"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

I hope to god that little conversation about hell with Moro and Vegeta doesn't mean that Vegeta going to end up killing himself or somehow dying in the process of this fight and go to the afterlife.

I think DiscountDabi puts it best, it's not about him going to hell, he's simply so broken about what he's done he doesn't believe anything he does now can make up for it, despite everyone seeing the complete opposite in him. Vegeta sees himself as an irredeemable bad guy who's just as bad as Moro, while everyone else sees him as heroic as Goku.

oh vegeta lost again ... that's something new.

The fight isn't over, and based on Piccolo's speech, I think Vegeta still has a good chance at killing him. It's also worth noting that Vegeta "lost" to a fused being, not single Moro.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I hope to god that little conversation about hell with Moro and Vegeta doesn't mean that Vegeta going to end up killing himself or somehow dying in the process of this fight and go to the afterlife.

I think DiscountDabi puts it best, it's not about him going to hell, he's simply so broken about what he's done he doesn't believe anything he does now can make up for it, despite everyone seeing the complete opposite in him. Vegeta sees himself as an irredeemable bad guy who's just as bad as Moro, while everyone else sees him as heroic as Goku.

oh vegeta lost again ... that's something new.

The fight isn't over, and based on Piccolo's speech, I think Vegeta still has a good chance at killing him.

Granted, how the hell was Vegeta supposed to know Moro would get desperate enough to eat 7-3, causing them to basically with fuse each other?

I doubt Vegeta is taking Moro down by himself, this is a team effort and I doubt Goku, Gohan and the others are going to be sitting on their hands while Moro-7-3 is on the loose and wants to kill them.

[Matches Malone]

How the hell was Vegeta supposed to know Moro would get desperate enough to eat 7-3, causing them to basically with fuse each other?

I doubt Vegeta is taking Moro down by himself, this is a team effort and I doubt Goku, Gohan and the others are going to be sitting on their hands while Moro-7-3 is on the loose and wants to kill them.

It's not even fair to compare them anyone, as it's no longer a one on one fight. Vegeta got knocked down by a fused being. When it comes to the fair, one vs one fight, Vegeta won that without question.

Of course he isn't, the plan now is probably to give Vegeta an opening to break up their fusion, allowing him to kill Moro and Goku to take down 7-3.

[HeroR]

Vegeta only kept his body upon death because he was too useful in the in the fight against Buu, and even Goku thought he got wiped out in hell. Also, the Namekian dragon isn't Yemma. We don't know how he will be judged upon death again.

Vegeta at the very least is a morally good person. Saying he's a villain is fucking outrageous.

I do agree with that. I'm just saying that he could still be bound for hell or he will be reborn again like Kid Buu depending on how Yemma feels. Then again, Piccolo didn't go to hell, so *shrugged*

[The Undying]

I noticed some are saying Vegeta telling Goku he's better than him is character regression, but I don't see it that way. Goku and Vegeta are constantly going back and forth with each other, it doesn't mean they don't respect each other. Goku even says Vegeta being ahead is only temporary.

I've said it countless times, but the problem with a good portion of DB's fanbase is that they don't get Vegeta. They want him to be someone he's not, and they think every instance of character development should apply to the entirety of his personality.

Between taking innocuous rival banter out of context, blowing Vegeta's "villain" description out of proportion when the point of the arc is that he feels remorse and is trying to atone for past misdeeds, acting like he shouldn't expect he might go to hell when (again) the point of the arc is that he feels remorse and is trying to atone for past misdeeds, or pretending he shouldn't attempt to make peace with the Namekians despite already feeling guilt over what he did to the Earthlings in the Boo arc, there are already too many examples of people twisting context, taking statements hyper-literally, not paying attention to the story, etc.

Vegeta is a better person now. He's also a habitual shit-talker and occasional self-berater. These are not mutually exclusive concepts.

[Lord Beerus]

1. Just because you admit that someone is better than you doesn’t mean you can’t strive to try and close the gap still. Its like if I gave up on becoming a chef because I’ll never be as good as Gordon Ramsey.

2. You seem to have missed the purpose of Vegeta talking about going to Hell. Piccolo talks about how much Vegeta has changed and how much of a good guy henis now, while Vegeta doesn’t see it that way. He feels so much guilt for his past actions that he doesn’t think he can make up for it and that he is destined for Hell no matter what. That shows how noble and selfless he has become that he doesn’t think he can make up for his sins.

I'm upset over the context of the "You're number one!" being shit on in the fact that Vegeta saying he's more talented that Goku, despite the fact that Goku attaining the complete form of Ultra Instinct -- not even taking into consideration how quickly he did it -- kills that notion.

