Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[WittyUsername]

Since we’re talking about Star Wars, I’m going to say that the ST was honestly pretty pointless when you think about it. The OT was by no means perfect, especially when it comes to RotJ, but the ST doesn’t really have much to offer, outside of retreading much of the same ground as the old movies, without really offering anything new or worthwhile to the universe. For all the talk about how bold and innovative TLJ was, it still rehashed much of the same beats from TESB, and even RotJ. Frankly, the only thing the ST really accomplished was undoing the happy endings for Han, Luke and Leia, and cheapening Anakin’s sacrifice.

Frankly, modern Dragon Ball is actually better than the Star Wars sequels in that regard. While I can’t entirely say that I find it necessary, I at least can’t deny that modern Dragon Ball has genuinely expanded the lore of the franchise. Sure, it rehashes a lot of the old stuff as well, but stuff like the Gods of Destruction, Super Saiyan God, the multiverse, a battle royale, and Ultra Instinct are certainly concepts that the franchise didn’t have before, even if I’m not always crazy about the execution.

[ABED]

much like current Star Wars, I don't think any new DB will make me feel the way the original did (BoG and TLJ being the outliers), but as long as it's enjoyable, I'll watch.

[UI Peter]

The majority of series running on Jump at the time weren't edgy (edgy/dark series were the exception to the norm).

Whoops; you appear to have missed the link in my post! Here it is again. It contains a selection of photos from every comic running at the end of 1983 in Weekly Shonen Jump (I believe I got them all...). That's the 1983 No. 52 issue, part of our archive here at Kanzenshuu (and notable for its inclusion of The Adventure of Tongpoo). Note the graphic violence, attempted rape, crucifixion, and wacky sports hijinks. Dragon Ball would be published within a year's time.

All of that type of content can be found on modern shonen too, even in series that aren't intentionally super serious.

[UI Peter]

[quote="they thing the fans have a low standards in anime for liking DB.

Those same people enjoy garbage like Naruto and My Hero Academia and One Piece so they can’t really talk.

None of those series are garbage, in fact, most of the later 2 (and half of Naruto) generally has better storytelling & writing than Dragonball does.

[Planetnamek]

Since we’re talking about Star Wars, I’m going to say that the ST was honestly pretty pointless when you think about it. The OT was by no means perfect, especially when it comes to RotJ, but the ST doesn’t really have much to offer, outside of retreading much of the same ground as the old movies, without really offering anything new or worthwhile to the universe. For all the talk about how bold and innovative TLJ was, it still rehashed much of the same beats from TESB, and even RotJ. Frankly, the only thing the ST really accomplished was undoing the happy endings for Han, Luke and Leia, and cheapening Anakin’s sacrifice.

Frankly, modern Dragon Ball is actually better than the Star Wars sequels in that regard. While I can’t entirely say that I find it necessary, I at least can’t deny that modern Dragon Ball has genuinely expanded the lore of the franchise. Sure, it rehashes a lot of the old stuff as well, but stuff like the Gods of Destruction, Super Saiyan God, the multiverse, a battle royale, and Ultra Instinct are certainly concepts that the franchise didn’t have before, even if I’m not always crazy about the execution.

Hard disagree on that, Moviebob did an video review on TLJ that perfectly sums up why it's so great:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf_rqde7B0A

[JulieYBM]

It's okay for someone to think the thing you like sucks.

[Matches Malone]

Why? Some antecedence to that? If so, okay, there are works out there that changed for the worse and they may be afraid something similar happens to what they love. But there are also works out there that changed... Well, I won't say "for the better" but they certainly kept the quality, I am referring to Legend of Korra, as an example. Such a great series.

I'm not talking about a change that would make DB unrecognizable, but rather change the status quo up and take the character out of their comfort zones. I want DB to go back to the way it was during the manga, where things were always moving ahead and characters were put in different situations.

[ABED]

Dunno about that. DB settles into a formula by DBZ.

[KBABZ]

Dunno about that. DB settles into a formula by DBZ.

