Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[JulieYBM]

I haven't watched a full episode of the first three series in well over seven years at this point. Bare in mind, it's really gard for me to watch ANYTHING any more due to health stuff so I wonder how much of that is fans with health issues or DB being hard to watch.

[MasenkoHA]

[quote="they thing the fans have a low standards in anime for liking DB.

Those same people enjoy garbage like Naruto and My Hero Academia and One Piece so they can’t really talk.

[VegettoEX]

Those same people enjoy garbage like Naruto and My Hero Academia and One Piece so they can’t really talk.

Are you doing a bit of performance art following up on my previous comment about shouting loud to get attention?

I love Dragon Ball deeply and I simultaneously enjoy criticizing Dragon Ball, both as an individual piece of art as well as a larger piece of corporate production. I also enjoy One Piece; I just started a rewatch (well, I've never read/seen it all... fallen off multiple times since it began).

What is your response to me?

[MasenkoHA]

Those same people enjoy garbage like Naruto and My Hero Academia and One Piece so they can’t really talk.

Are you doing a bit of performance art following up on my previous comment about shouting loud to get attention?

I love Dragon Ball deeply and I simultaneously enjoy criticizing Dragon Ball, both as an individual piece of art as well as a larger piece of corporate production. I also enjoy One Piece; I just started a rewatch (well, I've never read/seen it all... fallen off multiple times since it began).

What is your response to me?

That I really don’t care what people watch and my comment was a facetious response to Jiren saying anime fans look down on Dragon Ball fans?

[Matches Malone]

Do you see Dragon Ball as a perfect series?,

if no, then why can't people point out it's flaws?,

if yes, then can i also say that you have low standards?

if Dragon Ball is good enough to stand on its own then why do the anime community look down on the Dragon Ball fans ?

Nothing's perfect.

Anyone can point out flaws.

There's a difference between something good having flaws (which is everything), and something that's mostly bad. What I mean by bad is all the writing "mistakes" made by the writers. For example, Vegeta saying he's out of power after blowing Toppo out of the ring, only to fully power up in the next episode. If you establish that 1+1=2, then I expect that to hold up. That's writing 101. Then you've got the production problems Super's known for, that even the staff are up front about.

I'd have to see some examples to say why.

As much as original Dragon Ball is glorified, does anyone actually goes to YT to rewatch its iconic scenes?

I don't because I re-watch DB and Kai once a year.

[UI Peter]

This video here really digs into that kind of mindset of "Well you think modern X is bad? Well the old X had the same issues too!"
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-wD-wMx54

Obviously it's mostly directed at the fans of Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who, but the same kind of thing can be applied to DB

This perfectly describes a lot of modern DB fans. There's nothing worse than trying to bring down the classics in order to justify the poor quality of today's modern remakes. If classic DB had the same (many) issues as modern DB, it wouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long as it did, much less turn into a timeless classic that inspired countless other manga. Don't get me wrong, you can enjoy modern DB, but please don't spread false information about it being just as good as what came before, or what came before having the same issues.

I think all changes are possible, what will get you is how these changes come/happen.

It's not that it can't happen, but rather fans being afraid of change.

I like Goku and Vegeta together. They play off each other well.

I do as well, but not all the time. This is all we've gotten since modern DB began. Why not separate them and show us how they'd act around different people ? Give us an arc where Goku needs to rely on Gohan and Piccolo for example, while they themselves have to find a way to bring themselves up to his level to be useful. How would Vegeta handle a situation where he's completely separated from the people he knows ? How would he deal with someone where under normal circumstances Goku would be there to help ? That's the kind of changes I'm talking about, taking these well established characters out of their comfort zone and putting them in situations they're not used to.

DB has had its day. It's not about the quality of the writer.

It is actually. A writer may not recapture what made DB a hit back in its day, but they can still do things to justify its return. Look at RF, are you going to tell me that it was the best thing they could've come up with to follow BOG ? I think any writer could've come up with a better follow up than that.

The reason DB was popular was because Goku was a goofy character in a edgy shonen jump, Goku MADE Dragon Ball popular, that's why Toriyama and Toei keep using him.

Classic Dragon Ball did have flaws just like modern Dragon Ball, both are popular so i still don't get this "low standards" that people are talking about, this thread title sounds really condescending, it sounds like some people don't like that mordern DB has fans so people shit on the them and say something like "you most have low standards if you like Super" or "you only like Super because of nostalgia" which is really ironic. And why chance something because of a vocal minority?

