What Inconsistencies &/or Retcons You Wished Were Never Made In Dragon Ball Super?

[Skar]

I mean it's not like Hearts' plan was so smart or intricate, in fact it was very lacking. Even if Hearts recognized the threat of Zeno, he completely glossed over the mortal warriors of Universe 6, 7, 11. Hearts' plan would've failed miserably if it wasn't for Fused Zamasu protecting him against everyone while he was inside the universe seed. So just like you can commend Hearts for making plans to deal with Zeno, at the same time it's not like he thought of everything.

His plan was lacking because he was an underdeveloped video game villain but my point was that he at least had a plan against Zeno. I used him as an example because I felt that was the bare minimum standard for that concept. If you compare Zamasu to other fallen angels or "templar knights" in fiction, I don't think he would rank highly in terms of development and complexity. I thought Zamasu checks off some of common traits they have but it doesn't go much deeper than that.

Of course that's only my opinion. I just feel like you take any criticism towards Zamasu personally. You weren't just sharing your own theories as to what Zamasu might've done about Zeno but trying to convince me that I should believe them even though I didn't see any evidence that they were likely to happen. I know we might feel the need to justify something is good by convincing other people but it shouldn't matter when it comes down to preference. For example, I enjoyed DBS Broly but I know others don't share this opinion and some believe it was lacking and doesn't offer much besides fan service. I thought it was a simple, fun story and fitting since DBS is a midquel. I could offer my perspective but I'm not going to try to change their opinion of the movie because those arguments usually continue for severally pages and they're less convinced by the end of it.

[JewyB]

I'm torn because i believe two things deep down in my heart: That inconsistencies and retcons are basically dragon balls lifeblood and give it its "loose" charm, and pretending they only exist in Super is the most dishonest line of thinking going. I also believe that retcons can't retroactively ruin a product, so i take them on the nose, at the moment without letting them affect the previous story.

That being said, the two main things that did irk me were Gohan's ultimate form becoming a form(This means that potential is a form and not yourself?), and the potara becoming temporary(This just lessens the stakes and i like having at least one stake occasionally). These are just more nitpicks and personal preference in storytelling than anything, and there's nothing in the original that states they aren't possible so complaining about them is, in my opinion, a more personal thing as opposed to an objective thing.

[ChronoTwigger]

The very first one.

Beerus caused dinosaurs extinction on Earth.

Dinosaurs are there.

From that point onward, I had the idea they rushed the product a bit.

[Tai Lung]

Trunks doesn't have Kaioshin powers. He has the powers belonging to those who are appointed to serve the Kaioshin.

he is a kaioshin apprentice .. same as kibito and zamasu which belong to the same race of the creator gods

Yes, but that's not the same as having 'Kaioshin powers' - Kaioshin is just a position that special Shin-jin occupy. Shin states that he was himself apprenticed to the Dai Kaioshin, and had the power to restore at the time, but then he lost that power when he became an actual Kaioshin. Those powers belong to the position of attendant/apprentice, not the Shin-jin species.

And it's becoming a Kaioshin that Toriyama has said can only be done from birth, not the powers that are granted to their attendants/apprentices. Trunks having those powers isn't inconsistent with anything else I've seen.

it makes no sense that there are "apprentices" if they had not been chosen to be a supreme Kai at some point and the apprentices range is supposed to be just one precess to be formally one
shin doesn't lose his teleportation skills
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https://I'm-pack-yak.inmanga.com/images/ ... 43c770faf0
in fact ... the claim that they are born should only state that other races should not even be apprentices because they will never become one

that should also negate the possibility of a kaio becoming supreme kaio as was suggested by toyotaro with zamasu

[Skar]

I'm torn because i believe two things deep down in my heart: That inconsistencies and retcons are basically dragon balls lifeblood and give it its "loose" charm, and pretending they only exist in Super is the most dishonest line of thinking going.

Are they really a charm though? I could be misinterpreting your point but usually an authors try to avoid inconsistencies because all it does is take the reader out of the story momentarily and make them think "Huh I guess the author overlooked or forgot this detail". It doesn't ruin the story but doesn't really provide any benefit. Same with retcons because there's a difference between a retcon that feels like it's revealing new information and accounts for why a character may not have known this before and one that may unintentionally contradict previous information.

