Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:23 pmThis isn't ever actually stated. I tried looking for it but never found it.Sadala Elite wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:07 pm That's because in the anime version, SSJ Rose is Black's version of SSJ1, unlike in the manga where its his version of SSB.
Sure would've been nice if you posted the actual translation of the magazine, rather than someone's interpretation of it.
Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:57 pmSure would've been nice if you posted the actual translation of the magazine, rather than someone's interpretation of it.
That's not at all what the anime says nor shows (nor the guide I posted). And you don't need a God transformation to use God ki.mute_proxy wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 3:12 am It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).Sadala Elite wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:04 am
That's not at all what the anime says nor shows (nor the guide I posted). And you don't need a God transformation to use God ki.
And no, SSB is not just SSJ1 with God ki, its when you mix SSJ1 & SSG together.
- 1st of all, God ki has absolutely nothing to do with raw strength/power at all. So the fact that SSB is stronger than SSG means that SSB can't possibly be just "SSJ1 with God ki". It makes zero sense.mute_proxy wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 amI don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).Sadala Elite wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:04 am
That's not at all what the anime says nor shows (nor the guide I posted). And you don't need a God transformation to use God ki.
And no, SSB is not just SSJ1 with God ki, its when you mix SSJ1 & SSG together.
And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.
Dragon Wukong wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:45 pm What proxy said. SSGSS is ultimately a "version of Super Saiyan" because its a hybrid form, not just "SSJ1 with God ki", which makes no sense, so Rose being "Black's version of Super Saiyan" doesn't contradict the idea of it also being a version of SSB.
Yes it does, because SSJ Rose has nothing to do with SSG in the anime
But there was a whole separate thread on this. Let's not get off topic.
As far as Toriyama's unused ideas go, it's interesting to point out that Goku Black having regular Super Saiyan on top of Super Saiyan Rose was also in the notes he gave to Toei.
Yeah, I would have to agree on this one. I think fans severely overcomplicate the issue, saying Toyotaro retconned this or Toriyama intended that. I always assumed the obvious: Vegeta somehow obtained Super Saiyan God offscreen like every other transformation he gets in the series, and then boosted it to become Super Saiyan Blue through training with Whis. That's really it.Sadala Elite wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:40 pm
- There's absolutely nothing in the anime that's suggest Vegeta ever "skipped" SSG at all. As Goku said in RoF, SSB is what happens when a SSG turns SSJ1 (which means that its a hybrid form), so logically that means that you need SSG in order to use SSB at all. And nothing in the DBS anime says that he couldn't use SSG in that version.
). He calls Super Saiyan Blue "the power of a Super Saiyan God" anyway a few times if I remember rightly.It's implied that it was some form of Goku Black that was unique to him, either being regular Super Saiyan 1, or being a form that's closer to Super Saiyan than SSGSS.Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 7:23 pmThis isn't ever actually stated. I tried looking for it but never found it.Sadala Elite wrote: Wed Jul 08, 2020 2:07 pm That's because in the anime version, SSJ Rose is Black's version of SSJ1, unlike in the manga where its his version of SSB.
I probably sound annoying, but could you link me the sources to the part where it states UI wasn't originally part of the TOP? I'd love to see more behind the scenes of this stuff, not to mention the tingly back stuff, which I didn't really know whether it was Toriyama or not.Dragon Wukong wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:35 pm Well, we know Vegito in the Future Trunks arc and Kale in the ToP weren't originally from Toriyama, though both were approved and he ended up creating Caulifla to go with Kale. Zamasu was also originally written as someone who was weak enough that Goku and Vegeta together could hold him off.
We also know Ultra Instinct wasn't originally part of the Tournament of Power, and came from Toei asking Toriyama to create another form for the arc.
All of this info comes from varying Toei/Toyotaro interviews, but if you look it up I'm sure you can find it. Admittedly it's bad practice of me but I don't have the energy to find my sources right now.
It's kind of interesting to try and think of what Toriyama might've been picturing in his head as he wrote down each arc before changes and additions were made. Personally, Ultra Instinct being an addition to the arc leaves me wondering what Toriyama might have been thinking of when he envisioned the finale being a Goku/Frieza teamup. It would've been pretty interesting if he had a Golden Frieza/Goku Blue fend-off in mind, though that's something I wish we personally got instead of the Final Form/Super Saiyan sendoff from the anime version.
Pretty ppppllleeaase link the sourcesemperior wrote: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:26 amYes. And Toriyama said that the manga’s tournament of power would have different developments from the manga.ShaggyBlanco wrote: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:36 pm Apparently he came up with the elimination order for the ToP, the anime and manga have different takes on it so I guess it wasn't for every character
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... vival-arc/Q: How much of the story was written out in Toriyama-sensei‘s original draft?
A: Nakamura: The course of events for the Universe 7 warriors was written out in a document from beginning to end. For instance, who Piccolo fights and loses to, and who ultimately survives. Plus the course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11… all of the main points were written out.
By the way he also supplied the anime staff with the tingly back information and many other stuff, as they said he was very active with the writing of that arc.
