When all is said and done, who was stronger: Super Perfect Cell or SSJ2 Gohan?

[Ash57]

If you want to ignore all the blatant evidence speaking for Cell, have it your way. That doesn't change what is stated.

[Incarnate]

Nothing stated suggests Super Perfect Cell, who DIED to 50% SS2 Gohan, is stronger.

You're just living in denial for whatever reason.

[Psajdak]

Of course it was Cell who was stronger; why do you think it took Mr. Satan to defeat him?

[Kaboom]

Incarnate, you're allowed to believe whatever you want about the subject. But this belligerent "you're all just in denial for disagreeing with what I've decided is true" routine is NOT going to fly, neither here nor in any other topic. Consider this a free, friendly, early warning to take it down a notch. Like I said on the first page, there's nothing forcing you to continue participating in the thread if you find it so frustrating.

[Ash57]

Aside from everything I've already pointed out beforehand from the Japanese anime, the Dragon Boxes, and even Cell's own feats in the manga, there's evidence from the Daizenshuu pointing towards Cell's superiority.

The Daizenshuu 2's Final Battles section refers to Cell's return to Earth as a "hopeless reversal play":

Spoiler:

'Reversal play' is an idiomatic expression on the same vein as "the situation has reversed" or "the tables have turned", in the sense that it is used to indicate when someone jumps from an inferior position to a superior position:

* To change from being in a weaker position in relation to someone else to being in a stronger position:

In other words, the Daizenshuu is basically flat-out stating here that Cell turned the situation upside down and become even more powerful than Gohan.

[Incarnate]

Like I said on the first page, there's nothing forcing you to continue participating in the thread if you find it so frustrating.

As I already stated, I'm only participating to show how pointless a thread like this is. This isn't and shouldn't be a debated topic, but people choose to ignore what the manga shows and tells us, because they have to in order to believe Cell, who was killed by 50% SS2 Gohan, is actually stronger. This topic also sets the precedent for people making other dumb and pointless threads like "was Mecha-Freeza actually stronger than SS1 Trunks?" following the same illogical line of thinking of people who actually lost fights being "stronger."

I'll tone it down though.

[Incarnate]

Aside from everything I've already pointed out beforehand from the Japanese anime, the Dragon Boxes, and even Cell's own feats in the manga, there's evidence from the Daizenshuu pointing towards Cell's superiority.

The Daizenshuu 2's Final Battles section refers to Cell's return to Earth as a "hopeless reversal play":

Spoiler:

'Reversal play' is an idiomatic expression on the same vein as "the situation has reversed" or "the tables have turned", in the sense that it is used to indicate when someone jumps from an inferior position to a superior position:

* To change from being in a weaker position in relation to someone else to being in a stronger position:

In other words, the Daizenshuu is basically flat-out stating here that Cell turned the situation upside down and become even more powerful than Gohan.

Do you have anything from the actual manga?

[Kaboom]

As I already stated, I'm only participating to show how pointless a thread like this is.

Well as a moderator, I'm asking nicely for you to not do that. It isn't having whatever effect you hoped for, and ultimately serving no purpose but to make the discussion bitter and make you look like a jerk. So please, if you have nothing to gain and nothing to actually contribute, then just leave it be.

[Grimlock]

Do you have anything from the actual manga?

You're looking for something that either isn't there or is vague enough (and open for different interpretations) for this thread to exist. Nothing really warrants Super Saiyan 2 Gohan being stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Cell (or vice-versa). All there is to it is a beam struggle that was compromised by external factors (Gohan's injury and Vegeta's attack).

It's not always we'll have an answer, and sometimes it's okay when we don't know the truth. It's not like knowing who's stronger is really that important anyway.

[Ash57]

There is, of course, the whole reason behind Gohan's injury to begin with: him getting hit with an attack that Cell himself described as 'casual' a few pages later, which wounded him so badly it cut his power to less than half its former glory.

The common counter-argument that he was off-guard is unfounded. He could have braced against it better than he did, yea, but he wasn't off-guard:

* He was using his full-power at the time, and flying towards Vegeta at full speed

* He had his aura up, coated with its lightning

* He was looking straight at the beam's trajectory before getting hit

Taking all that into account, it's pretty easy to deduce his energy/ki defenses were up. The attack was simply too powerful for him to resist, as he himself states shortly after the impact.

[Incarnate]

There is, of course, the whole reason behind Gohan's injury to begin with: him getting hit with an attack that Cell himself described as 'casual' a few pages later, which wounded him so badly it cut his power to less than half its former glory.

Cell never describes the attack meant to kill Vegeta as "casual," he never even comments on that attack outside of saying it's a bonus Gohan decided to jump in front of it last second and protect Vegeta, injuring himself in the process. Immediately after shooting that attack, that Gohan tanks, Cell charges up his Kamehameha and prepares to blow up the planet/solar system.

Maybe he calls that attack "casual" in anime filler? If so this really tells me the root of the problem here is the anime, and how it added a bunch of a filler that confuses people.

[Ash57]

Cell never describes the attack meant to kill Vegeta as "casual," he never even comments on that attack outside of saying it's a bonus

Spoiler:

お遊びはもうせんぞ...
すぐに 終わらせてやる....

Cell: I'm going to stop playing around [with you all]...And finish this straight away...