Vegeta still thinking he's a bad person is terrible writing because it undermines circumstances in the original story (mass revival of only good people who died on Earth in the Majin Boo arc) and even Super itself (Vegeta qualifying as a righteous person to take part in the Super Saiyan God ritual in the Battle Of Gods arc). Vegeta himself has gone through two different experiences where it's made demonstratively clear he's not a bad person. But the Toyotaro wants you to forget that so he could have added "depth" to Vegeta's character, where there didn't need to be.

[Michsi]

Vegeta only kept his body upon death because he was too useful in the in the fight against Buu, and even Goku thought he got wiped out in hell. Also, the Namekian dragon isn't Yemma. We don't know how he will be judged upon death again.

Vegeta at the very least is a morally good person. Saying he's a villain is fucking outrageous.

I do agree with that. I'm just saying that he could still be bound for hell or he will be reborn again like Kid Buu depending on how Yemma feels. Then again, Piccolo didn't go to hell, so *shrugged*

Piccolo Jr didn't didn't really get around to committing any world ending crimes, just attempted to.

But yeah, whims of the DB deities and what-not.

[Matches Malone]

Vegeta at the very least is a morally good person. Saying he's a villain is fucking outrageous.

Everyone recognizes Vegeta as a good person, the problem is that Vegeta doesn't see it that way, which is great character development IMO.

Look at it this way, if you committed a crime and payed for it (jail time, fine, community service, etc.), you're recognized by the law as "good", but will you see it that way ? Vegeta simply doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for all the terrible things he did back int he day, and is trying to right those wrongs, despite everyone believing he's made up for them.

[HeroR]

How the hell was Vegeta supposed to know Moro would get desperate enough to eat 7-3, causing them to basically with fuse each other?

I doubt Vegeta is taking Moro down by himself, this is a team effort and I doubt Goku, Gohan and the others are going to be sitting on their hands while Moro-7-3 is on the loose and wants to kill them.

It's not even fair to compare them anyone, as it's no longer a one on one fight. Vegeta got knocked down by a fused being. When it comes to the fair, one vs one fight, Vegeta won that without question.

Of course he isn't, the plan now is probably to give Vegeta an opening to break up their fusion, allowing him to kill Moro and Goku to take down 7-3.

This isn't a tournament. This is a life or death battle, there are no rules. No one claims that Gohan won against Super Buu despite Buu running away and absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo.

[HeroR]

Vegeta at the very least is a morally good person. Saying he's a villain is fucking outrageous.

I do agree with that. I'm just saying that he could still be bound for hell or he will be reborn again like Kid Buu depending on how Yemma feels. Then again, Piccolo didn't go to hell, so *shrugged*

Piccolo Jr didn't didn't really get around to committing any world ending crimes, just attempted to.

But yeah, whims of the DB deities and what-not.

He had his father's soul, therefore all his sins. Piccolo even said he was King Piccolo.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

How the hell was Vegeta supposed to know Moro would get desperate enough to eat 7-3, causing them to basically with fuse each other?

I doubt Vegeta is taking Moro down by himself, this is a team effort and I doubt Goku, Gohan and the others are going to be sitting on their hands while Moro-7-3 is on the loose and wants to kill them.

It's not even fair to compare them anyone, as it's no longer a one on one fight. Vegeta got knocked down by a fused being. When it comes to the fair, one vs one fight, Vegeta won that without question.

Of course he isn't, the plan now is probably to give Vegeta an opening to break up their fusion, allowing him to kill Moro and Goku to take down 7-3.

Would 7-3 even be in a state to fight? I mean he legit just got forcibly absorbed against his will. Even if they defused, I'm questioning if he'd even be able to fight and would want to fight for Moro at that point. I mean, he was already in a weakened state, if they defuse he wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight, especially against someone like Goku, who would make quick work of him even without UI.

[Matches Malone]

Would 7-3 even be in a state to fight? I mean he legit just got forcibly absorbed against his will. Even if they defused, I'm questioning if he'd even be able to fight and would want to fight for Moro at that point. I mean, he was already in a weakened state, if they defuse he wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight.

He might be programmed to fight till the death for Moro, regardless of what state he's in, or what he thinks of Moro.

No one claims that Gohan won against Super Buu despite Buu running away and absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo.

I do, as fusion results you fighting multiple characters.

[DiscountDabi]

Vegeta at the very least is a morally good person. Saying he's a villain is fucking outrageous.

Everyone recognizes Vegeta as a good person, the problem is that Vegeta doesn't see it that way, which is great character development IMO.

Look at it this way, if you committed a crime and payed for it (jail time, fine, community service, etc.), you're recognized by the law as "good", but will you see it that way ? Vegeta simply doesn't believe he's done enough to make up for all the terrible things he did back int he day, and is trying to right those wrongs, despite everyone believing he's made up for them.

