There's always room for more strong guys in other universes

[LoganForkHands73]

Quality title, I know.

I've seen this argument pop up that the Dragon Ball creators were too hasty in making the Tournament of Power a contest between all of the strongest mortals from eight of the twelve universes. As PlagueOfGripes crudely put it, Toriyama blew his load in one jack, just like he did with introducing Freeza as the strongest in the universe. I had another thread starter in my saved drafts discussing that point, but instead I'll hit two birds with one stone and discuss it all here.

The title of the Strongest in the Universe has never really meant much. Vegeta was built up to be the toughest dude around, the root of all evil, etc, but that was thrown out of the window in the very next arc when many of Freeza's weaker generals were at least as strong Vegeta was by the time he went to Earth. Freeza was quickly demoted by Toei's various movie villains, who, while not part of the manga's continuity, nevertheless diluted the term even further as each villain was marketed as stronger than the last. Pretty much all of them claim to be the Strongest in the Universe at some point. It doesn't really mean anything. They're all just arrogant braggarts. OG manga-only fans of Freeza still like to say that he was technically the strongest mortal, disregarding the Kaioshin, Hakaishin, new creations like the Androids and magical beings such as Majin Buu. Yet even King Cold's second form was conjectured to be at least as strong as Freeza's mechanised final form by the Earthlings based on their ki. The point still stands that Freeza was convinced of his own ultimate superiority from his own limited perspective, as he was mostly unaware of these far mightier beings out there (though Resurrection F reveals that he was at least aware of both Beerus and Majin Buu, probably indicating that he was retroactively bluffing in the same way Vegeta must have been when he first fought Goku).

So yeah, getting back to the topic at hand, I think there's plenty of room of more exploration of powerful opponents in the other universes introduced in Super. Getting past the fact that the last two stories have dialled back to being restricted only to Universe 7 and have introduced two extremely powerful antagonists, who's to say that the competitors in the Tournament of Power truly were the best their universes had to offer? There's plenty of wiggle-room. Judging by the way many of the gods recruited for the tournament, many of them appear to not be well acquainted with mortals. Many of them simply recruited whatever strong dudes they could find within the 48 hour timeframe with no rhyme or reason. Not all of them were as lucky as Beerus, Belmod or even Mosco to already know powerful, reliable mortals who could help them. Take the elephant god from Universe 10 whatever his name is Rumsshi (thanks Google), he literally just found a bunch of buff protein-chugging gym lads and thought that would be enough. Clearly, he did not exhaust all avenues. Look at Universe 9's motley crew of losers -- outside of the Trio de Dangers, does it really look like these guys had any connection to each other or significance?

Looking at the god hierarchy, it seems that we have finally reached the apex of where it ends, i.e. Zeno, Daishinkan and Super Shenron. Some dislike it, but in many ways, it may be a good thing to cap things there. However, there's still some mystery and wiggle-room. In the anime, Daishinkan was said to be in the Top 5 Best Fighters, and as we all know, anyone who boasts about being Top 5 at something is probably number 5, so who could the other 4 be, hmm? Zalama is out there somewhere. Toribot may be an author-insert gag character, but he's also chilling out somewhere in the cosmos. Check out MistareFusion's new video about the godly hierarchy for more food for thought.

Maybe Jiren is the strongest mortal in his universe, but as media like Dragon Ball Heroes have already started to explore, there's tonnes of ways that he can be surpassed. He's already been jobbed by Hearts.

Without getting into the old "Dragon Ball is all about escalation" spiel which applies to all battle manga, Dragon Ball has always had a tendency to hype up each new antagonist or deity as the Strongest in All the Universes Plus Ultra, Do Not Steal, which understandably creates confusion and frustration whenever a newer, biggerer, strongerer guy inevitably comes along. Unfortunately, the Dragon Ball setting was not created with as much room for infinite expansion as, say, One Piece. But with the multiverse, there has never been so much room for expansion. .

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[Peach]

They don't need another universe to find strong people. Broly, Moro, and Merus went completely undetected for how many decades in their own universe?

Android 17 went completely unnoticed on their own planet despite being Blue tier

[DevilKing99]

They don't need another universe to find strong people. Broly, Moro, and Merus went completely undetected for how many decades in their own universe?

Android 17 went completely unnoticed on their own planet despite being Blue tier

This, there is also Beerus and Whis

There is literary a God Of destruction level demon in U11 somewhere that Jiren wants to defeat

The characters are as strong as they want them to be, Broly went from being weaker than base Vegeta to under SSB Gogeta level in barely an hour.

Buu remembered he was the Grand Kai and became Post Broly movie SSB level.