Early Shonen Jump was never edgy, and there have been plently of goofy anime/manga protagonists before Goku came around.

[VegettoEX]

Early Shonen Jump was never edgy, and there have been plently of goofy anime/manga protagonists before Goku came around.

Depending on what your definition of "edgy" is, you may simply not have the necessary historical context and knowledge to be making this kind of assessment (in which case I have to ask why you would be making it in the first place?). Have you ever actually held an older issue of Weekly Shonen Jump in your hands and perused its contents to see the breadth of content there? Say, one from 1983? This was the environment Dragon Ball was about to be published within.

[UI Peter]

Early Shonen Jump was never edgy, and there have been plently of goofy anime/manga protagonists before Goku came around.

Depending on what your definition of "edgy" is, you may simply not have the necessary historical context and knowledge to be making this kind of assessment (in which case I have to ask why you would be making it in the first place?). Have you ever actually held an older issue of Weekly Shonen Jump in your hands and perused its contents to see the breadth of content there? Say, one from 1983? This was the environment Dragon Ball was about to be published within.

The majority of series running on Jump at the time weren't edgy (edgy/dark series were the exception to the norm).

[VegettoEX]

The majority of series running on Jump at the time weren't edgy (edgy/dark series were the exception to the norm).

Whoops; you appear to have missed the link in my post! Here it is again. It contains a selection of photos from every comic running at the end of 1983 in Weekly Shonen Jump (I believe I got them all...). That's the 1983 No. 52 issue, part of our archive here at Kanzenshuu (and notable for its inclusion of The Adventure of Tongpoo). Note the graphic violence, attempted rape, crucifixion, and wacky sports hijinks. Dragon Ball would be published within a year's time.

[Matches Malone]

Those same people enjoy garbage like Naruto and My Hero Academia and One Piece so they can’t really talk.

I understand not liking them, but don't you think Garbage is a bit harsh ? How much of them have you seen to come to that conclusion ?

[Locust]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... %80%931984

A link of series that were around at the same time as Dr Slump/Dragon Ball

A lot (most?) of these are probably unfamiliar with a Western audience, but I've read a fair chunk of these cause I love retro manga, and can easily say - yeah, these manga had quite a lot of violence and sexual content
80s SJ was a very different beast to its current form, it's not accurate to say "edgy" series were a rarity

[LoganForkHands73]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... %80%931984

A link of series that were around at the same time as Dr Slump/Dragon Ball

A lot (most?) of these are probably unfamiliar with a Western audience, but I've read a fair chunk of these cause I love retro manga, and can easily say - yeah, these manga had quite a lot of violence and sexual content
80s SJ was a very different beast to its current form, it's not accurate to say "edgy" series were a rarity

Man... lists like these are a stark reminder of how the West are only exposed to a tiny fraction of Japanese media, especially comics. It's the same everywhere, with every country and culture, really. We think with the internet we know all there is to know and have access to everything there is. Only a tiny minority will have any clue what most of these titles were about. But it's so titillating knowing that there's so much out there, no?

To paraphrase a young Son Goku, there's a lot of manga out in the world.

I was reading a coffee table book about British comics which can be just as obscure. Many artists and writers in old anthology books, especially girls' mags, weren't credited at all and are lost to time. Sad really.

[Locust]

To paraphrase a young Son Goku, there's a lot of manga out in the world.

Simple solution - learn Japanese!

I kid, but yes, it's a real shame most were never brought to the West - a lot of these I would love to show to my friends, but a lot of my friends only speak English so... Impossible, sadly

[LoganForkHands73]

To paraphrase a young Son Goku, there's a lot of manga out in the world.

Simple solution - learn Japanese!

I can recite generic out-of-context lines that I've picked up from anime so I clearly know the entire language, fam.

[Planetnamek]

This video here really digs into that kind of mindset of "Well you think modern X is bad? Well the old X had the same issues too!"
--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH-wD-wMx54

Obviously it's mostly directed at the fans of Star Wars, Star Trek and Dr Who, but the same kind of thing can be applied to DB

Great video! It sums up my issue with modern sequels. Like he said, any minor criticism is usually met with false equivalencies or a cop-out that trashes the original series. This always raises the question of why are these considered classics in the first place if they're as bad as these fans make them out to be. Despite their flaws, they have enough merits that they're still appreciated many years later. That's why I think the countless other series within the same genres have been lost or forgotten over the years and no studio is looking to give them a sequel while these have remained timeless classics.

