in a fight for his life yes it was needed to save the Earth but Piccolo calls him out on it. Later he chooses to fight Vegeta fairly and not use SSJ3 and then he chooses not to destroy Buu with SSJ3. Goku and Vegeta are both bad characters with Goku even stated to be a bad person by Toriyama.

Bra does not have the same family network as the other half saiyans, Vegito is her dad not Goku or Vegeta and as you said post Buu saga Vegeta is better than the Vegeta that fused with Goku. Gohan is her brother, she has no Chi-Chi influence and becasue Vegito has her running around the universe she isn't even on Earth that much. Vegito basically acts like its my way or no way where Goku and Vegeta let their wives have full control over the children.

You seem to be not understanding why I brought up Tommy. I'm using Tommy to show how much power someone can have over you with Mind control. Just becasue Majin Bra is saying she's happy that she gets to kill her family doesn't mean its true if she is fully under control. Bra can be a bad person and still have a good character which is what Vegeta was in the Buu saga and Goku is to a lesser extant.

Bra being a bad person doesn't mean she would kill her family given the chance without the majin curse.

Once again Gohan is her brother, Vegito is her father. If your father is giving you what you want and your brother is trying to teach you right which results in not being fun who are you going to listen to the most. Gohan is parenting her, Vegito is almost like a big friend.

Vegito called his 6 year old child a brat, he is flying around so he can fight people not becasue he's a hero, threatens Gohan to a fight and attacks Bardock and Cold when he lost a fight and didn't know what was going on. When Gohan calls him out on being a Brat he admits himself he wanted to attack Gohan. We also know that Vegito is going to flash and attack Gohan under his own free power and Vegito is fused from the Vegeta you say is so bad. Vegeta admits that he was going to use the Dragonballs later and we know saiayns don't see things rational like humans do. Vegeta says he would do anything to get Goku to fight him, Goku was also about to kill supreme kai to fight Vegeta.

Vegeta sitting on Earth for 7 years in peace, agreeing to not go ssj, marrying Bulma, helping against Babidi till he got desperate shows he's come a long way. he wasn't a hero-antagonist he was an anti hero.

Trunks is better off becasue Vegeta took a back seat to Bulma. Bra being stronger is a problem because more power makes you less likely to see people weaker than you as people, Vegito took Bra to planets in the middle of the war and installed more saiyan traits in her than Vegeta did in Trunks. I didn't touch on Gohan because Gohan had good mother, an good dad and a second dad/ big brother type figure that helped him grow. Trunks grew up in mostly peace times as well expect Buu and Trunks knew his Dad loved him despite what Vegeta may have shown. Their training shows that is how Vegeta bonds. Vegeta not hugging Trunks has to do with us as humans knowing that is a cold parenting style, to a saiyan like Vegeta and Trunks, Trunks could be happy just knowing his Dad is there.

Bra is a bad person but there is a difference between being bad and killing your family, there are plenty of bad people that grow up and change or they're bad but still love their family. Something is happening in her mind that is telling now it's ok to attack and kill her family. Also that seems like a jump to say Gohan and Vegito are the only reasons she didn't already kill her family, this is the same girl that wanted revenge for Pan being killed for one.

Bra is a neutral character and she acts like Vegeta in his worst heroic days but hes not evil to the way Frieza or Cell were. She needs a humbling which is why I wish U18 Goku could fight her and win, but when you have a bad parent enforcing your bad actions this is how you end up. She could have been saiyan saga Vegeta.

Just because Vegeta isn’t as evil as Freeza or as he used to be doesn’t mean that he isn’t an evil person. And what does Vegeta being marry have to do with anything? Evil people can get marry. And he wasn’t trying when he had no issue killing people to provoke Goku.

As for Goku. He put his son to fight Cell because he literally had no choice. No one else could beat Cell. So it was either Gohan fight or everyone dies. Where Goku went wrong was not telling Gohan this and not understanding that Gohan didn’t like to fight. Agree with Super Saiyan 3, but that actually showed Goku cared too much about Vegeta’s feelings, not him being a bad person. That and Goku didn’t kill Buu because he wanted to next generation to do it since they couldn’t rely on them to save him since he was dead, something both Goku and Piccolo agreed on. Seriously, did you watch the Buu Saga because this point was explained several times. And Toriyama never said Goku was a bad person. He said Goku wasn’t a traditional hero because he will put a good fight before protecting people. Although those things doesn’t make Goku a bad person. Just a selfish person and even that’s downplayed since Goku clearly got stronger to protect his friends from the Saiyans and don’t want his friends to depend on him forever so he tries to train successors.

It’s the same outside of Vegito. And Chichi is clearly around despite Bra not being her daughter. We even see her in the Special after Bra leaves the HTC. And where was it said that she wasn’t on Earth that much?

You’re using two different shows to justify Bra. Rita’s mind-control isn’t Babidi’s mind-control, so it makes no sense to bring it up. Especially when we have examples of people fighting off the Majin charm, while no is shown fighting mind control in Power Rangers. Also, Babidi’s magic only works if there is something rotten already there as U18 Bra states. And trying to drag Goku into this because you ignore or forgot Goku’s motives in both the Cell and Buu Saga, both cases was him actually trying to save people in the long run, and twist what Toriyama said about Goku to say Bra just being a bad person and Vegeta was than just bad.

She already tried to kill her family once when she tried to blow up the Earth as a kid to beat Gohan in a sparring match. The only reason she didn’t is because Gohan stopped her. She wasn’t even sorry about it afterwards.

What does it matter? Gohan has clear influence over Bra and even taught her how to go Super Saiyan. To dismiss that influence because ‘Gohan is only her brother’ is nuts, especially in a show about family of choice. The fact is, Bra has too many positive influence characters in her life for her to that mess up. I can see her being spoiled, arrogant in her power, and even dismissive of those outside of her family, but it makes no sense why she’s so out there that she can nearly nuke her own home and not even regret trying to do it.

And Vegito is still a better person than Buu Saga Vegeta because Vegito didn’t blow up a stadium to provoke someone to fight. And we don’t know under what conditions those events of the future will happened, so that’s assumptions on your part.

Vegeta literally never said anything about using thr Dragon Balls later. So to say the least, you’re making stuff up or misremembering the Buu Saga. And Goku only threatened the Supreme Kai after Vegeta shot at the audience twice and killed thousands of people. Then Vegeta gave Goku a choice. Fight him or he will keep killing people, and keep in mind Goku’s wife and friends were in the stadium so Vegeta could have easily killed them. In fact, his second blast nearly hit Bulma. So this is again you ignoring context as to why Goku threatened Shin.

Those things doesn’t make Vegeta not evil since Freeza also agreed to the no-kill rule of the TOP and was still very evil. Abs you’re once again misremembering the Buu Saga. He only helped against Babidi because he wanted things done fast so he could fight Goku, not because he actually gave a damn and didn’t even want to go until Goku said he was leaving. The moment things started to drag, he was going to blow up Babidi’s spaceship despite the Supreme Kai’s warnings that he could wake Buu and Vegeta outright saying he doesn’t give a damn. He was a hero-antagonist. Only went along with being good because it served his needs, and betrayed everyone the moment things didn’t go his way. And Vegeta decided after the fight with Yakon that he was going to sell his soul, which was before he even lost patience. Just because Vegeta wasn’t as much as a piece of shit doesn’t mean he wasn’t evil. Just less evil like Saiyan Saga Piccolo. Who Kami said was still evil despite Goku and Vegeta being allowed to pass into the Afterlife.

This is a lot of assumption that Vegeta took a backseat to Bulma since such a thing was never stated nor shown in the manga or even the anime. The only things we know was that Vegeta was emotionally distant and he never hugged his son. And her being very strong is a poor excuse when Gohan was the strongest being in the universe at nine years old. And Bra has a good mom, several brothers, an honorary uncle in Piccolo, god himself in Denda, and her grandparents on her mother’s side. She actually has more people than Gohan outside of a better father. And because of Buu and Trunks being on the frontlines and learning that his dad was killed put him above Bra who never experienced anything remotely similar. She’s a wannabe warrior who didn’t experience even a tenth of the hardships that the other Hydrids suffered.

And Bra knows Vegito lover despite his issues especially after the events with Ginyu, so what’s even your point? It was never even implied that Bra believes that Vegito doesn’t love her.


And she tried to willfully kill her family before along with the planet and never felt remorse for trying to do it. She only apologized because she was forced too and it wasn’t sincere.

You can be an evil person and still have love ones. King Piccolo was literally pure evil, yet even he cared for his children and went out of his way to avenge them. Toei’s Bardock is a evil person who happily committed genocide and he cares for his crew and race. You don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil. Especially when the show itself said Saiyan Saga Piccolo was still evil until he threw himself in front of Nappa’s blast.

And Gohan is literally the only reason she didn’t blow up the planet when she was nine. So it isn’t a stretch at all when it actually happened in the Special.

Bra is anything but neutral the same with Vegeta. Vegeta was the definition of hero-antagonist in the Cell and to a lesser extent the Buu Saga. A neutral character would be someone like Whis who can’t get massively involved in any event unless he gets something bad for the most part just watch the show. Neutral characters by their definition don’t push the plot, something both Bra and Vegeta massively do. They just react to events.

And again, you don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil.

[Slangh]

Babidi takes advantage of inner divisions already present in one's soul, amplifying them and shattering the soul. It's a divide and conquer tactic from within. Then, he locks certain fragments away, so that the one being possessed no longer is aware of those parts and is 'freed' from influences like shame and remorse. But those parts are still there, and if they are appealed to in a certain way, the one who is possessed regains some awareness and is on the way of rebellion and becoming whole again. Until then, they are a slave to Babidi. Majin Bra's U18 counterpart is indeed stronger than her, because she doesn't have a fragmented soul ready to be exploited. Even her anger and grief for losing Gohan hasn't taken over her soul, which usually happens in Dragon Ball stories. Instead she's non-violent and mirrors everything Majin Bra has locked away: her conscience. All of a sudden, she hears the voices of reason and conscience all at once. And now she feels the pain she's caused within by betraying that part of herself while she was possessed.

Hopefully, we now get to find out why U16 Bra is so conflicted inside. It has a lot to do with pleasing her father Vegetto, who himself has become corrupted and a complete narcissist. Bra had to prove herself again and again to him, but to no avail. Vegetto never trusted her as he forbade her to go Super Saiyan 2 and felt the need to test her after Gohan trained her instead of him. Vegetto didn't muster the patience to deal with his own daughter, only using her to police the universe. Only her power, and the control thereof, mattered to him from the day she was born. That's a good way to mess up a child.