If the planet Sadala arc with Vegeta happens, you can bet there is going some type of evil god-level Saiyan character as the main villain.

[DevilKing99]

Quality title, I know.

I've seen this argument pop up that the Dragon Ball creators were too hasty in making the Tournament of Power a contest between all of the strongest mortals from eight of the twelve universes. As PlagueOfGripes crudely put it, Toriyama blew his load in one jack, just like he did with introducing Freeza as the strongest in the universe. I had another thread starter in my saved drafts discussing that point, but instead I'll hit two birds with one stone and discuss it all here.

The title of the Strongest in the Universe has never really meant much. Vegeta was built up to be the toughest dude around, the root of all evil, etc, but that was thrown out of the window in the very next arc when many of Freeza's weaker generals were at least as strong Vegeta was by the time he went to Earth. Freeza was quickly demoted by Toei's various movie villains, who, while not part of the manga's continuity, nevertheless diluted the term even further as each villain was marketed as stronger than the last. Pretty much all of them claim to be the Strongest in the Universe at some point. It doesn't really mean anything. They're all just arrogant braggarts. OG manga-only fans of Freeza still like to say that he was technically the strongest mortal, disregarding the Kaioshin, Hakaishin, new creations like the Androids and magical beings such as Majin Buu. Yet even King Cold's second form was conjectured to be at least as strong as Freeza's mechanised final form by the Earthlings based on their ki. The point still stands that Freeza was convinced of his own ultimate superiority from his own limited perspective, as he was mostly unaware of these far mightier beings out there (though Resurrection F reveals that he was at least aware of both Beerus and Majin Buu, probably indicating that he was retroactively bluffing in the same way Vegeta must have been when he first fought Goku).

So yeah, getting back to the topic at hand, I think there's plenty of room of more exploration of powerful opponents in the other universes introduced in Super. Getting past the fact that the last two stories have dialled back to being restricted only to Universe 7 and have introduced two extremely powerful antagonists, who's to say that the competitors in the Tournament of Power truly were the best their universes had to offer? There's plenty of wiggle-room. Judging by the way many of the gods recruited for the tournament, many of them appear to not be well acquainted with mortals. Many of them simply recruited whatever strong dudes they could find within the 48 hour timeframe with no rhyme or reason. Not all of them were as lucky as Beerus, Belmod or even Mosco to already know powerful, reliable mortals who could help them. Take the elephant god from Universe 10 whatever his name is Rumsshi (thanks Google), he literally just found a bunch of buff protein-chugging gym lads and thought that would be enough. Clearly, he did not exhaust all avenues. Look at Universe 9's motley crew of losers -- outside of the Trio de Dangers, does it really look like these guys had any connection to each other or significance?

Looking at the god hierarchy, it seems that we have finally reached the apex of where it ends, i.e. Zeno, Daishinkan and Super Shenron. Some dislike it, but in many ways, it may be a good thing to cap things there. However, there's still some mystery and wiggle-room. In the anime, Daishinkan was said to be in the Top 5 Best Fighters, and as we all know, anyone who boasts about being Top 5 at something is probably number 5, so who could the other 4 be, hmm? Zalama is out there somewhere. Toribot may be an author-insert gag character, but he's also chilling out somewhere in the cosmos. Check out MistareFusion's new video about the godly hierarchy for more food for thought.

Maybe Jiren is the strongest mortal in his universe, but as media like Dragon Ball Heroes have already started to explore, there's tonnes of ways that he can be surpassed. He's already been jobbed by Hearts.

Without getting into the old "Dragon Ball is all about escalation" spiel which applies to all battle manga, Dragon Ball has always had a tendency to hype up each new antagonist or deity as the Strongest in All the Universes Plus Ultra, Do Not Steal, which understandably creates confusion and frustration whenever a newer, biggerer, strongerer guy inevitably comes along. Unfortunately, the Dragon Ball setting was not created with as much room for infinite expansion as, say, One Piece. But with the multiverse, there has never been so much room for expansion. .

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

Great post and I have no idea why people put so much stock in the strongest dude around the thing, it's always stated for hype, and there is another dude that comes to be stronger.

Jiren is already a jobber character too though, he jobbed to Hearts a truckload times in Heroes so that already is mortal stronger than he is, and also Fuu going end up being stronger too because Heroes always states the main villain of this arc is stronger than the last.

So Fuu > Hearts > Broly > Jiren. And nothing has been stated about the current Heroes arc being the final one so next arc villain > Fuu > Hearts > Broly > Jiren

Also, I won't spoilers but there are bunch of characters in even One Piece that can be stronger than Whitebeard. '

It's the natural way action stories work.