I feel no one involved in these sequels would claim they live up to the originals or believes these will be viewed years from now the same way the original is today. So much time has passed that almost everyone working on them was a fan growing up so I always expect fan service and more of a homage. I can still enjoy some modern sequels for what they are and try to have realistic expectations for them because it's difficult to recapture all the elements that made the original a classic. For example, Terminator 2 is considered one of the greatest sequels of all time. If it was never made back then and James Cameron decided to come out of retirement to make a sequel decades later, it won't be the same T2.

There's a limit to how much they can milk a franchise before it runs dry since a lot of sequels in recent years have failed to breakeven or didn't perform as well as expected . Still most of the top 10 grossing movies in recent years have been sequels or part of a franchise. I don't mind superhero movies as much because they have almost a century of comic book storylines to pull from. I prefer them over remakes an or sequels that continue a series after its end.

I agree that Super isn't as good as what came before, but I definitely strongly disagree with that video when it comes to Star Wars, fact is the original trilogy wasn't as acclaimed back then(Empire actually got mixed reviews from critics) and there was some backlash over those sequels too(people HATED the Ewoks in ROTJ), but since social media wasn't a thing back then many people who lionize the original trilogy and bash on the Disney films don't realize that. I'll gladly defend the new Star Wars films and the new Dr. Who.

Also the fact is the OT did have its flaws and there are a lot of people who view them through rose-tinted goggles and refuse to acknowledge that, and I see nothing wrong with pointing that out.

[LoganForkHands73]

I agree that Super isn't as good as what came before, but I definitely strongly disagree with that video when it comes to Star Wars, fact is the original trilogy wasn't as acclaimed back then(Empire actually got mixed reviews from critics) and there was some backlash over those sequels too(people HATED the Ewoks in ROTJ), but since social media wasn't a thing back then many people who lionize the original trilogy and bash on the Disney films don't realize that. I'll gladly defend the new Star Wars films and the new Dr. Who.

Also the fact is the OT did have its flaws and there are a lot of people who view them through rose-tinted goggles and refuse to acknowledge that, and I see nothing wrong with pointing that out.

Yeah, I've seen people old enough to have seen ROTJ in cinemas rag on it as an underwhelming finale. People seem to look back and think that all the original Star Wars movies were instantly legendary cornerstones of cinema, like a Biblical event beyond mortal recollection, when in fact they were just movies that came and went and had their detractors like everything else. There are older film nerds who hate the original Star Wars for essentially ending the New Hollywood movement. It's not all black-and-white. Tellingly, Star Wars is the main thing he focuses on.

Even as a fan of Doctor Who I can say even with enormous bias in favour of it that a fair majority of that show is pure crap. I hate to say it since the Classic 1963-89 era is sorely underrepresented and considered a Sacred Cow to some, but the quality control of writing, acting, production, continuity... just about everything, was nowhere near the level it is today and acting like it was always an amazing product is simply ludicrous. And it wasn't just a sign of the times, Doctor Who was often seen as a fairly embarrassing cultural landmark purely kept around for the small percentage of dedicated fans tuning in every week regardless of quality. Against the more consistently watchable or even good British television of the era -- the I, Claudiuses and Avengers (not the Marvel lot), it struggled to stay relevant with often abysmal special effects and poorly-paced serialised storylines dragging out for at least four weeks.

The main reasons old Doctor Who made the impact it did are because it has a winning formula with seemingly limitless possibilities and because it genuinely was a huge hit when it first came out, mainly thanks to the iconography of the Daleks. However, every story was a roulette wheel in terms of quality. When you got a good story, it could be reeeeallll gooooddd. But most of the time, you'd be sitting through the same shitty sets, embarrassingly bad monsters and uninspired writing week after week. Sure, the quality started to pick up towards the end, but with utter garbage like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUCSlb-jhsU slipping through, it's hard to see why it was eventually cancelled. Let's face it, most people still love Modern Who because it was simply better quality television. At least Modern Who has the courtesy to not stretch things out for more than two episodes, three max.