I agree here: Daimao introduced the Villain Arc format and the series has never really looked back (or forward, haha). Every storyline after this uses this format, and the ones that don't are either abandoned early (Saiyaman and Black Star) or incredibly short (Other World Tournament, that weird mini arc after Super 17).

[ABED]

Dunno about that. DB settles into a formula by DBZ.

I agree here: Daimao introduced the Villain Arc format and the series has never really looked back (or forward, haha). Every storyline after this uses this format, and the ones that don't are either abandoned early (Saiyaman and Black Star) or incredibly short (Other World Tournament, that weird mini arc after Super 17).

Toriyama also takes Goku out of play early on his friends wait for him to arrive to save the day. He does it twice in the Freeza arc.

[Banduck]

Toriyama also takes Goku out of play early on his friends wait for him to arrive to save the day. He does it twice in the Freeza arc.

The second time in Freeza Arc was really too much. But other than that I always found it believable/not forced.

[Skar]

It's okay for someone to think the thing you like sucks.

Indeed . This is why I try to be more of a casual fan with other franchises and avoid online fanbases. It's fun to discussion the series, come up with theories, post fanart and parodies, and whatnot but a lot of time is spent defending what you like and criticizing what you don't like. Nothing wrong with that but you don't want to reach the point that you no longer enjoy engaging with other fans.

If you like something and had fun watching it, no need to justify it by bringing down something else. I liked both MCU and Zack Snyder's DCEU films and I thought most of them were an entertaining escape from reality. I think a lot of their criticism is valid from both sides though. Still I'll keep watching until I no longer get any entertainment out of them.

[coola]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... %80%931984

A link of series that were around at the same time as Dr Slump/Dragon Ball

A lot (most?) of these are probably unfamiliar with a Western audience, but I've read a fair chunk of these cause I love retro manga, and can easily say - yeah, these manga had quite a lot of violence and sexual content
80s SJ was a very different beast to its current form, it's not accurate to say "edgy" series were a rarity

Man... lists like these are a stark reminder of how the West are only exposed to a tiny fraction of Japanese media, especially comics. It's the same everywhere, with every country and culture, really. We think with the internet we know all there is to know and have access to everything there is. Only a tiny minority will have any clue what most of these titles were about. But it's so titillating knowing that there's so much out there, no?

To paraphrase a young Son Goku, there's a lot of manga out in the world.

I was reading a coffee table book about British comics which can be just as obscure. Many artists and writers in old anthology books, especially girls' mags, weren't credited at all and are lost to time. Sad really.

That's one of reasons, I'm glad fantranslation/fansubs exist. There is Discotek Media and some other companies, that release oldschool anime and manga, but..its still only small fraction, and its like with piracy, some games and other pieces of media would be lost forever, if someone didnt archive them and make it possible to watch/play in modern devices.

I guess overall, I'm burned out with Dragon Ball, it feels like Goku doesn't evolve as character, in contrary, he gets worse or never learns, one of things i like in anime, is watching character evolve and change, with Goku..there is none of that, or regression.

[Matches Malone]

It feels like Goku doesn't evolve as character, in contrary, he gets worse or never learns, one of things i like in anime, is watching character evolve and change, with Goku..there is none of that, or regression.

I completely agree, and what makes it worse is how much he developed in the original manga and even the movie that kick started this revival, BOG.

[VegettoEX]

All of that type of content can be found on modern shonen too, even in series that aren't intentionally super serious.

Whoops! You appear to be changing the subject. Be careful as you craft your responses; you wouldn't want people to think you're moving the goalpost.

Much of the material there seen in the 1983 Weekly Shonen Jump (which is what we were discussing; not "modern shonen" as a whole) has been somewhat softly re-classified as seinen.

Did you want to change the subject and discuss modern shonen as a whole? Have you looked at a recent issue of Weekly Shonen Jump? I would love to do an accompanying photo set comparing 1983 with 2020; let me know if this is something you need, or if you do have any on hand yourself to compare.