U16 Bra has to stand up for herself and face her father, in the same way her U18 counterpart now faces her, to redeem herself and become truly free.

[miguelnuva1]

That wasn't what the Supreme Kai said. He said if you had any darkness in your heart, not that if you had darkness at 'any' point in your life. And Vegeta was still evil since again, he purposely sold his soul for power, something he freely admitted too doing. And I don't see how Goku is a bad character.

You can say it all you want doesn't make it true. And why do people act like she was only raised by Vegito? She had the same family network that raised Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. And this is again ignoring that Trunks was raised and train by Buu Saga Vegeta who is worst than Vegito since Vegito for all his flaws goes around protecting his universe like Superman. She's Cell Saga Vegeta.

And again, she was raised by the same network as the other half-Saiyans. Why are we acting like Vegito was the sole person raising her? And I said she was evil and weak-minded.

Tommy is nothing like Bra since he was a very good person and noble person who was literally kidnapped and brainwashed. You can't just say 'took at Tommy' who had his entire personality changed compared to Bra who is basically the same person except now she can act out her evil villain dreams. And Black Lady is also a poor example since Wise Man literally mind rapped her and altered her memories into thinking her parents hated her. And just like Tommy, Chibi-Usa acted nothing like Black Lady despite being brat, while Bra's overall personality is intact. Demon Inuyasha is just Inuyasha with his demon side running wild, so not seeing how that relates to Bra. Super Saiyan Berserk Kale is what Demon Inuyasha is.

Bra knows she didn't get to that level on her own since she as bragging about how Babidi freed her of trying to be good and now she was in full control of her power. I mean, it's literally in the comic. And Bra's put down wasn't that she had Babidi help her became strong, it was that she was an evil bitch who butchered her family whiling obeying a worm like Babidi and there was something very evil with her to begin with for this to even happened.

So she was kid. It isn't like she mature since then. And again, it isn't just Vegito raising her. In fact, that Special showed Gohan calming Bra down and teaching her control so we know she had a support system outside of her father. Yet, she just forgets the lessons Gohan teaches by the end of the Special.

Aw, yes he was since Vegeta sold his soul and murdered a bunch of people with a grin on his face to get Goku to fight him. Vegito for all his flaws goes around like Superman across the universe and help people, which maybe for selfish reasons but it's far more noble than anything Vegeta has done before he blew himself up. And Vegito may have threatened Gohan but guess what, he didn't murdered a bunch of innocent people like Majin Vegeta to get it.

Vegeta wasn't a good guy in the Buu Saga until he was partly revived. He had the same role as the Cell Saga where he was a hero-antagonist. He was with the heroes for his own self-purpose and would screw them over to get something. Calling Vegito worst than Buu Saga Vegeta before he blew himself tells me again that you need to reread the Buu Saga because you're getting several information wrong.

And what does Bra being more powerful than Trunks have to do with anything? Trunks was still raise with an emotional distance father who never even hugged him, and he still was nowhere near as nuts. And you didn't touch Gohan who went through a life time of trauma since he was four, yet he's stable. In fact, Bra is worst than either Trunks and Gohan because both of them had to fight for their lives while Bra grew up in a peaceful era. So she basically didn't have suffer any kind of trauma in her life outside of the trauma she caused herself.

So far, nothing really supports that Bra is a helpless slave since she was always this bad. All the Majin charm seemed to done is allow her to act the way she always wanted, but couldn't because she had people who could stop her in her father and Gohan. And this supported by the comic itself with Bra saying that her counterpart was an evil person to begin with for her to go this far. So it isn't about hating Bra. The narration for her for literally years have been she was basically Cell Saga Vegeta and she only really did good because it was expected, not because it was something she wanted to do.

Frieza is Evil, Buu Saga Vegeta is not. Buu Saga Vegeta married Bulma, is living with his family and even promised Trunks to take him to the park. Vegeta is not a good character but he is far from Evil. Vegeta is trying to be Evil becasue he thinks that's where is true power is which Goku calls him out on. Goku put his 9 year old son in a fight for his life yes it was needed to save the Earth but Piccolo calls him out on it. Later he chooses to fight Vegeta fairly and not use SSJ3 and then he chooses not to destroy Buu with SSJ3. Goku and Vegeta are both bad characters with Goku even stated to be a bad person by Toriyama.

Bra does not have the same family network as the other half saiyans, Vegito is her dad not Goku or Vegeta and as you said post Buu saga Vegeta is better than the Vegeta that fused with Goku. Gohan is her brother, she has no Chi-Chi influence and becasue Vegito has her running around the universe she isn't even on Earth that much. Vegito basically acts like its my way or no way where Goku and Vegeta let their wives have full control over the children.

You seem to be not understanding why I brought up Tommy. I'm using Tommy to show how much power someone can have over you with Mind control. Just becasue Majin Bra is saying she's happy that she gets to kill her family doesn't mean its true if she is fully under control. Bra can be a bad person and still have a good character which is what Vegeta was in the Buu saga and Goku is to a lesser extant.

Bra being a bad person doesn't mean she would kill her family given the chance without the majin curse.

Once again Gohan is her brother, Vegito is her father. If your father is giving you what you want and your brother is trying to teach you right which results in not being fun who are you going to listen to the most. Gohan is parenting her, Vegito is almost like a big friend.

Vegito called his 6 year old child a brat, he is flying around so he can fight people not becasue he's a hero, threatens Gohan to a fight and attacks Bardock and Cold when he lost a fight and didn't know what was going on. When Gohan calls him out on being a Brat he admits himself he wanted to attack Gohan. We also know that Vegito is going to flash and attack Gohan under his own free power and Vegito is fused from the Vegeta you say is so bad. Vegeta admits that he was going to use the Dragonballs later and we know saiayns don't see things rational like humans do. Vegeta says he would do anything to get Goku to fight him, Goku was also about to kill supreme kai to fight Vegeta.

Vegeta sitting on Earth for 7 years in peace, agreeing to not go ssj, marrying Bulma, helping against Babidi till he got desperate shows he's come a long way. he wasn't a hero-antagonist he was an anti hero.

Trunks is better off becasue Vegeta took a back seat to Bulma. Bra being stronger is a problem because more power makes you less likely to see people weaker than you as people, Vegito took Bra to planets in the middle of the war and installed more saiyan traits in her than Vegeta did in Trunks. I didn't touch on Gohan because Gohan had good mother, an good dad and a second dad/ big brother type figure that helped him grow. Trunks grew up in mostly peace times as well expect Buu and Trunks knew his Dad loved him despite what Vegeta may have shown. Their training shows that is how Vegeta bonds. Vegeta not hugging Trunks has to do with us as humans knowing that is a cold parenting style, to a saiyan like Vegeta and Trunks, Trunks could be happy just knowing his Dad is there.

Bra is a bad person but there is a difference between being bad and killing your family, there are plenty of bad people that grow up and change or they're bad but still love their family. Something is happening in her mind that is telling now it's ok to attack and kill her family. Also that seems like a jump to say Gohan and Vegito are the only reasons she didn't already kill her family, this is the same girl that wanted revenge for Pan being killed for one.

Bra is a neutral character and she acts like Vegeta in his worst heroic days but hes not evil to the way Frieza or Cell were. She needs a humbling which is why I wish U18 Goku could fight her and win, but when you have a bad parent enforcing your bad actions this is how you end up. She could have been saiyan saga Vegeta.

Just because Vegeta isn’t as evil as Freeza or as he used to be doesn’t mean that he isn’t an evil person. And what does Vegeta being marry have to do with anything? Evil people can get marry. And he wasn’t trying when he had no issue killing people to provoke Goku.

As for Goku. He put his son to fight Cell because he literally had no choice. No one else could beat Cell. So it was either Gohan fight or everyone dies. Where Goku went wrong was not telling Gohan this and not understanding that Gohan didn’t like to fight. Agree with Super Saiyan 3, but that actually showed Goku cared too much about Vegeta’s feelings, not him being a bad person. That and Goku didn’t kill Buu because he wanted to next generation to do it since they couldn’t rely on them to save him since he was dead, something both Goku and Piccolo agreed on. Seriously, did you watch the Buu Saga because this point was explained several times. And Toriyama never said Goku was a bad person. He said Goku wasn’t a traditional hero because he will put a good fight before protecting people. Although those things doesn’t make Goku a bad person. Just a selfish person and even that’s downplayed since Goku clearly got stronger to protect his friends from the Saiyans and don’t want his friends to depend on him forever so he tries to train successors.

It’s the same outside of Vegito. And Chichi is clearly around despite Bra not being her daughter. We even see her in the Special after Bra leaves the HTC. And where was it said that she wasn’t on Earth that much?

You’re using two different shows to justify Bra. Rita’s mind-control isn’t Babidi’s mind-control, so it makes no sense to bring it up. Especially when we have examples of people fighting off the Majin charm, while no is shown fighting mind control in Power Rangers. Also, Babidi’s magic only works if there is something rotten already there as U18 Bra states. And trying to drag Goku into this because you ignore or forgot Goku’s motives in both the Cell and Buu Saga, both cases was him actually trying to save people in the long run, and twist what Toriyama said about Goku to say Bra just being a bad person and Vegeta was than just bad.

She already tried to kill her family once when she tried to blow up the Earth as a kid to beat Gohan in a sparring match. The only reason she didn’t is because Gohan stopped her. She wasn’t even sorry about it afterwards.

What does it matter? Gohan has clear influence over Bra and even taught her how to go Super Saiyan. To dismiss that influence because ‘Gohan is only her brother’ is nuts, especially in a show about family of choice. The fact is, Bra has too many positive influence characters in her life for her to that mess up. I can see her being spoiled, arrogant in her power, and even dismissive of those outside of her family, but it makes no sense why she’s so out there that she can nearly nuke her own home and not even regret trying to do it.

And Vegito is still a better person than Buu Saga Vegeta because Vegito didn’t blow up a stadium to provoke someone to fight. And we don’t know under what conditions those events of the future will happened, so that’s assumptions on your part.

Vegeta literally never said anything about using thr Dragon Balls later. So to say the least, you’re making stuff up or misremembering the Buu Saga. And Goku only threatened the Supreme Kai after Vegeta shot at the audience twice and killed thousands of people. Then Vegeta gave Goku a choice. Fight him or he will keep killing people, and keep in mind Goku’s wife and friends were in the stadium so Vegeta could have easily killed them. In fact, his second blast nearly hit Bulma. So this is again you ignoring context as to why Goku threatened Shin.