[Grimlock]

And that, whether done slowly or quickly, just goes against the entire idea of Goku being the constant that changes very little (or very slowly). It's through Goku's actions that other characters end up going through their really cool arcs. He's the one constant in the universe that, though how he interacts with them, causes all these other characters to become better people. It's like the entire point of why he remains relatively unchanged.

I understand that. But there will always be the big questions we "should" (?) ask:

• Do we really need that theme to keep playing forever and ever until the judgement day?
• Is there no other way to at least and somehow update that "core theme"?
• If all of this is intended for younger/future generations? If so, shouldn't we just present to them what we had back in the day while they appreciate whatever theme they might have?

I think nothing in this world is meant to last forever. It was really great all this concept Dragon Ball had back in the 80s and 90s, 20th century. We're not in that time period anymore. Maybe it's okay when/if Goku couldn't change others around him (I mean, again, do we really need all these evil entities switching to the good side? It was okay with Vegeta and Piccolo but... when is it gonna end? When Freeza joins the good side?), or it might be okay if someone else carries on that mantle (obviously in a different way, otherwise it would be pointless, a "false change").

It's like taking Jackie Chan out of Jackie Chan movies. The random props on set aren't gonna fight the bad guys on their own.

Yeah, I guess, maybe you can't remove the title character out of the what originates him even by name. Not the case with Dragon Ball, which is called Dragon Ball. Not Goku Ball or Dragon Goku. You can switch Goku right from the very beginning and tell the same story. It's not him, it's this abstract thing he may "represent", and I believe what this thing is can be carried out onto someone else, be passed down, reborn, something like that.

It's not that it can't happen, but rather fans being afraid of change.

Why? Some antecedence to that? If so, okay, there are works out there that changed for the worse and they may be afraid something similar happens to what they love. But there are also works out there that changed... Well, I won't say "for the better" but they certainly kept the quality, I am referring to Legend of Korra, as an example. Such a great series.

[ABED]

It's called Dragon Ball but it's not about the Dragon Balls

Yeah, I guess, maybe you can't remove the title character out of the what originates him even by name. Not the case with Dragon Ball, which is called Dragon Ball. Not Goku Ball or Dragon Goku. You can switch Goku right from the very beginning and tell the same story. It's not him, it's this abstract thing he may "represent", and I believe what this thing is can be carried out onto someone else, be passed down, reborn, something like that.

People fall in love with characters. That's the most important thing in any story. You can't just swap main characters after a sustained run.

I think nothing in this world is meant to last forever.

Exactly, like Dragon Ball.

[Skar]

I agree that Super isn't as good as what came before, but I definitely strongly disagree with that video when it comes to Star Wars, fact is the original trilogy wasn't as acclaimed back then(Empire actually got mixed reviews from critics) and there was some backlash over those sequels too(people HATED the Ewoks in ROTJ), but since social media wasn't a thing back then many people who lionize the original trilogy and bash on the Disney films don't realize that. I'll gladly defend the new Star Wars films and the new Dr. Who.

Also the fact is the OT did have its flaws and there are a lot of people who view them through rose-tinted goggles and refuse to acknowledge that, and I see nothing wrong with pointing that out.

I was agreeing with the general point of the video but I don't think the ST is as bad as some diehard fans feel it is. I'm more of casual fan of SW in general though so I wouldn't be judging it for the same reasons I guess. I've only watched the original trilogy twice and only other SW media I've seen were the Family Guy and Robot Chicken parodies. I watched all five of the Disney SW for the first time this year. A lot of people complain about there being too many sequels and revivals then support them by watching them in theaters. If you're not a fan of this trend then I say wait until they're available on streaming. I was able to avoid spoilers since I have Twitter and didn't click on articles about them.

The ST wasn't that bad in my opinion but nothing all the memorable either. To be honest, I thought it was the same formula as these other modern sequels or reboots with a somewhat derivative story and an overreliance on nostalgia. I didn't think it justified bringing back the original cast and would've preferred if their ending was left alone. Liea and Han drifted apart, Luke became a hermit, and Palpatine survived or cloned somehow I forgot which. Besides that, I liked most of the new cast and thought it was entertaining enough to kill time. I just didn't feel it had enough going for it to standout from the original and have the same longevity.

[Goten_jr]

[quote="they thing the fans have a low standards in anime for liking DB.

Those same people enjoy garbage like Naruto and My Hero Academia and One Piece so they can’t really talk.

One Piece garbage... come on