This! This is a part of Vegeta we rarely see. Self doubt and Guilt are rare traits from the prideful bastard. Even when all his friends and family, a magic dragon, and a godly ritual believe that he is a good person, Vegeta still has that feeling that he’ll never be able to make up for it.

[Michsi]

I do agree with that. I'm just saying that he could still be bound for hell or he will be reborn again like Kid Buu depending on how Yemma feels. Then again, Piccolo didn't go to hell, so *shrugged*

Piccolo Jr didn't didn't really get around to committing any world ending crimes, just attempted to.

But yeah, whims of the DB deities and what-not.

He had his father's soul, therefore all his sins. Piccolo even said he was King Piccolo.

We he IS King Piccolo as in he takes the title and the name. But his sins? Nah, then whats the point of reincarnation?

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

Would 7-3 even be in a state to fight? I mean he legit just got forcibly absorbed against his will. Even if they defused, I'm questioning if he'd even be able to fight and would want to fight for Moro at that point. I mean, he was already in a weakened state, if they defuse he wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight.

He might be programmed to fight till the death for Moro, regardless of what state he's in, or what he thinks of Moro.

No one claims that Gohan won against Super Buu despite Buu running away and absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo.

I do, as fusion results you fighting multiple characters.

Do you think it'll be like when Cell vomited 18 out that he'll try doing eating 7-3 again, but then out of nowhere Vegeta, Goku or one of the Z fighters stop him and either kill 7-3 or rescue him and get him out of Moro's reach? Like I imagine when Vegeta finally manages to seperate them, it won't be a pretty sight. Moro would probably try to eat 7-3 shortly afterwards.

[HeroR]

Would 7-3 even be in a state to fight? I mean he legit just got forcibly absorbed against his will. Even if they defused, I'm questioning if he'd even be able to fight and would want to fight for Moro at that point. I mean, he was already in a weakened state, if they defuse he wouldn't be able to put up much of a fight.

He might be programmed to fight till the death for Moro, regardless of what state he's in, or what he thinks of Moro.

No one claims that Gohan won against Super Buu despite Buu running away and absorbing Gotenks and Piccolo.

I do, as fusion results you fighting multiple characters.

Except Gohan didn't win. In the end, Buu outsmarted him and everyone and would have killed Gohan. As I said, this isn't a tournament with some rule that says you win if the other person used fusion.

[HeroR]

Piccolo Jr didn't didn't really get around to committing any world ending crimes, just attempted to.

But yeah, whims of the DB deities and what-not.

He had his father's soul, therefore all his sins. Piccolo even said he was King Piccolo.

We he IS King Piccolo as in he takes the title and the name. But his sins? Nah, then whats the point of reincarnation?

That is only if your soul is cleansed, which Piccolo skipped. Otherwise, you're just a devil spawn.

[Tai Lung]

The fight isn't over, and based on Piccolo's speech, I think Vegeta still has a good chance at killing him. It's also worth noting that Vegeta "lost" to a fused being, not single Moro.

The only thing that vegeta could do is try to defuse Moro but ... I don't see it feasible since if that were the case I would have already done it but we'll see the merger for another chapter so ..

[Matches Malone]

The only thing that vegeta could do is try to defuse Moro but ... I don't see it feasible since if that were the case I would have already done it but we'll see the merger for another chapter so ..

The chapter ended the minute he was attacked, there was no time to separate them. If that wasn't the plan, the idea wouldn't have been brought up in the first place.

Do you think it'll be like when Cell vomited 18 out that he'll try doing eating 7-3 again, but then out of nowhere Vegeta, Goku or one of the Z fighters stop him and either kill 7-3 or rescue him and get him out of Moro's reach? Like I imagine when Vegeta finally manages to seperate them, it won't be a pretty sight. Moro would probably try to eat 7-3 shortly afterwards.

I assume he'll try to eat him again, but by then he'll be so damaged that it won't take much to blow both of them away.

This! This is a part of Vegeta we rarely see. Self doubt and Guilt are rare traits from the prideful bastard. Even when all his friends and family, a magic dragon, and a godly ritual believe that he is a good person, Vegeta still has that feeling that he’ll never be able to make up for it.

This is some great writing, yet it's being overshadowed by people either complaining about him not killing Moro (which he probably will), or complaining about it being character regression. I'll go as far as to say this is the best character writing we've gotten since this revival started, and is up there with the best of the original manga. This right here is how you justify bringing back a franchise after being dead for 15 years.

[Omgzord]

So who is stronger between Vegeta and Goku now? Goku was far more impressive against Moro but Moro, Piccolo, and Goku all seem to think that Vegeta is superior. Despite him getting smacked around hard?

I thought the message here was to show how Vegeta beating Moro despite being weaker than Goku is that physical strength is not everything.