Those things doesn’t make Vegeta not evil since Freeza also agreed to the no-kill rule of the TOP and was still very evil. Abs you’re once again misremembering the Buu Saga. He only helped against Babidi because he wanted things done fast so he could fight Goku, not because he actually gave a damn and didn’t even want to go until Goku said he was leaving. The moment things started to drag, he was going to blow up Babidi’s spaceship despite the Supreme Kai’s warnings that he could wake Buu and Vegeta outright saying he doesn’t give a damn. He was a hero-antagonist. Only went along with being good because it served his needs, and betrayed everyone the moment things didn’t go his way. And Vegeta decided after the fight with Yakon that he was going to sell his soul, which was before he even lost patience. Just because Vegeta wasn’t as much as a piece of shit doesn’t mean he wasn’t evil. Just less evil like Saiyan Saga Piccolo. Who Kami said was still evil despite Goku and Vegeta being allowed to pass into the Afterlife.

This is a lot of assumption that Vegeta took a backseat to Bulma since such a thing was never stated nor shown in the manga or even the anime. The only things we know was that Vegeta was emotionally distant and he never hugged his son. And her being very strong is a poor excuse when Gohan was the strongest being in the universe at nine years old. And Bra has a good mom, several brothers, an honorary uncle in Piccolo, god himself in Denda, and her grandparents on her mother’s side. She actually has more people than Gohan outside of a better father. And because of Buu and Trunks being on the frontlines and learning that his dad was killed put him above Bra who never experienced anything remotely similar. She’s a wannabe warrior who didn’t experience even a tenth of the hardships that the other Hydrids suffered.

And Bra knows Vegito lover despite his issues especially after the events with Ginyu, so what’s even your point? It was never even implied that Bra believes that Vegito doesn’t love her.


And she tried to willfully kill her family before along with the planet and never felt remorse for trying to do it. She only apologized because she was forced too and it wasn’t sincere.

You can be an evil person and still have love ones. King Piccolo was literally pure evil, yet even he cared for his children and went out of his way to avenge them. Toei’s Bardock is a evil person who happily committed genocide and he cares for his crew and race. You don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil. Especially when the show itself said Saiyan Saga Piccolo was still evil until he threw himself in front of Nappa’s blast.

And Gohan is literally the only reason she didn’t blow up the planet when she was nine. So it isn’t a stretch at all when it actually happened in the Special.

Bra is anything but neutral the same with Vegeta. Vegeta was the definition of hero-antagonist in the Cell and to a lesser extent the Buu Saga. A neutral character would be someone like Whis who can’t get massively involved in any event unless he gets something bad for the most part just watch the show. Neutral characters by their definition don’t push the plot, something both Bra and Vegeta massively do. They just react to events.

And again, you don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil.

Evil people arguably can't truly feel love for one thing, there is a difference between Evil and being Bad which is what the difference between Frieza and Vegeta are. Proviking Goku was also when Vegeta got the evil he wanted brought back out in his heart where he is putting on an act for Goku, which Goku later calls him out on. Majin Vegeta is trying to be evil and try to be like the old Vegeta and Goku tells him he's changed. Later he feels remorse for what happens to Gohan. Vegeta is a bad person that makes a lot of bad choices but Evil doesnt feel remorse for their actions. Light from Death Note was more evil then Vegeta.

I never said Goku made the wrong choice with Gohan, I said he made a bad choice. Yes Gohan was the only one who could beat Cell and yes it worked out in the end but Goku didn't prepare his son as good as he could have for the situation and Piccolo had to inform him of it because Goku thought Gohan was like him, someone who just enjoyed the thrill of the battle. Goku does the same thing with Goten and Trunks. Yes they should have learned how to fuse but another option would have been to use the Namek Dragonballs. Goku helped free Buu, Buu did not come to Earth looking for Goku, he could have just as easily have come back and used SSJ3 with fusion being the back up plan. Goku makes selfish and bad choices the same as Vegeta. To me you just describe a bad person by putting a good fight before protecting people. Goku luckily knows to protect his friends a little better but Vegeta does the same thing with Cell. Vegeta didn't let Cell go perfect because he's bad he does so because he thought he would still win and Cell would be gone and then he could focus on Goku. Goku also admits he's selfish when he spares Vegeta it's just luck that it worked out in the end.

Chi-Chi being around doesn't mean she isn't parenting Bra. Also it's said in the U16 specials Vegito takes Bra and Pan with him to police the universe from time to time.

Once again Bra is not as strong willed and Vegeta and Cell. On other people like Pui-Pui, Yakon and even Dabra let alone the people in the comic Babidi changes their character, even Bardock became a lap dog. Also I never said Bra was a good person I said it is Babidi making her kill her family without remorse. I never forgot Goku's motives, once again I said Goku made bad choices not the wrong choices. I keep bringing up Goku and Vegeta becasue we are shown how a saiyan trying to be better works and we are shown how saiyan that starts Evil and slowly becomes good acts. Bra is a teenager and Bra acts like Vegeta did. I NEVER SAID BRA WASN'T A BAD PERSON, SHE'S horrible.

She wanted Gohan to block her attack to get an opening, trying to blow up the Earth and bluffing someone you know is going to prevent it is different. Firstly she's 6, secondly that's how Vegito is teaching her to win, Gotenks almost did something similar with Buu.

Gohan can only influence her so much before Vegito shuts him down. If Vegito cuts Gohan off from Bra becasue he doesn't like what Gohan is teaching her what can Gohan do? You can have the best brother in the world, if your Dad is putting bad influences on you and you think that's the way to act and your Mom doesn't say anything your going to ignore a lot of what your Brother is teaching you. Bra wasn't trying to nuke her home she is trying to beat Gohan, her move is counting on Gohan blocking it, if Gohan doesn't stop her attack she's going to be upset about that. Goten and Trunks almost leveled the Budokai arena against 18.

Their kids they make mistakes.

That was Majin Vegeta who is trying to be Evil to get a fight with Goku. Vegito threatens Pan to try and get a fight with Gohan. Killing people you don't know is evil but with Vegeta he is trying to do this, Vegito thinks of doing this to his own family for a spar with his Son that he knows doesn't eant to fight. Goku would never do this and Vegeta was content on Earth when he thought Goku was gone forever. We see Vegito chocking Gohan and we know Bra says "When my father gets like this." he's done something similar before and wanted to attack Gohan for telling him he lost in this torument.

Vegeta doesn't have to mention his plan at tha time, Vegeta mentions it later, Goku mentions later he could have beat Buu. What Vegeta says later changes how we view an earlier scene. Vegeta argbuly knew where everyone was, notice how he gets close to Bulma but misses her, and later Goku says he hasn't forgtten about Bulma and Trunks. Vegeta himself says he had settled down with his family. Goku threatend Shin because he wanted to fight Vegeta as bad as Vegeta wanted to fight him, Goku just knows not to go about the way Vegeta does. Goku could have went SSJ3 then and put Vegeta down quick.

Vegeta beign selfish doesn't make him evil, it makes him bad and selfish the same way wanting the TOP doesn't make Goku evil. These characters aren't Balck and white they have shades of grey. Vegeta overestimates himself, that doesn't mean he's evil. He's stupid, cocky, arogant and bad but not Evil. Also a Hero antagonist which Vegeta isn't by the way he's an anti-hero is not Evil. They are heroes who are bad guys or will do bad things to see the heores win. Kami also says Piccolo is starting to change, you can't go for Evil to good instantly but even in the early DBZ Goku says Piccolo isn't about bad as his Dad which is wasn't. Once again Vegeta is bad not evil, he refuses to serve Babidi and Buu had to power up twice for Vegeta to relize how bad his meseed up. Vegeta still thinks Gohan can beat Buu at first and later he thinks he can beat Buu to attone. Evil people don't think to attone, Bad people do. Future Trunks dying is what ultimately broke Vegeta for the better.

How can you be an active parent and emotionally distant, if your emotionally distant this yes the other parent is doing the majority of the racing. Trunks acts like a normal kid showing Bulma is rasing him, Vegeta hangs out with him when its time to train. Bulma is always being shown trying to get Vegeta to play a more active part in Trunks's life. Like I said before emotinally distant to us and what Trunks thinks is good are two different things. As for Bra that's fine she has a support system but Gohan was brought up completely differently then Bra. We know Piccolo has had more time with Gohan then he would have had with Bra and Vegito considers himself a God so Bra problay thinks she and her Dad are just as or more important then Dende. Bra clearly doesn't have the same relationship with her extended family as Gohan did growing up. And yes she's never experinced what Gohan, Goten and Trunks did which is why she doesn't appericate what she has the way they do. She is spoiled and arogant. We did she she was hurt when Pan was killed however.

I never said Vegito doesn't love her, he doesn't love her the way a Father should, abusive people claim to love their victums and problay do in some sick way.

Because she is a 6 year old kid that doesn't know any better and was fighting her Brother who she knew would stop the blast. Someone has to teach her why that's wrong, It's the same way kids play with guns when their little and shoot their family.

King Piccolo used his kids as minons and cared because someone was taking out his army, Bardock is not evil he's bad. Bardock is a soilder who is being paid to do a job, yes what he is doing is Evil but he isn't getting up to kill innocents for pleasure the way Frieza does. The show also says that Piccolo is in the middle of changing during the time and Gohan was the first time he made a truly noble decisions.

She was 6 not nine and she wanted him to block the blast to win a fight.

Vegeta is an anti hero, a hero-antagonist is L from Death Note. Whis is true netural, Bra is a chaotic netural in the sense that she does Good and Bad. Ultimately she is an anti hero.

And again You can be Bad and not Evil. Frieza is Evil, Saiyan saga Vegeta is evil. Buu saga Vegeta is bad but not Evil.

And Please stop telling me to re-read the Cell and Buu saga.

[jjgp1112]

miguelnova: Vegeta killed 200 people to get a fight with Goku. He didn't think about it, he didn't suggest it, he actually went and did it. There's no black and white distinction between "evil" and "bad" based solely on whether somebody has remorse or awareness of their actions. Vegeta may not have been pure evil but he definitely had plenty of unresolved evil in his heart - up until the Buu saga, he never once showed any real improvement in his behavior, just found people he cares about. Because he's a three dimensional character and not a low-functioning cartoon supervillian he can behave himself and live a peaceful life even while still being a pretty shit-tier persion.

Evil people can have loved ones.

Evil people can regret their actions.

A standard "bad" person certainly doesn't decide he needs to team up with an evil wizard and kill 200 innocent people (not even considering if Bulma would've been in the sections he blasted) just to satisfy a grudge.