[kemuri07]

It feels like Goku doesn't evolve as character, in contrary, he gets worse or never learns, one of things i like in anime, is watching character evolve and change, with Goku..there is none of that, or regression.

I completely agree, and what makes it worse is how much he developed in the original manga and even the movie that kick started this revival, BOG.

Goku from the Piccolo Jr. arc is easily the best interpretation of that character. He's charismatic as all hell and the thing that arc really pushes is how much of a genius Battle strategist the kid is. Unfortunately, I think that kinda disappears in Z, and is all but gone in Super with the appearance of "Jerk-Ass Goku."

But it is the inevitable consequence of a character who can't evolve and can't learn.

[kemuri07]

Moving away from Goku will not be good for Dragon Ball. He's the emotional spine of the story.

Which is pretty much my initial point: DB is dead without Goku. But including Goku basically means that the series can never evolve. It just becomes more of the same.

If he has to go away then it's not Dragon Ball.

And maybe that's for the best. Realistically, there's never going to be a spin-off that captures what made Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball. Hell, even Dragon Ball at its best (either the movies or the manga-shut up, fight me) are just re-workings of the same shit we've seen time and time again. If you are going to make a new series that gets away from Goku and crew: Why not make one with Broly?

I think the Broly movie, despite my own feelings about it, leaves Broly with a lot of potential. Basically I can see Broly being the total inverse of Goku. Whereas Goku embraces his Saiyan heritage and love of fighting, Broly's memories leave him conflicting. Fighting only ensures that he'll hurt people and the scars that his father placed on him will always be with him. I think it solves the power creep problem by making Broly a literal ticking time bomb, but it's also a clever way to deal with some of the themes of Dragon Ball and turn them on their heads.

[Matches Malone]

Goku from the Piccolo Jr. arc is easily the best interpretation of that character. He's charismatic as all hell and the thing that arc really pushes is how much of a genius Battle strategist the kid is.

We saw him use strategy against Freeza as well, such as taking advantage of him not being able to sense Ki. He was also very strategic against Cell when he gave him a senz...never mind.

[WittyUsername]

Since we’re talking about Star Wars, I’m going to say that the ST was honestly pretty pointless when you think about it. The OT was by no means perfect, especially when it comes to RotJ, but the ST doesn’t really have much to offer, outside of retreading much of the same ground as the old movies, without really offering anything new or worthwhile to the universe. For all the talk about how bold and innovative TLJ was, it still rehashed much of the same beats from TESB, and even RotJ. Frankly, the only thing the ST really accomplished was undoing the happy endings for Han, Luke and Leia, and cheapening Anakin’s sacrifice.

Frankly, modern Dragon Ball is actually better than the Star Wars sequels in that regard. While I can’t entirely say that I find it necessary, I at least can’t deny that modern Dragon Ball has genuinely expanded the lore of the franchise. Sure, it rehashes a lot of the old stuff as well, but stuff like the Gods of Destruction, Super Saiyan God, the multiverse, a battle royale, and Ultra Instinct are certainly concepts that the franchise didn’t have before, even if I’m not always crazy about the execution.

Hard disagree on that, Moviebob did an video review on TLJ that perfectly sums up why it's so great:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf_rqde7B0A

MovieBob has a lot of opinions that I disagree with.

Anyway, I think modern Dragon Ball is getting stale, despite the aforementioned new additions it’s made to the lore.

[Freeza Soldier #156]

Goku from the Piccolo Jr. arc is easily the best interpretation of that character. He's charismatic as all hell and the thing that arc really pushes is how much of a genius Battle strategist the kid is. Unfortunately, I think that kinda disappears in Z, and is all but gone in Super with the appearance of "Jerk-Ass Goku."

But it is the inevitable consequence of a character who can't evolve and can't learn.

Completely agreed. I’ve always thought Goku was at his best in the 23rd Tournament. Toriyama found a perfect balance between Goku’s naive childishness and his, though we don’t know it yet, Saiyan instinct for battle. This is something the Super writers fail greatly at. They just don’t really seem to understand the character much at all. They want to write naive Goku but instead end up with “Stupid Goku”.