[LoganForkHands73]

They don't need another universe to find strong people. Broly, Moro, and Merus went completely undetected for how many decades in their own universe?

Android 17 went completely unnoticed on their own planet despite being Blue tier

Well yes, exactly my point. Super hasn't explored the multiverse at all since the Universe Survival arc, yet more strong guys keep popping up anyway. But because the ToP claimed that the "strongest mortals in all universes" would be there, which is a tagline for basically everything in Dragon Ball, some have taken it overly literally. The Universe Survival arc wouldn't have worked nearly as well if we were told upfront that most of the competitors were relatively weak jobbers -- we knew that going in to an extent, but Dragon Ball is all about the hype, so suddenly they're all the strongest in their universes, come on out! Yes, even you random bird-man from Universe 10!

Great post and I have no idea why people put so much stock in the strongest dude around the thing, it's always stated for hype, and there is another dude that comes to be stronger.

Jiren is already a jobber character too though, he jobbed to Hearts a truckload times in Heroes so that already is mortal stronger than he is, and also Fuu going end up being stronger too because Heroes always states the main villain of this arc is stronger than the last.

So Fuu > Hearts > Broly > Jiren. And nothing has been stated about the current Heroes arc being the final one so next arc villain > Fuu > Hearts > Broly > Jiren

Also, I won't spoilers but there are bunch of characters in even One Piece that can be stronger than Whitebeard. '

It's the natural way action stories work.

Thank you.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well, in terms of raw power, even the Universe 7 team didn't field exclusively their strongest guys - they had various techniques and individual advantages, so it's logical to think that this is also true of other teams that we saw in the Tournament of Power - particularly Universe 11; Jiren aside (who is his own special case), most of them were there because they belonged to a team that worked well together in battles, not necessarily because they all individually occupied the Top 10 strength slots in their Universe.

That said, barring the (likely, but requiring explanation nonetheless) emergence of some long-forgotten villain, undiscovered monster, or individual with massive potential for improving their strength beyond its limits, I think that in the main story, at least, Jiren is supposed to definitively occupy the pinnacle of power from among the Universes we've seen so far. Universe 11 has the highest mortal rating of all the Universes on show at the Tournament of Power, so it's reasonable to suppose that Jiren's outrageous power stands above all the others - by default, at least (and until our heroes are confirmed to surpass him).

Of course, that does still leave people from Universes 1, 5, 8, and 12 to play with...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I dunno, I'm not sure I really want anymore super strong guys stronger than anything beforehand now.

At the very least, the idea of crazy undiscovered powerful people is wearing thin on me a bit now.

[SSJgogeto]

Each universe had only 40 hours to find warriors for the tournament. I don't think that's enough time, so IMO it's entirely possible that these universes still have some really powerful warriors.

[Skar]

There's always room to introduce new stronger guys but I think it has to be done in a way that doesn't feel we've seen it before. It's something that many long running series suffer from where the escalation becomes repetitive but taken to crazier extremes. A fictional story has no limit to how much it can escalate so usually the author decides when it end it because these types of stories don't go on forever. I feel we've already that point in Dragon Ball.

In DB, Vegeta was declared to the strongest in the universe but that was retconned to be hyperbole and he was only the strongest Saiyan. Since introducing Freeza, Toriyama kept him as the strongest mortal in the universe. The cyborgs and Cell were built afterwards, Dabura ruled over the Demon Realm, and Buu was an ancient monster sealed for millions of years. DBS maintained Freeza as the strongest non-Saiyan mortal in U7.

They might introduce stronger antagonists from other universes but I assume it would be more like Broly, Hearts, and Moro and an antagonist who becomes a threat during the storyline they're introduced in. For example, Hit was still U6's strongest member in the ToP until Kale and Caulifa fused. Berserker Kale might've been stronger than him but she only achieved her full power during that arc as well. It's not clear if Broly and FP Moro surpassed Jiren but if they did then both only surpassed him after the ToP. I think it's unlikely to be a random guy from another universe who is already more powerful than Jiren but no one knew about him and just decides to become a threat later.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Don't forget Piccolo and Kami, they were basically God and the Devil and Goku surpassed them. At the time for Dragon Ball fans it must have seemed like there couldn't be anyone stronger after that.

[DragonBallFoodie]

Didn't Beerus say something like this in Battle of Gods?

With other universes there are other Gokus, but since that idea's been done already Goku will need to find someone else.

[Skar]

Don't forget Piccolo and Kami, they were basically God and the Devil and Goku surpassed them. At the time for Dragon Ball fans it must have seemed like there couldn't be anyone stronger after that.