You can't really compare Vegeta and Vegito anyway. Goku's death caused Vegeta to lose his desire to fight, and so the various neuroses that fuel Vegeta's nefarious behavior were probably on the backburner anyway. That all it took for Vegeta to veer all the way off of the slippery slope was seeing Goku effortlessly outsmart and kill Yakon says everything you need to know about him at that point in time. On the flipside,

Vegito's desire to fight is the central aspect of his character and why he behaves as he does - and as Salagir himself pointed out, another factor in Vegito's personality is that the Vegeta that's part of him didn't undergo that extra bit of character development that finally redeemed him. He was still salty and insecure about Goku by that point. Only the two people he cared about influenced his actions.

And hell, if you go off of the movie version of Resurrection F, even a "reformed" Vegeta still has some residual awfulness - he was content to let Goku die and rejected Frieza's alliance offer not because it was the right thing to do, but because he was still salty about Frieza cheating him out of Kinghood by destroying Planet Vegeta

[miguelnuva1]

miguelnova: Vegeta killed 200 people to get a fight with Goku. He didn't think about it, he didn't suggest it, he actually went and did it. There's no black and white distinction between "evil" and "bad" based solely on whether somebody has remorse or awareness of their actions. Vegeta may not have been pure evil but he definitely had plenty of unresolved evil in his heart - up until the Buu saga, he never once showed any real improvement in his behavior, just found people he cares about. Because he's a three dimensional character and not a low-functioning cartoon supervillian he can behave himself and live a peaceful life even while still being a pretty shit-tier person.

Evil people can have loved ones.

Evil people can regret their actions.

A standard "bad" person certainly doesn't decide he needs to team up with an evil wizard and kill 200 innocent people (not even considering if Bulma would've been in the sections he blasted) just to satisfy a grudge.

You can't really compare Vegeta and Vegito anyway. Goku's death caused Vegeta to lose his desire to fight, and so the various neuroses that fuel Vegeta's nefarious behavior were probably on the backburner anyway. That all it took for Vegeta to veer all the way off of the slippery slope was seeing Goku effortlessly outsmart and kill Yakon says everything you need to know about him at that point in time. On the flipside,

Vegito's desire to fight is the central aspect of his character and why he behaves as he does - and as Salagir himself pointed out, another factor in Vegito's personality is that the Vegeta that's part of him didn't undergo that extra bit of character development that finally redeemed him. He was still salty and insecure about Goku by that point. Only the two people he cared about influenced his actions.

And hell, if you go off of the movie version of Resurrection F, even a "reformed" Vegeta still has some residual awfulness - he was content to let Goku die and rejected Frieza's alliance offer not because it was the right thing to do, but because he was still salty about Frieza cheating him out of Kinghood by destroying Planet Vegeta

Yes Majin Vegeta who is trying to prove that he is Evil again, not Pre Majin Vegeta who I say isn't evil. Majin Vegeta is going to do bad stuff trying to prove he's gone back to his saiyan saga ways where he was Evil. As for Bulma the fact that Vegeta didn't hit her and later Gok calls him out on his emotions leads me to believe Vegeta missed her on purpose. Vegeta killed people he didn't know or care about to bluff Goku and knew the Dragonballs would come into to play.

As for Vegeta's reformation yes he and Goku are still not goodie two shoes. The fact they don't start off fights as Gogeta going forward shows that their selfish need to fight to win and on their own over powers that sense of making sure no threats harm their family. Letting Frieza do as he pleases is another thing.

My argument is that Bra acts like all saiyans we've seen expect Goku and Babidi is amplifying her worse traits. A non Majin Bra would kill her family like this.

Vegeta changed enough for me that I wouldn't call him Evil post Namek, an asshole yes, cruel and abusive yes, but not Evil otherwise he wouldn't have been trying to so hard to reawaken the Evil in his heart. As you said his three dimensional so there's evil there but he is no longer evil.

And for my own improvement what truly characters we you say feel Love and remorse?

[HeroR]

Frieza is Evil, Buu Saga Vegeta is not. Buu Saga Vegeta married Bulma, is living with his family and even promised Trunks to take him to the park. Vegeta is not a good character but he is far from Evil. Vegeta is trying to be Evil becasue he thinks that's where is true power is which Goku calls him out on. Goku put his 9 year old son in a fight for his life yes it was needed to save the Earth but Piccolo calls him out on it. Later he chooses to fight Vegeta fairly and not use SSJ3 and then he chooses not to destroy Buu with SSJ3. Goku and Vegeta are both bad characters with Goku even stated to be a bad person by Toriyama.

Bra does not have the same family network as the other half saiyans, Vegito is her dad not Goku or Vegeta and as you said post Buu saga Vegeta is better than the Vegeta that fused with Goku. Gohan is her brother, she has no Chi-Chi influence and becasue Vegito has her running around the universe she isn't even on Earth that much. Vegito basically acts like its my way or no way where Goku and Vegeta let their wives have full control over the children.

You seem to be not understanding why I brought up Tommy. I'm using Tommy to show how much power someone can have over you with Mind control. Just becasue Majin Bra is saying she's happy that she gets to kill her family doesn't mean its true if she is fully under control. Bra can be a bad person and still have a good character which is what Vegeta was in the Buu saga and Goku is to a lesser extant.

Bra being a bad person doesn't mean she would kill her family given the chance without the majin curse.

Once again Gohan is her brother, Vegito is her father. If your father is giving you what you want and your brother is trying to teach you right which results in not being fun who are you going to listen to the most. Gohan is parenting her, Vegito is almost like a big friend.

Vegito called his 6 year old child a brat, he is flying around so he can fight people not becasue he's a hero, threatens Gohan to a fight and attacks Bardock and Cold when he lost a fight and didn't know what was going on. When Gohan calls him out on being a Brat he admits himself he wanted to attack Gohan. We also know that Vegito is going to flash and attack Gohan under his own free power and Vegito is fused from the Vegeta you say is so bad. Vegeta admits that he was going to use the Dragonballs later and we know saiayns don't see things rational like humans do. Vegeta says he would do anything to get Goku to fight him, Goku was also about to kill supreme kai to fight Vegeta.

Vegeta sitting on Earth for 7 years in peace, agreeing to not go ssj, marrying Bulma, helping against Babidi till he got desperate shows he's come a long way. he wasn't a hero-antagonist he was an anti hero.

Trunks is better off becasue Vegeta took a back seat to Bulma. Bra being stronger is a problem because more power makes you less likely to see people weaker than you as people, Vegito took Bra to planets in the middle of the war and installed more saiyan traits in her than Vegeta did in Trunks. I didn't touch on Gohan because Gohan had good mother, an good dad and a second dad/ big brother type figure that helped him grow. Trunks grew up in mostly peace times as well expect Buu and Trunks knew his Dad loved him despite what Vegeta may have shown. Their training shows that is how Vegeta bonds. Vegeta not hugging Trunks has to do with us as humans knowing that is a cold parenting style, to a saiyan like Vegeta and Trunks, Trunks could be happy just knowing his Dad is there.

Bra is a bad person but there is a difference between being bad and killing your family, there are plenty of bad people that grow up and change or they're bad but still love their family. Something is happening in her mind that is telling now it's ok to attack and kill her family. Also that seems like a jump to say Gohan and Vegito are the only reasons she didn't already kill her family, this is the same girl that wanted revenge for Pan being killed for one.

Bra is a neutral character and she acts like Vegeta in his worst heroic days but hes not evil to the way Frieza or Cell were. She needs a humbling which is why I wish U18 Goku could fight her and win, but when you have a bad parent enforcing your bad actions this is how you end up. She could have been saiyan saga Vegeta.

Just because Vegeta isn’t as evil as Freeza or as he used to be doesn’t mean that he isn’t an evil person. And what does Vegeta being marry have to do with anything? Evil people can get marry. And he wasn’t trying when he had no issue killing people to provoke Goku.

As for Goku. He put his son to fight Cell because he literally had no choice. No one else could beat Cell. So it was either Gohan fight or everyone dies. Where Goku went wrong was not telling Gohan this and not understanding that Gohan didn’t like to fight. Agree with Super Saiyan 3, but that actually showed Goku cared too much about Vegeta’s feelings, not him being a bad person. That and Goku didn’t kill Buu because he wanted to next generation to do it since they couldn’t rely on them to save him since he was dead, something both Goku and Piccolo agreed on. Seriously, did you watch the Buu Saga because this point was explained several times. And Toriyama never said Goku was a bad person. He said Goku wasn’t a traditional hero because he will put a good fight before protecting people. Although those things doesn’t make Goku a bad person. Just a selfish person and even that’s downplayed since Goku clearly got stronger to protect his friends from the Saiyans and don’t want his friends to depend on him forever so he tries to train successors.

It’s the same outside of Vegito. And Chichi is clearly around despite Bra not being her daughter. We even see her in the Special after Bra leaves the HTC. And where was it said that she wasn’t on Earth that much?

You’re using two different shows to justify Bra. Rita’s mind-control isn’t Babidi’s mind-control, so it makes no sense to bring it up. Especially when we have examples of people fighting off the Majin charm, while no is shown fighting mind control in Power Rangers. Also, Babidi’s magic only works if there is something rotten already there as U18 Bra states. And trying to drag Goku into this because you ignore or forgot Goku’s motives in both the Cell and Buu Saga, both cases was him actually trying to save people in the long run, and twist what Toriyama said about Goku to say Bra just being a bad person and Vegeta was than just bad.

She already tried to kill her family once when she tried to blow up the Earth as a kid to beat Gohan in a sparring match. The only reason she didn’t is because Gohan stopped her. She wasn’t even sorry about it afterwards.

What does it matter? Gohan has clear influence over Bra and even taught her how to go Super Saiyan. To dismiss that influence because ‘Gohan is only her brother’ is nuts, especially in a show about family of choice. The fact is, Bra has too many positive influence characters in her life for her to that mess up. I can see her being spoiled, arrogant in her power, and even dismissive of those outside of her family, but it makes no sense why she’s so out there that she can nearly nuke her own home and not even regret trying to do it.

And Vegito is still a better person than Buu Saga Vegeta because Vegito didn’t blow up a stadium to provoke someone to fight. And we don’t know under what conditions those events of the future will happened, so that’s assumptions on your part.

Vegeta literally never said anything about using thr Dragon Balls later. So to say the least, you’re making stuff up or misremembering the Buu Saga. And Goku only threatened the Supreme Kai after Vegeta shot at the audience twice and killed thousands of people. Then Vegeta gave Goku a choice. Fight him or he will keep killing people, and keep in mind Goku’s wife and friends were in the stadium so Vegeta could have easily killed them. In fact, his second blast nearly hit Bulma. So this is again you ignoring context as to why Goku threatened Shin.