[Incarnate]

Cell never describes the attack meant to kill Vegeta as "casual," he never even comments on that attack outside of saying it's a bonus

Spoiler:

お遊びはもうせんぞ...
すぐに 終わらせてやる....

Cell: I'm going to stop playing around [with you all]...And finish this straight away...

Where does he say that attack was casual? Also he's referring to the fact that he killed Trunks and tried to kill Vegeta, instead of just blowing up the Earth / fighting Gohan.

[Ash57]

Where does he say that attack was casual? Also he's referring to the fact that he killed Trunks and tried to kill Vegeta, instead of just blowing up the Earth / fighting Gohan.

He's referring to both things.

If he had been playing around up until the point he started gathering the energy for his Solar Kamehameha, that means he hadn't been exerting himself for his previous attack. If he hadn't been exerting himself, then that means it was a 'casual', easily-fired attack by default. Regardless of the exact word you'd use to describe it, we know it was a very generic and uncharged attack.

[Cursed Lemon]

In other words, the Daizenshuu is basically flat-out stating here that Cell turned the situation upside down and become even more powerful than Gohan.

Or by fucking up Gohan's arm.

[Ash57]

In other words, the Daizenshuu is basically flat-out stating here that Cell turned the situation upside down and become even more powerful than Gohan.

Or by fucking up Gohan's arm.

The fact the image used to illustrate the statement is Cell saying he has vastly powered up right after he kills Trunks would go against that interpretation. If it had been referring to Gohan's arm, we would be shown an illustration of a bloodied Gohan after taking the attack instead.

Not to mention it specifies that it is referencing the events of Chapter 413 -- Gohan only gets his arm broken during Ch. 414, so that disproves it.

[Psajdak]

I wish Trunks was the MC of Android/Cell saga.

[Incarnate]

Where does he say that attack was casual? Also he's referring to the fact that he killed Trunks and tried to kill Vegeta, instead of just blowing up the Earth / fighting Gohan.

He's referring to both things.

No, he's quite clearly referring to the fact that he killed Trunks and tried to kill Vegeta, basically 'playing' with his food, instead of just blowing up the Earth and getting all of this done with. Nothing about his attack which intended to kill SS1 Vegeta, that Gohan tanked, being "casual." You were wrong, and your interpretation of a such simple statement is completely nonsensical.

[Lionel]

I feel inclined to restate this but are there any other examples of a limb injury such as Gohan's cutting their ki in half or some other fraction amount? Majin Vegeta was up against Buu under similar circumstances but I don't believe anyone came to the conclusion that he wasn't able to produce all of his power afterwards. Goku -- with all of his limbs rendered useless -- was still able to batter a Piccolo Jr that was raring to take on all of the fresh-faced humans as well as Kami. But even before then, Goku was able to continue fighting Piccolo despite having a large perforation in his upper torso region with bleed seeping out to the point that his vision was beginning to fade.

The only other instance where I've noticed fans argue that the loss of a limb noticeably severed a person's ki is Tenshinhan as he was using the Kikoho against Nappa.

[UI Peter]

First off, Perfect Cell was stronger than SSJ1 Gohan.

Headcanon. SS1 Gohan never fought Perfect Cell seriously and instead refused to fight because he didn't want to kill, not even someone as evil as Cell.

Second, SS2 is confirmed to be only a 2x boost over SS1.

Of course you're one of those people that see fights as nothing but numbers and powerlevels, when those have never mattered, even in the arc where they were introduced.

Third, Goku himself dismissed Gohan's claim about him losing 50% of his power after getting his arm broken.

Yeah, no. That never happens.

And fourth, SS2 Gohan was clearly losing the beam struggle with SP Cell

Again, that never happens. We are shown Super Perfect Cell's Kamehameha and 50% holding back SS2 Gohan's Kamehameha dead even. You're confusing anime filler with what actually happens.

So no, SP Cell being stronger than SS2 Gohan isn't farfetched at all.

Yes it is. You're arguing someone who killed their opponent with only one arm and 50% of their power is actually weaker than the person who died, do you not see how ridiculous that is?

Perfect Cell didnt even reveal his full power until after Gohan went SSJ2. To say SSJ1 Gohan was stronger than Perfect Cell is pure headcanon and it would have made SSJ2 pointless if true. It was Cell that was the one holding back until Gohan breaks his limits, not the other way around. You'd have to be a blind Gohan fanboy argue that he or anyone in the Cell Saga was stronger than Perfect Cell without SSJ2.

The "Power levels never mattered" myth is just pure headcanon and denialism. The fact is that in nearly every major DB fight the guy with the bigger power level/stronger transformation always wins unless there's some handicap shows that PLs DO matter, that raw power is the biggest factor in any DB fight and that it was never about "skill" or some theme message to the fights no matter much the anti-power level crowd denies this fact. And the Saiyan saga itself is the biggest example of this, like Goku owning Nappa simply because he had a bigger PL than him, Goku only getting an advantage on Vegeta once he uses KKx3 which boost his power above his, etc.

If Gohan lost 50% of his power then Goku wouldn't have believed that Gohan could uave beated SP Cell in his condition at all, its simple.

How and why the hell would Gohan be holding back in a life or death beam struggle against Cell when the fate of the universe is at stake? That is just extremely dumb.

YOU are the one ridiculous arguments bro. The only reason Gohan beat Cell in the beam struggle was because of Vegeta's off guard assist on Cell. This is clear in both versions of the scene.