Maybe Toei had no idea what to do with the U7 fighters which is why they asked Toriyama and he supplied only them with that document outlining how they lose, while Toyotaro had some freedom to deviate a bit.
Still, I wonder if this piece of information is truly correct. Maybe Toei actually deviated from this document Toriyama gave them? He probably wasn’t very particular about it.
I say it because there’s no way he told them that 18 loses against a clearly not Toriyama character like Anilaza, and same for Tenshinan. Even Roshi’s situation is weird because he basically lost due to overusing Mafuba and I doubt it was Toriyama’s idea to have him spam that move. Maybe he just wrote that after Roshi goes through some very tiring battles he’s convinced to leave the ring by Vegeta.
18 losing against Damon and Tenshinan losing against Frost is much more believable to be something Toriyama wrote and, in fact, he heavily supervised the part where 18 loses in the manga.
But there’s no way he wrote that Roshi loses against Jiren.
You're not annoying, but the problem is a lot of this information is scattered (mainly throughout Twitter) as opposed to being all collected nice and neat somewhere. It would honestly take me a lot of effort to find it again, since a cursory google oft-doesn't.Aim wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:48 pm I probably sound annoying, but could you link me the sources to the part where it states UI wasn't originally part of the TOP? I'd love to see more behind the scenes of this stuff, not to mention the tingly back stuff, which I didn't really know whether it was Toriyama or not.
Super Saiyan God isn't only a result of a Saiyan having god ki, learning god ki doesn't give the user a massive boost in power, Super Saiyan God does, Super Saiyan God is a transformation...I swear I'm getting deja vu from this.mute_proxy wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 am It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.
I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).
And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.
No, that's like saying Goku and Vegeta should have reached SSGSS 2 & 3.SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:27 am If Rosé is just his version of Super Saiyan, then it means Black could have also achieved Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3, No? So in the end he only unlocked a fraction of his true potential.
Why? I said if it was his version of Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.Aim wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:21 amSuper Saiyan God isn't only a result of a Saiyan having god ki, learning god ki doesn't give the user a massive boost in power, Super Saiyan God does, Super Saiyan God is a transformation...I swear I'm getting deja vu from this.mute_proxy wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:34 am It's the same thing in both versions, it's Black's version of Blue. It's just that in the anime he's using god ki by default (Zamasu being a deity), so it's by default his Super Saiyan. It's pretty much semantics, but it's the same thing. In the manga he's able to tap into regular ki too.
I don't remember what the anime says nor shows specifically, but the "guide" says it's Black's Super Saiyan. If a deity (which Black basically is thanks to Zamasu's soul/spirit) turns Super Saiyan, it automatically switches to SSBlue/SSRose, since a deity's base uses God ki. The "guide" doesn't explain it, a little thought power is required to get it. It is Black's Super Saiyan, as the guide says, but it's his Super Saiyan done with god ki (which is basically SSBlue).
And yes, SSGod going SS is the same as a Super Saiyan switching to God ki/Power of SSG. Vegeta is proof of that. He learned the use of God ki while training in Whis' staff, after which he got SSBlue, skipping SSGod.
Stop. Spreading. Misinformation. Vegeta had to learn to tab into Super Saiyan God in order to go SSGSS, he was taught to use god ki and thus access the two godly transformations, he NEVER skipped Super Saiyan God, never, and it was never said he skipped it.
Goku Black's Super Saiyan isn't SSGSS in the anime, at best you could argue it's just a Super Saiyan version that is unique to him, or what fans once dubbed another form to be as "Chou Super Saiyan". It's his beautiful Super Saiyan.
No, that's like saying Goku and Vegeta should have reached SSGSS 2 & 3.SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:27 am If Rosé is just his version of Super Saiyan, then it means Black could have also achieved Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3, No? So in the end he only unlocked a fraction of his true potential.
Toriyama has stated that Goku and Vegeta would probably try and master the original Super Saiyan form to be just as powerful as it's successors, if we apply that here, it could explain Goku Black's Super Saiyan, a "perfect", "beautiful", Super Saiyan.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
I'm confused, it is basically his version of Super Saiyan?SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:29 am Why? I said if it was his version of Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.
Yes, so why should he not be able to reach Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3? Super Saiyan doesn't have only one form.Aim wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:44 amI'm confused, it is basically his version of Super Saiyan?SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:29 am Why? I said if it was his version of Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
Because by that logic you can apply that to SSGSS, because you can argue "why not combine the power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan 2 &/or 3?".SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:54 am
Yes, so why should he not be able to reach Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3? Super Saiyan doesn't have only one form.
You're still not getting my point...Aim wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:54 amBecause by that logic you can apply that to SSGSS, because you can argue "why not combine the power of Super Saiyan God with Super Saiyan 2 &/or 3?".SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:54 am
Yes, so why should he not be able to reach Super Saiyan Rosé 2 and 3? Super Saiyan doesn't have only one form.
Your statement makes no sense. Since you know why there can't be a Super Saiyan Rosé 2 & 3, but you want to convince everyone that the anime works basically the same as the manga.
Akira Toriyama, DBS vol.4 joint interview with ToyotaroAt his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