Those things doesn’t make Vegeta not evil since Freeza also agreed to the no-kill rule of the TOP and was still very evil. Abs you’re once again misremembering the Buu Saga. He only helped against Babidi because he wanted things done fast so he could fight Goku, not because he actually gave a damn and didn’t even want to go until Goku said he was leaving. The moment things started to drag, he was going to blow up Babidi’s spaceship despite the Supreme Kai’s warnings that he could wake Buu and Vegeta outright saying he doesn’t give a damn. He was a hero-antagonist. Only went along with being good because it served his needs, and betrayed everyone the moment things didn’t go his way. And Vegeta decided after the fight with Yakon that he was going to sell his soul, which was before he even lost patience. Just because Vegeta wasn’t as much as a piece of shit doesn’t mean he wasn’t evil. Just less evil like Saiyan Saga Piccolo. Who Kami said was still evil despite Goku and Vegeta being allowed to pass into the Afterlife.

This is a lot of assumption that Vegeta took a backseat to Bulma since such a thing was never stated nor shown in the manga or even the anime. The only things we know was that Vegeta was emotionally distant and he never hugged his son. And her being very strong is a poor excuse when Gohan was the strongest being in the universe at nine years old. And Bra has a good mom, several brothers, an honorary uncle in Piccolo, god himself in Denda, and her grandparents on her mother’s side. She actually has more people than Gohan outside of a better father. And because of Buu and Trunks being on the frontlines and learning that his dad was killed put him above Bra who never experienced anything remotely similar. She’s a wannabe warrior who didn’t experience even a tenth of the hardships that the other Hydrids suffered.

And Bra knows Vegito lover despite his issues especially after the events with Ginyu, so what’s even your point? It was never even implied that Bra believes that Vegito doesn’t love her.


And she tried to willfully kill her family before along with the planet and never felt remorse for trying to do it. She only apologized because she was forced too and it wasn’t sincere.

You can be an evil person and still have love ones. King Piccolo was literally pure evil, yet even he cared for his children and went out of his way to avenge them. Toei’s Bardock is a evil person who happily committed genocide and he cares for his crew and race. You don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil. Especially when the show itself said Saiyan Saga Piccolo was still evil until he threw himself in front of Nappa’s blast.

And Gohan is literally the only reason she didn’t blow up the planet when she was nine. So it isn’t a stretch at all when it actually happened in the Special.

Bra is anything but neutral the same with Vegeta. Vegeta was the definition of hero-antagonist in the Cell and to a lesser extent the Buu Saga. A neutral character would be someone like Whis who can’t get massively involved in any event unless he gets something bad for the most part just watch the show. Neutral characters by their definition don’t push the plot, something both Bra and Vegeta massively do. They just react to events.

And again, you don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil.

Evil people arguably can't truly feel love for one thing, there is a difference between Evil and being Bad which is what the difference between Frieza and Vegeta are. Proviking Goku was also when Vegeta got the evil he wanted brought back out in his heart where he is putting on an act for Goku, which Goku later calls him out on. Majin Vegeta is trying to be evil and try to be like the old Vegeta and Goku tells him he's changed. Later he feels remorse for what happens to Gohan. Vegeta is a bad person that makes a lot of bad choices but Evil doesnt feel remorse for their actions. Light from Death Note was more evil then Vegeta.

I never said Goku made the wrong choice with Gohan, I said he made a bad choice. Yes Gohan was the only one who could beat Cell and yes it worked out in the end but Goku didn't prepare his son as good as he could have for the situation and Piccolo had to inform him of it because Goku thought Gohan was like him, someone who just enjoyed the thrill of the battle. Goku does the same thing with Goten and Trunks. Yes they should have learned how to fuse but another option would have been to use the Namek Dragonballs. Goku helped free Buu, Buu did not come to Earth looking for Goku, he could have just as easily have come back and used SSJ3 with fusion being the back up plan. Goku makes selfish and bad choices the same as Vegeta. To me you just describe a bad person by putting a good fight before protecting people. Goku luckily knows to protect his friends a little better but Vegeta does the same thing with Cell. Vegeta didn't let Cell go perfect because he's bad he does so because he thought he would still win and Cell would be gone and then he could focus on Goku. Goku also admits he's selfish when he spares Vegeta it's just luck that it worked out in the end.

Chi-Chi being around doesn't mean she isn't parenting Bra. Also it's said in the U16 specials Vegito takes Bra and Pan with him to police the universe from time to time.

Once again Bra is not as strong willed and Vegeta and Cell. On other people like Pui-Pui, Yakon and even Dabra let alone the people in the comic Babidi changes their character, even Bardock became a lap dog. Also I never said Bra was a good person I said it is Babidi making her kill her family without remorse. I never forgot Goku's motives, once again I said Goku made bad choices not the wrong choices. I keep bringing up Goku and Vegeta becasue we are shown how a saiyan trying to be better works and we are shown how saiyan that starts Evil and slowly becomes good acts. Bra is a teenager and Bra acts like Vegeta did. I NEVER SAID BRA WASN'T A BAD PERSON, SHE'S horrible.

She wanted Gohan to block her attack to get an opening, trying to blow up the Earth and bluffing someone you know is going to prevent it is different. Firstly she's 6, secondly that's how Vegito is teaching her to win, Gotenks almost did something similar with Buu.

Gohan can only influence her so much before Vegito shuts him down. If Vegito cuts Gohan off from Bra becasue he doesn't like what Gohan is teaching her what can Gohan do? You can have the best brother in the world, if your Dad is putting bad influences on you and you think that's the way to act and your Mom doesn't say anything your going to ignore a lot of what your Brother is teaching you. Bra wasn't trying to nuke her home she is trying to beat Gohan, her move is counting on Gohan blocking it, if Gohan doesn't stop her attack she's going to be upset about that. Goten and Trunks almost leveled the Budokai arena against 18.

Their kids they make mistakes.

That was Majin Vegeta who is trying to be Evil to get a fight with Goku. Vegito threatens Pan to try and get a fight with Gohan. Killing people you don't know is evil but with Vegeta he is trying to do this, Vegito thinks of doing this to his own family for a spar with his Son that he knows doesn't eant to fight. Goku would never do this and Vegeta was content on Earth when he thought Goku was gone forever. We see Vegito chocking Gohan and we know Bra says "When my father gets like this." he's done something similar before and wanted to attack Gohan for telling him he lost in this torument.

Vegeta doesn't have to mention his plan at tha time, Vegeta mentions it later, Goku mentions later he could have beat Buu. What Vegeta says later changes how we view an earlier scene. Vegeta argbuly knew where everyone was, notice how he gets close to Bulma but misses her, and later Goku says he hasn't forgtten about Bulma and Trunks. Vegeta himself says he had settled down with his family. Goku threatend Shin because he wanted to fight Vegeta as bad as Vegeta wanted to fight him, Goku just knows not to go about the way Vegeta does. Goku could have went SSJ3 then and put Vegeta down quick.

Vegeta beign selfish doesn't make him evil, it makes him bad and selfish the same way wanting the TOP doesn't make Goku evil. These characters aren't Balck and white they have shades of grey. Vegeta overestimates himself, that doesn't mean he's evil. He's stupid, cocky, arogant and bad but not Evil. Also a Hero antagonist which Vegeta isn't by the way he's an anti-hero is not Evil. They are heroes who are bad guys or will do bad things to see the heores win. Kami also says Piccolo is starting to change, you can't go for Evil to good instantly but even in the early DBZ Goku says Piccolo isn't about bad as his Dad which is wasn't. Once again Vegeta is bad not evil, he refuses to serve Babidi and Buu had to power up twice for Vegeta to relize how bad his meseed up. Vegeta still thinks Gohan can beat Buu at first and later he thinks he can beat Buu to attone. Evil people don't think to attone, Bad people do. Future Trunks dying is what ultimately broke Vegeta for the better.

How can you be an active parent and emotionally distant, if your emotionally distant this yes the other parent is doing the majority of the racing. Trunks acts like a normal kid showing Bulma is rasing him, Vegeta hangs out with him when its time to train. Bulma is always being shown trying to get Vegeta to play a more active part in Trunks's life. Like I said before emotinally distant to us and what Trunks thinks is good are two different things. As for Bra that's fine she has a support system but Gohan was brought up completely differently then Bra. We know Piccolo has had more time with Gohan then he would have had with Bra and Vegito considers himself a God so Bra problay thinks she and her Dad are just as or more important then Dende. Bra clearly doesn't have the same relationship with her extended family as Gohan did growing up. And yes she's never experinced what Gohan, Goten and Trunks did which is why she doesn't appericate what she has the way they do. She is spoiled and arogant. We did she she was hurt when Pan was killed however.

I never said Vegito doesn't love her, he doesn't love her the way a Father should, abusive people claim to love their victums and problay do in some sick way.

Because she is a 6 year old kid that doesn't know any better and was fighting her Brother who she knew would stop the blast. Someone has to teach her why that's wrong, It's the same way kids play with guns when their little and shoot their family.

King Piccolo used his kids as minons and cared because someone was taking out his army, Bardock is not evil he's bad. Bardock is a soilder who is being paid to do a job, yes what he is doing is Evil but he isn't getting up to kill innocents for pleasure the way Frieza does. The show also says that Piccolo is in the middle of changing during the time and Gohan was the first time he made a truly noble decisions.

She was 6 not nine and she wanted him to block the blast to win a fight.

Vegeta is an anti hero, a hero-antagonist is L from Death Note. Whis is true netural, Bra is a chaotic netural in the sense that she does Good and Bad. Ultimately she is an anti hero.

And again You can be Bad and not Evil. Frieza is Evil, Saiyan saga Vegeta is evil. Buu saga Vegeta is bad but not Evil.

And Please stop telling me to re-read the Cell and Buu saga.

Since jjgp1112 addressed several points, I won't address all of this.

But I will add, you can be evil and have love ones. That isn't arguable at all since we have science in real life that tells us that you can be an evil person and still have love ones. What you're thinking is a sociopath who aren't even necessary evil either. Overall, Vegeta was trying to be evil. He was evil since he sold his soul for power and then murdered a bunch of people.

Bad choices don't make someone a 'bad person'. That just mean they made a bad choice. And he doesn't do the same thing with Goten and Trunks since he wasn't even the one who suggested that they saved the world with Fusion. That was Mr. Popo and Piccolo agreed with both of them. Again, did you watched the Buu Saga?

What kind of logic is that? Making bad or selfish choices doesn't mean someone is a bad. By that definition, no one is good and everyone is a bad person. And Vegeta didn't give a damn about Trunks until Cell put a hole in his chest. How is that even remotely comparable to Goku?