True but Toriyama did say Goku became the strongest on Earth at that point so he had them go out into the universe. I think Toriyama puts more thought into the escalation than he gets credit for. After surpassing the strongest in the universe, he didn't introduce an even stronger alien from a different planet and talked about a villain that "surpassed time". That sorta applies to Buu as well since he was the strongest in the past at the time.

What I did like about DBS is that it expanded to a multiverse and tried to give other universe antagonists motives for facing off against Goku. Hit and Jiren weren't evil and only antagonists due to the circumstance of the tournaments. I wasn't a big fan of Zamasu but I liked how he was given a motive to attack U7. If he was terrorizing a different universe only, it's unlikely Goku and Vegeta would be summoned to fight him and he would be the responsibility of that universe's heroes and GoD.

That might be why Broly and Moro originated in U7 because it's only way to have the Z fighters only ones fighting them. The only way a threat originating from another universe would come into contact with Goku and Vegeta without being a repeat of Zamasu is if it's a multiversal threat like Hearts. One thing I didn't understand is where the GoDs were when Hearts was gathering energy for those universe seeds. I assume they're supposed to be ones to take care of universal threats and most aren't as lazy as Beerus.

[The Undying]

OG manga-only fans of Freeza still like to say that he was technically the strongest mortal, disregarding the Kaioshin, Hakaishin, new creations like the Androids and magical beings such as Majin Buu. Yet even King Cold's second form was conjectured to be at least as strong as Freeza's mechanised final form by the Earthlings based on their ki.

Freeza was the strongest non-imprisoned mortal at the time though. In the manga, the Earthlings never specifically compare Cold's power to his son, but Freeza suggests twice during their invasion that he's the strongest in the universe; a claim that Cold doesn't dispute. Cold is also never implied to have further transformations in the source material.

Daizenshuu 7 spells it out rather directly by plainly stating Cold was inferior to Freeza.

This actually kind of segues into the topic at hand - after Toriyama went past the strongest enemy in the universe, he kept escalating those antagonists in ways that made enough sense. The Androids and Cell were future creations. Boo was an ancient sealed entity. In Super, Beerus was a god, most of the others were from different universes entirely, Broly was stranded, and Moro was imprisoned.

The main series doesn't inflate the scale quite as nonsensically as a couple of the 90's movies or GT, where Freeza is suddenly revealed to have a brother even stronger than him or there are random free-roaming aliens that can easily push Goku to Super Saiyan and beyond. Universe 7's more powerful threats, even if they existed during Freeza's reign, were very much impeded in some way. There's a reason Resurrection 'F' goes out of its way to state that Shisami, the strongest alien guy in his army, was only as strong as Zarbon and Dodoria in their prime.

That's not to say I don't agree with your main point. Although I think it should be done tastefully and with respect to the previous bad guys, Super can always make room for stronger ones.

[SupremeKai25]

Didn't Beerus say something like this in Battle of Gods?

With other universes there are other Gokus, but since that idea's been done already Goku will need to find someone else.

I assume you are referring to Goku Black, but Caulifla could also be seen as the U6's version of Goku. Their personalty is very similar.

[DevilKing99]

Questions like this are really hilarious when Broly came out of nowhere and went from under base Vegeta level, to under SSB Gogeta level in barely an hour.

[Draconic]

Vegeta would have been the second strongest mortal after Freeza in his Great Ape form. He was stronger than Ginyu even, Freeza's second in command. The next guys would be Cold and Freeza, who are pretty close together in power, though Freeza is probably stronger anyway. These characters never really boasted empty. They really were as strong as they acted. Beyond Freeza only Majin Buu would have been stronger. Beerus and Shin are Gods, so it doesn't really count, especially since they don't involve themselves in the affairs of mortals that much. Broly probably wouldn't have been that strong. He made huge leaps from fighting against Goku and Vegeta, which pushed him to those heights and, well, it would also have been with a decade less training. I guess there's Moro, but he's so ancient that I wouldn't count him either. He wasn't running around anyway to make any claim and he isn't that strong without sucking life in his old form. Yeah, Vegeta falls pretty hard if you count all these people, but Freeza would've still been a top dog.

[Psajdak]

Maybe it's time for reboot...

[Incarnate]

Android 17 went completely unnoticed on their own planet despite being Blue tier

Except he's not Blue tier.

[BWri]

Maybe it's time for reboot...

That R word, but if anything needs one, its DB. They could flesh out so much even as early as pre Raditz-DB.

[Jackalope89]

Maybe it's time for reboot...

Er, no. Just look at how muddled DC and Marvel have become overtime due to reboots. Even back when there was only 1 reboot, things were still a mess.

If anything, maybe release an official book or something that adds in certain retons that have happened over the years, like the Potara Fusion and what not.