Ah, yeah it was Vegeta being very bad because Cell has to literally eat a person to become complete. This wasn't like Goku letting Freeza power up on Namek so he could kick his ass at full power. This was Vegeta letting Cell kill someone because he was having an ego trip and mocked his son when he told him he was being a moron to the point that Trunks rightfully blasted him.

She's still around even if she isn't Bra's parent, which is my point. She even went to see her after she left the HTC, showing that she cared for the girl. And Vegito takes Pan across the universe....who somehow doesn't get messed up in the head by Bra does despite Pan being younger and more impressionable? I don't think you realized what you wrote.

Here's the thing, people enslaved under Babidi keep their personalties. They don't become evil, they were already rotten. Let's take Spoopavich who happily beat the shit out of Videl because her father beat him at the last tournament. He was over the top cruel and tortured the girl without Babidi telling him jack despite being completely under his control. It's the same with Bra. Even if we say she's under Babidi's control, her personality is intact and she wants to hurt her family the same way Spoopavich wanted to hurt Videl. And it matches her personality even before mind-control since I can't repeat this enough, she tried to blow up the planet to beat Gohan in a sparring match and she never regret doing it. And we don't know enough about Pui-Pui, Yakon and even Dabra to say that Babidi changed them since we never met them before they were mind-controlled. And even the people in the comic didn't have their personality changed. They just obeyed Babidi.

This isn't about 'Saiyans'. Humans make bad and stupid choices, so why are we bringing species into this. And this isn't about Bra making 'bad choice', she willfully tried to destroy her own home to win a sparring match that she started. That and Bra is a half-Saiyan, so why are we trying to pretend that she a pure Saiyan who 'she starts out evil' when have seen other hybrids and none of them act like her.

That about as much as a 'bluff' as Vegeta saying he was going to nuke the Earth if Goku dodged after he made him bleed. They're both evil acts even if we say Bra expected Gohan to block. And a blast that can nuke a planet during a sparring match isn't something to downplay even if she thought Gohan was going to deflect it.

But Vegito didn't, so why are you bringing that up? In fact, Vegito raged quit Bra, which is why Gohan had to step in. And we have seen people in real life that have horrible, horrible parents far worst than Vegito who turned out okay because they had other people supporting them rather it was a sibling, uncle, grandparents, of even the neighbors. So don't give me 'her dad was a bad influence, so it totally justifies her being a bitch'. Heck, I have someone in my family who's like that and it annoys me that people act like one horrible influence dictates someone's entire life if they have other people around them that care. And we haven't seen enough of Bulma to say, 'she says nothing'.

Also, no. Goten and Trunks didn't almost leveled the Budokai arena against 18. Seriously, did you watched the Buu Saga since to be frank, you appear to be making up a bunch of stuff to prove your point. And even if they did, nearly blowing up an arena is hardly comparable to trying to destroy the planet and trying to downplay it with 'well, she would have felt sorry about it later' like she's that child who stole candy from the store.

How does Bra being a kid justifies her trying to blow up the planet?

And Vegeta again wasn't trying. He murdered people with a grin on his face. That is nowhere the same as Vegito making threat towards Pan since one acted on their threat when the other one didn't. And killing people period is evil unless it's in self defense or to protect someone. It isn't like Vegeta is less evil because he killed a bunch of strangers, and Vegito again didn't even go through with it.

So you're basically talking out of your butt about Vegeta wanting to used the Dragon Balls to revived his victims. And no, Vegeta didn't mentioned it later as if that was always he planned since he only decided to revived the people of Earth so they could create the Spirit Bomb. And this was all after Vegeta got several critical development such as his sacrifice, merging with Goku, and admitting that Goku was better than him. Things that Majin Vegeta didn't have, so it's nuts to assumed that he was always going to revived the people he murdered.

There is no comparison between what Vegata did and Goku asking for a tournament from Zeno. Goku didn't asked Zeno to blow up the losing universes. Zeno did it himself. The tournament wasn't even Goku's idea, it was Zeno's and Goku just reminded him of it. Seriously, stopped trying to drag Goku into this to downplay Vegeta's evil acts.

Buu Saga Vegeta was evil, just not as evil as before. And heroes who are bad people are called hero antagonist like Light from Death Note, not anti-heroes. An anti-hero is someone like Batman or Iron Man who doesn't questionable and shady stuff, but is firmly on the side of good.

Starting to change, but still evil, which is Vegeta through the last half of Z. And this is Dragon Ball. People go from evil to good easily for the most part like Buu went from a murderous man child to swearing to never to kill in the span of an afternoon. Same with Tien swearing off becoming an assassin and killing Goku. Vegeta was the exception, not the rule. And Piccolo not being as bad as his dad doesn't mean he wasn't evil. Just that he wasn't as bad as his dad. Which is like saying, Nappa isn't evil because he isn't as bad as Vegeta.

Nothing in Z nor the manga said Vegeta was an active parent. Only that he trained Trunks, which you can do while being emotionally distance if you ever went to a martial arts school. Vegito isn't emotionless distance since he's more like Goku in that aspect, but nothing showed that he was really an active parent since Vegito was out in space being a cop while Bra nearly blew up the planet and then rage quit when Bra got on his nerves.

We don't know how much time Piccolo did or didn't have with Bra. You're making assumptions here. And Vegito doesn't considered himself a god. He's worship like a god, there is a difference. And why would that apply to Bra since she's weaker than her dad and Gohan. Vegito's the god, not his daughter and she's never treated as one.

Vegito isn't abusive towards Bra. If anything, he's strict enough since she should have gotten more than a cool off period in the HTC and sparring match with Gotenks for nearly nuking the planet. In fact, not even the comic claimed that Vegito is abusive.

So she's six. How old was Gohan? Heck, Goten was seven with the power to destroy several planets and he didn't act like that. And she's raised by a circle of superpower beings. What do you mean she doesn't know any better? Goten knew better and he was only a year younger than her.

Despite using them as minions, he still clearly cared for them and went out of his way to avenge them. He even talks about how horrible it felt when his kids died. He also treated Piano extremely well. Bardock is evil. He killed innocent people without a care. That is no excusing 'he's a soldiers' when he murdered people that couldn't fight back either. Like a soldier is evil if they go into a village full of men, women, and children and burn it down. The 'we were just following orders' doesn't work as the Nazi found out. And it wasn't just following orders either since Bardock admitted to liking all the work he was doing under Freeza. You seem to have this thing that a person can't be evil unless they're like Freeza.

Again, what does that matter when Goten was seven and didn't act like that?

Bra isn't chaotic neutral, that Zen Buu. Bra is just a hero-antagonist. She tries to do good, but it's mostly a front because she doesn't want to do it and looks down on the people she's protecting as inferior to her.

And you need to reread those sagas since you don't seem to remember them very well. Or you're a very dishonest person.

[miguelnuva1]

Just because Vegeta isn’t as evil as Freeza or as he used to be doesn’t mean that he isn’t an evil person. And what does Vegeta being marry have to do with anything? Evil people can get marry. And he wasn’t trying when he had no issue killing people to provoke Goku.

As for Goku. He put his son to fight Cell because he literally had no choice. No one else could beat Cell. So it was either Gohan fight or everyone dies. Where Goku went wrong was not telling Gohan this and not understanding that Gohan didn’t like to fight. Agree with Super Saiyan 3, but that actually showed Goku cared too much about Vegeta’s feelings, not him being a bad person. That and Goku didn’t kill Buu because he wanted to next generation to do it since they couldn’t rely on them to save him since he was dead, something both Goku and Piccolo agreed on. Seriously, did you watch the Buu Saga because this point was explained several times. And Toriyama never said Goku was a bad person. He said Goku wasn’t a traditional hero because he will put a good fight before protecting people. Although those things doesn’t make Goku a bad person. Just a selfish person and even that’s downplayed since Goku clearly got stronger to protect his friends from the Saiyans and don’t want his friends to depend on him forever so he tries to train successors.

It’s the same outside of Vegito. And Chichi is clearly around despite Bra not being her daughter. We even see her in the Special after Bra leaves the HTC. And where was it said that she wasn’t on Earth that much?

You’re using two different shows to justify Bra. Rita’s mind-control isn’t Babidi’s mind-control, so it makes no sense to bring it up. Especially when we have examples of people fighting off the Majin charm, while no is shown fighting mind control in Power Rangers. Also, Babidi’s magic only works if there is something rotten already there as U18 Bra states. And trying to drag Goku into this because you ignore or forgot Goku’s motives in both the Cell and Buu Saga, both cases was him actually trying to save people in the long run, and twist what Toriyama said about Goku to say Bra just being a bad person and Vegeta was than just bad.

She already tried to kill her family once when she tried to blow up the Earth as a kid to beat Gohan in a sparring match. The only reason she didn’t is because Gohan stopped her. She wasn’t even sorry about it afterwards.

What does it matter? Gohan has clear influence over Bra and even taught her how to go Super Saiyan. To dismiss that influence because ‘Gohan is only her brother’ is nuts, especially in a show about family of choice. The fact is, Bra has too many positive influence characters in her life for her to that mess up. I can see her being spoiled, arrogant in her power, and even dismissive of those outside of her family, but it makes no sense why she’s so out there that she can nearly nuke her own home and not even regret trying to do it.

And Vegito is still a better person than Buu Saga Vegeta because Vegito didn’t blow up a stadium to provoke someone to fight. And we don’t know under what conditions those events of the future will happened, so that’s assumptions on your part.

Vegeta literally never said anything about using thr Dragon Balls later. So to say the least, you’re making stuff up or misremembering the Buu Saga. And Goku only threatened the Supreme Kai after Vegeta shot at the audience twice and killed thousands of people. Then Vegeta gave Goku a choice. Fight him or he will keep killing people, and keep in mind Goku’s wife and friends were in the stadium so Vegeta could have easily killed them. In fact, his second blast nearly hit Bulma. So this is again you ignoring context as to why Goku threatened Shin.

Those things doesn’t make Vegeta not evil since Freeza also agreed to the no-kill rule of the TOP and was still very evil. Abs you’re once again misremembering the Buu Saga. He only helped against Babidi because he wanted things done fast so he could fight Goku, not because he actually gave a damn and didn’t even want to go until Goku said he was leaving. The moment things started to drag, he was going to blow up Babidi’s spaceship despite the Supreme Kai’s warnings that he could wake Buu and Vegeta outright saying he doesn’t give a damn. He was a hero-antagonist. Only went along with being good because it served his needs, and betrayed everyone the moment things didn’t go his way. And Vegeta decided after the fight with Yakon that he was going to sell his soul, which was before he even lost patience. Just because Vegeta wasn’t as much as a piece of shit doesn’t mean he wasn’t evil. Just less evil like Saiyan Saga Piccolo. Who Kami said was still evil despite Goku and Vegeta being allowed to pass into the Afterlife.

This is a lot of assumption that Vegeta took a backseat to Bulma since such a thing was never stated nor shown in the manga or even the anime. The only things we know was that Vegeta was emotionally distant and he never hugged his son. And her being very strong is a poor excuse when Gohan was the strongest being in the universe at nine years old. And Bra has a good mom, several brothers, an honorary uncle in Piccolo, god himself in Denda, and her grandparents on her mother’s side. She actually has more people than Gohan outside of a better father. And because of Buu and Trunks being on the frontlines and learning that his dad was killed put him above Bra who never experienced anything remotely similar. She’s a wannabe warrior who didn’t experience even a tenth of the hardships that the other Hydrids suffered.

And Bra knows Vegito lover despite his issues especially after the events with Ginyu, so what’s even your point? It was never even implied that Bra believes that Vegito doesn’t love her.


And she tried to willfully kill her family before along with the planet and never felt remorse for trying to do it. She only apologized because she was forced too and it wasn’t sincere.

You can be an evil person and still have love ones. King Piccolo was literally pure evil, yet even he cared for his children and went out of his way to avenge them. Toei’s Bardock is a evil person who happily committed genocide and he cares for his crew and race. You don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil. Especially when the show itself said Saiyan Saga Piccolo was still evil until he threw himself in front of Nappa’s blast.

And Gohan is literally the only reason she didn’t blow up the planet when she was nine. So it isn’t a stretch at all when it actually happened in the Special.

Bra is anything but neutral the same with Vegeta. Vegeta was the definition of hero-antagonist in the Cell and to a lesser extent the Buu Saga. A neutral character would be someone like Whis who can’t get massively involved in any event unless he gets something bad for the most part just watch the show. Neutral characters by their definition don’t push the plot, something both Bra and Vegeta massively do. They just react to events.

And again, you don’t need to be Freeza’s level of evil to be classified as evil.

Evil people arguably can't truly feel love for one thing, there is a difference between Evil and being Bad which is what the difference between Frieza and Vegeta are. Proviking Goku was also when Vegeta got the evil he wanted brought back out in his heart where he is putting on an act for Goku, which Goku later calls him out on. Majin Vegeta is trying to be evil and try to be like the old Vegeta and Goku tells him he's changed. Later he feels remorse for what happens to Gohan. Vegeta is a bad person that makes a lot of bad choices but Evil doesnt feel remorse for their actions. Light from Death Note was more evil then Vegeta.

I never said Goku made the wrong choice with Gohan, I said he made a bad choice. Yes Gohan was the only one who could beat Cell and yes it worked out in the end but Goku didn't prepare his son as good as he could have for the situation and Piccolo had to inform him of it because Goku thought Gohan was like him, someone who just enjoyed the thrill of the battle. Goku does the same thing with Goten and Trunks. Yes they should have learned how to fuse but another option would have been to use the Namek Dragonballs. Goku helped free Buu, Buu did not come to Earth looking for Goku, he could have just as easily have come back and used SSJ3 with fusion being the back up plan. Goku makes selfish and bad choices the same as Vegeta. To me you just describe a bad person by putting a good fight before protecting people. Goku luckily knows to protect his friends a little better but Vegeta does the same thing with Cell. Vegeta didn't let Cell go perfect because he's bad he does so because he thought he would still win and Cell would be gone and then he could focus on Goku. Goku also admits he's selfish when he spares Vegeta it's just luck that it worked out in the end.

Chi-Chi being around doesn't mean she isn't parenting Bra. Also it's said in the U16 specials Vegito takes Bra and Pan with him to police the universe from time to time.

Once again Bra is not as strong willed and Vegeta and Cell. On other people like Pui-Pui, Yakon and even Dabra let alone the people in the comic Babidi changes their character, even Bardock became a lap dog. Also I never said Bra was a good person I said it is Babidi making her kill her family without remorse. I never forgot Goku's motives, once again I said Goku made bad choices not the wrong choices. I keep bringing up Goku and Vegeta becasue we are shown how a saiyan trying to be better works and we are shown how saiyan that starts Evil and slowly becomes good acts. Bra is a teenager and Bra acts like Vegeta did. I NEVER SAID BRA WASN'T A BAD PERSON, SHE'S horrible.

She wanted Gohan to block her attack to get an opening, trying to blow up the Earth and bluffing someone you know is going to prevent it is different. Firstly she's 6, secondly that's how Vegito is teaching her to win, Gotenks almost did something similar with Buu.

Gohan can only influence her so much before Vegito shuts him down. If Vegito cuts Gohan off from Bra becasue he doesn't like what Gohan is teaching her what can Gohan do? You can have the best brother in the world, if your Dad is putting bad influences on you and you think that's the way to act and your Mom doesn't say anything your going to ignore a lot of what your Brother is teaching you. Bra wasn't trying to nuke her home she is trying to beat Gohan, her move is counting on Gohan blocking it, if Gohan doesn't stop her attack she's going to be upset about that. Goten and Trunks almost leveled the Budokai arena against 18.

Their kids they make mistakes.

That was Majin Vegeta who is trying to be Evil to get a fight with Goku. Vegito threatens Pan to try and get a fight with Gohan. Killing people you don't know is evil but with Vegeta he is trying to do this, Vegito thinks of doing this to his own family for a spar with his Son that he knows doesn't eant to fight. Goku would never do this and Vegeta was content on Earth when he thought Goku was gone forever. We see Vegito chocking Gohan and we know Bra says "When my father gets like this." he's done something similar before and wanted to attack Gohan for telling him he lost in this torument.

Vegeta doesn't have to mention his plan at tha time, Vegeta mentions it later, Goku mentions later he could have beat Buu. What Vegeta says later changes how we view an earlier scene. Vegeta argbuly knew where everyone was, notice how he gets close to Bulma but misses her, and later Goku says he hasn't forgtten about Bulma and Trunks. Vegeta himself says he had settled down with his family. Goku threatend Shin because he wanted to fight Vegeta as bad as Vegeta wanted to fight him, Goku just knows not to go about the way Vegeta does. Goku could have went SSJ3 then and put Vegeta down quick.

Vegeta beign selfish doesn't make him evil, it makes him bad and selfish the same way wanting the TOP doesn't make Goku evil. These characters aren't Balck and white they have shades of grey. Vegeta overestimates himself, that doesn't mean he's evil. He's stupid, cocky, arogant and bad but not Evil. Also a Hero antagonist which Vegeta isn't by the way he's an anti-hero is not Evil. They are heroes who are bad guys or will do bad things to see the heores win. Kami also says Piccolo is starting to change, you can't go for Evil to good instantly but even in the early DBZ Goku says Piccolo isn't about bad as his Dad which is wasn't. Once again Vegeta is bad not evil, he refuses to serve Babidi and Buu had to power up twice for Vegeta to relize how bad his meseed up. Vegeta still thinks Gohan can beat Buu at first and later he thinks he can beat Buu to attone. Evil people don't think to attone, Bad people do. Future Trunks dying is what ultimately broke Vegeta for the better.

How can you be an active parent and emotionally distant, if your emotionally distant this yes the other parent is doing the majority of the racing. Trunks acts like a normal kid showing Bulma is rasing him, Vegeta hangs out with him when its time to train. Bulma is always being shown trying to get Vegeta to play a more active part in Trunks's life. Like I said before emotinally distant to us and what Trunks thinks is good are two different things. As for Bra that's fine she has a support system but Gohan was brought up completely differently then Bra. We know Piccolo has had more time with Gohan then he would have had with Bra and Vegito considers himself a God so Bra problay thinks she and her Dad are just as or more important then Dende. Bra clearly doesn't have the same relationship with her extended family as Gohan did growing up. And yes she's never experinced what Gohan, Goten and Trunks did which is why she doesn't appericate what she has the way they do. She is spoiled and arogant. We did she she was hurt when Pan was killed however.

I never said Vegito doesn't love her, he doesn't love her the way a Father should, abusive people claim to love their victums and problay do in some sick way.

Because she is a 6 year old kid that doesn't know any better and was fighting her Brother who she knew would stop the blast. Someone has to teach her why that's wrong, It's the same way kids play with guns when their little and shoot their family.

King Piccolo used his kids as minons and cared because someone was taking out his army, Bardock is not evil he's bad. Bardock is a soilder who is being paid to do a job, yes what he is doing is Evil but he isn't getting up to kill innocents for pleasure the way Frieza does. The show also says that Piccolo is in the middle of changing during the time and Gohan was the first time he made a truly noble decisions.

She was 6 not nine and she wanted him to block the blast to win a fight.

Vegeta is an anti hero, a hero-antagonist is L from Death Note. Whis is true netural, Bra is a chaotic netural in the sense that she does Good and Bad. Ultimately she is an anti hero.

And again You can be Bad and not Evil. Frieza is Evil, Saiyan saga Vegeta is evil. Buu saga Vegeta is bad but not Evil.

And Please stop telling me to re-read the Cell and Buu saga.

Since jjgp1112 addressed several points, I won't address all of this.

But I will add, you can be evil and have love ones. That isn't arguable at all since we have science in real life that tells us that you can be an evil person and still have love ones. What you're thinking is a sociopath who aren't even necessary evil either. Overall, Vegeta was trying to be evil. He was evil since he sold his soul for power and then murdered a bunch of people.

Bad choices don't make someone a 'bad person'. That just mean they made a bad choice. And he doesn't do the same thing with Goten and Trunks since he wasn't even the one who suggested that they saved the world with Fusion. That was Mr. Popo and Piccolo agreed with both of them. Again, did you watched the Buu Saga?

What kind of logic is that? Making bad or selfish choices doesn't mean someone is a bad. By that definition, no one is good and everyone is a bad person. And Vegeta didn't give a damn about Trunks until Cell put a hole in his chest. How is that even remotely comparable to Goku?

Ah, yeah it was Vegeta being very bad because Cell has to literally eat a person to become complete. This wasn't like Goku letting Freeza power up on Namek so he could kick his ass at full power. This was Vegeta letting Cell kill someone because he was having an ego trip and mocked his son when he told him he was being a moron to the point that Trunks rightfully blasted him.

She's still around even if she isn't Bra's parent, which is my point. She even went to see her after she left the HTC, showing that she cared for the girl. And Vegito takes Pan across the universe....who somehow doesn't get messed up in the head by Bra does despite Pan being younger and more impressionable? I don't think you realized what you wrote.

Here's the thing, people enslaved under Babidi keep their personalties. They don't become evil, they were already rotten. Let's take Spoopavich who happily beat the shit out of Videl because her father beat him at the last tournament. He was over the top cruel and tortured the girl without Babidi telling him jack despite being completely under his control. It's the same with Bra. Even if we say she's under Babidi's control, her personality is intact and she wants to hurt her family the same way Spoopavich wanted to hurt Videl. And it matches her personality even before mind-control since I can't repeat this enough, she tried to blow up the planet to beat Gohan in a sparring match and she never regret doing it. And we don't know enough about Pui-Pui, Yakon and even Dabra to say that Babidi changed them since we never met them before they were mind-controlled. And even the people in the comic didn't have their personality changed. They just obeyed Babidi.

This isn't about 'Saiyans'. Humans make bad and stupid choices, so why are we bringing species into this. And this isn't about Bra making 'bad choice', she willfully tried to destroy her own home to win a sparring match that she started. That and Bra is a half-Saiyan, so why are we trying to pretend that she a pure Saiyan who 'she starts out evil' when have seen other hybrids and none of them act like her.

That about as much as a 'bluff' as Vegeta saying he was going to nuke the Earth if Goku dodged after he made him bleed. They're both evil acts even if we say Bra expected Gohan to block. And a blast that can nuke a planet during a sparring match isn't something to downplay even if she thought Gohan was going to deflect it.

But Vegito didn't, so why are you bringing that up? In fact, Vegito raged quit Bra, which is why Gohan had to step in. And we have seen people in real life that have horrible, horrible parents far worst than Vegito who turned out okay because they had other people supporting them rather it was a sibling, uncle, grandparents, of even the neighbors. So don't give me 'her dad was a bad influence, so it totally justifies her being a bitch'. Heck, I have someone in my family who's like that and it annoys me that people act like one horrible influence dictates someone's entire life if they have other people around them that care. And we haven't seen enough of Bulma to say, 'she says nothing'.

Also, no. Goten and Trunks didn't almost leveled the Budokai arena against 18. Seriously, did you watched the Buu Saga since to be frank, you appear to be making up a bunch of stuff to prove your point. And even if they did, nearly blowing up an arena is hardly comparable to trying to destroy the planet and trying to downplay it with 'well, she would have felt sorry about it later' like she's that child who stole candy from the store.

How does Bra being a kid justifies her trying to blow up the planet?

And Vegeta again wasn't trying. He murdered people with a grin on his face. That is nowhere the same as Vegito making threat towards Pan since one acted on their threat when the other one didn't. And killing people period is evil unless it's in self defense or to protect someone. It isn't like Vegeta is less evil because he killed a bunch of strangers, and Vegito again didn't even go through with it.

So you're basically talking out of your butt about Vegeta wanting to used the Dragon Balls to revived his victims. And no, Vegeta didn't mentioned it later as if that was always he planned since he only decided to revived the people of Earth so they could create the Spirit Bomb. And this was all after Vegeta got several critical development such as his sacrifice, merging with Goku, and admitting that Goku was better than him. Things that Majin Vegeta didn't have, so it's nuts to assumed that he was always going to revived the people he murdered.

There is no comparison between what Vegata did and Goku asking for a tournament from Zeno. Goku didn't asked Zeno to blow up the losing universes. Zeno did it himself. The tournament wasn't even Goku's idea, it was Zeno's and Goku just reminded him of it. Seriously, stopped trying to drag Goku into this to downplay Vegeta's evil acts.

Buu Saga Vegeta was evil, just not as evil as before. And heroes who are bad people are called hero antagonist like Light from Death Note, not anti-heroes. An anti-hero is someone like Batman or Iron Man who doesn't questionable and shady stuff, but is firmly on the side of good.

Starting to change, but still evil, which is Vegeta through the last half of Z. And this is Dragon Ball. People go from evil to good easily for the most part like Buu went from a murderous man child to swearing to never to kill in the span of an afternoon. Same with Tien swearing off becoming an assassin and killing Goku. Vegeta was the exception, not the rule. And Piccolo not being as bad as his dad doesn't mean he wasn't evil. Just that he wasn't as bad as his dad. Which is like saying, Nappa isn't evil because he isn't as bad as Vegeta.

Nothing in Z nor the manga said Vegeta was an active parent. Only that he trained Trunks, which you can do while being emotionally distance if you ever went to a martial arts school. Vegito isn't emotionless distance since he's more like Goku in that aspect, but nothing showed that he was really an active parent since Vegito was out in space being a cop while Bra nearly blew up the planet and then rage quit when Bra got on his nerves.

We don't know how much time Piccolo did or didn't have with Bra. You're making assumptions here. And Vegito doesn't considered himself a god. He's worship like a god, there is a difference. And why would that apply to Bra since she's weaker than her dad and Gohan. Vegito's the god, not his daughter and she's never treated as one.

Vegito isn't abusive towards Bra. If anything, he's strict enough since she should have gotten more than a cool off period in the HTC and sparring match with Gotenks for nearly nuking the planet. In fact, not even the comic claimed that Vegito is abusive.

So she's six. How old was Gohan? Heck, Goten was seven with the power to destroy several planets and he didn't act like that. And she's raised by a circle of superpower beings. What do you mean she doesn't know any better? Goten knew better and he was only a year younger than her.

Despite using them as minions, he still clearly cared for them and went out of his way to avenge them. He even talks about how horrible it felt when his kids died. He also treated Piano extremely well. Bardock is evil. He killed innocent people without a care. That is no excusing 'he's a soldiers' when he murdered people that couldn't fight back either. Like a soldier is evil if they go into a village full of men, women, and children and burn it down. The 'we were just following orders' doesn't work as the Nazi found out. And it wasn't just following orders either since Bardock admitted to liking all the work he was doing under Freeza. You seem to have this thing that a person can't be evil unless they're like Freeza.

Again, what does that matter when Goten was seven and didn't act like that?

Bra isn't chaotic neutral, that Zen Buu. Bra is just a hero-antagonist. She tries to do good, but it's mostly a front because she doesn't want to do it and looks down on the people she's protecting as inferior to her.

And you need to reread those sagas since you don't seem to remember them very well. Or you're a very dishonest person.

I'm not even going to talk to you moving forward since we've resulted to name calling now. How is repeating events in a Saga that you don't agree with make me a dishonest person. I could start throwing names around and tell you to read things but I won't.

Goten and Trunks put enough power into the blast that 18 gets afraid and says that would have leveled the Budokai. THAT DID HAPPEN.

Goku agrees to teach Goten and Trunks fusion after Piccolo and Popo suggest the boys, that still doesn't make it the right choice. Goku never even things to go to Namek to review himself and Gohan which would have been the better choice then teach Goten and Trunks fusion. The best choice is not always the right choice.

Light is a Villain Protagonist not a hero antagonist which would be L from death note.

My last point on Goku is he's bad because he constantly makes selfish choices, not that he did so a couple of times. Same with Vegeta.

And for the last time I don't need to re read the Buu saga I can tell you the plot from start to finish. Just becasue my interpretation is different from yours doesn't mean I didn't read the saga again.

We've clogged up the thread long enough to I'll agree to disagree and we can leave this topic in the past.

[jjgp1112]

snip

Um, why do you keep bringing up this point about the Dragon balls? We never ONCE see Vegeta taking this into consideration during that whole ordeal. It's only AFTER he comes to regret his actions that he says he wants to wish them back. You're making this up to soften Vegeta's actions at the time.

[miguelnuva1]

snip

Um, why do you keep bringing up this point about the Dragon balls? We never ONCE see Vegeta taking this into consideration during that whole ordeal. It's only AFTER he comes to regret his actions that he says he wants to wish them back. You're making this up to soften Vegeta's actions at the time.

Vegeta saying that us supposed to be applied to his earlier chain of thought the same way Goku reveals he could beat Fat Buu.

During their fight Goku also says Vegeta was putting on a show with acting Evil.

[jjgp1112]

snip

Um, why do you keep bringing up this point about the Dragon balls? We never ONCE see Vegeta taking this into consideration during that whole ordeal. It's only AFTER he comes to regret his actions that he says he wants to wish them back. You're making this up to soften Vegeta's actions at the time.

Vegeta saying that us supposed to be applied to his earlier chain of thought the same way Goku reveals he could beat Fat Buu.

During their fight Goku also says Vegeta was putting on a show with acting Evil.

No, he doesn't. When he's making the plan to wish everybody back he points out that it needs to be worded in a way that brings back the people that he killed but AT NO POINT does he mention that he had already considered this back then.

This is why HeroR keeps telling you to go back and read/watch the sagas again. You're either misremembering or just outright making stuff up.

And again, Vegeta's ACTIONS show that the evil wasn't an act. You don't kill a bunch of people as a charade - that comes from something within you, a callous lack of regard for others. Babidi can't take control of you if there isn't already evil present - even if it's tucked away. That's why "Majin Piccolo" isn't plausible beyond a first thought.

Goku never says Vegeta's evil shit was all a show - what he does say is a charade is him pretending like he still doesn't care about Bulma and Trunks. And doubts he was truly content with surrendering his pride just to satisfy his grudge.

[ZeroNeonix]

Some of these replies are becoming like little novels. Is anyone actually taking the time to read these? lol

[Kaboom]

It would help if everyone stopped needlessly quoting the entire post of whoever they're replying to.

~HINT, HINT.~

[Steven Bloodriver]

I have a question about Lady Son Bra, would she have been much more normal if Vegito had never been present in her life? Like for example, Vegito not being present when his only daughter had been born and this stays the very exact same throughout the rest of Lady Son Bra's life?

[FoolsGil]

https://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/e ... tml#h_read


...I guess that's really the only excuse you can make, for Bra.

what a hack. No excuses like a different writer for the Future Majin Attack.

[goku the krump dancer]

https://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/e ... tml#h_read


...I guess that's really the only excuse you can make, for Bra.

what a hack. No excuses like a different writer for the Future Majin Attack.

So he's gonna turn Vegetto into a Heihachi Mishima/Yujiro Hanma hybrid?.. C'mon man, I hope that's not the case but at the same time, it's Salagir's interpretation of furthering Vegetto as a character and not keeping him as a plot device, so he ultimately has free range to do what he wants.

[FoolsGil]

https://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/e ... tml#h_read


...I guess that's really the only excuse you can make, for Bra.

what a hack. No excuses like a different writer for the Future Majin Attack.

So he's gonna turn Vegetto into a Heihachi Mishima/Yujiro Hanma hybrid?.. C'mon man, I hope that's not the case but at the same time, it's Salagir's interpretation of furthering Vegetto as a character and not keeping him as a plot device, so he ultimately has free range to do what he wants.

Indeed he does.