In my opinion, if an inconsistency or retcon could be easily removed without affecting the story then I don't believe it provides a benefit or was intentional. I definitely Toriyama tries to keep the story consistent and contradictions are usually due to forgetting details as he's coming up with ideas and completely a chapter each week. For example he said he thought it through to make it consistent after deciding on Goku and Piccolo's origins.

[Magnificent Ponta]

it makes no sense that there are "apprentices" if they had not been chosen to be a supreme Kai at some point and the apprentices range is supposed to be just one precess to be formally one

That's not at all clear. There's no indication, for instance, that Kibito is pegged to become a Kaioshin at some future date - he just serves the Kaioshin, and has powers that go with that role. Trunks is the same. What's more, he specifically says the position given him was only ever temporary, so becoming a Kaioshin was never on the cards, and the power to heal still isn't a 'Kaioshin power' - it's one specific to the position Trunks is given (and accordingly, it's stated he'll lose it when he renounces the position). I'm not sure why this is a problem, as far as you're concerned, as so far this all seems pretty straightforward.

shin doesn't lose his teleportation skills

Technically (see previous posts in this topic), he didn't have them in the first place. The original series declares teleportation is Kibito's ability, not Shin's. It's really a retcon that this ability belongs to Kaioshin. Which would explain why Trunks doesn't have it now, despite being appointed to serve the Kaioshin.

that should also negate the possibility of a kaio becoming supreme kaio as was suggested by toyotaro with zamasu

Ah, now this really is a retcon/inconsistency with what Toriyama has said previously (not that he's been fully consistent himself), unless Zamas has been a Shin-jin born from a golden fruit (but for some reason appointed to become a Kaio - technically, there's nothing to say that these golden Shin-jin have to be chosen as Kaioshin, if the position is already taken).

[JewyB]

I'm torn because i believe two things deep down in my heart: That inconsistencies and retcons are basically dragon balls lifeblood and give it its "loose" charm, and pretending they only exist in Super is the most dishonest line of thinking going.

Are they really a charm though? I could be misinterpreting your point but usually an authors try to avoid inconsistencies because all it does is take the reader out of the story momentarily and make them think "Huh I guess the author overlooked or forgot this detail". It doesn't ruin the story but doesn't really provide any benefit. Same with retcons because there's a difference between a retcon that feels like it's revealing new information and accounts for why a character may not have known this before and one that may unintentionally contradict previous information.

In my opinion, if an inconsistency or retcon could be easily removed without affecting the story then I don't believe it provides a benefit or was intentional. I definitely Toriyama tries to keep the story consistent and contradictions are usually due to forgetting details as he's coming up with ideas and completely a chapter each week. For example he said he thought it through to make it consistent after deciding on Goku and Piccolo's origins.

Yep, you're definitely missing my point. I'm not saying that it makes the story well written or gives it incredible integrity, i know its a major issue, but with Dragon Ball its something that has been with it since day 1, and has its routes in its origins as a gag manga. So whilst, in the majority of cases, i dont like breaches of continuity or anything, i think it at least fits with Toriyama's writing style and contributes to what makes Dragon Balls storytelling unique, and also makes the story feel slightly more alive imo, with life being a series of random events, characters will make mistakes and act out of character, just like regular humans.

There are obviously better and worse examples, but like you say, its down to Toriyama "forgetting" possibly, its just how he writes. Is it perfect? By no means, but is it a writing style i grew up with and kind of what i expect from DB? For sure. If Dragon Ball was suddenly written with the consistency and depth of something like Berserk at its best of times, i would feel far more uncomfortable watching it because it wouldn't feel like the series i grew up with, even if, objectively speaking, it was being better written.

It's a huge justification for sure, but its my reasoning behind why in this particular series(and one of my favourite book series, which has a very similar writing style) i am willing to accept. I suppose my suspension of disbelief is higher for Dragon Ball because it has stretched it out since the beginning?

Also, this is entirely subjective either way, of course.

[Skar]

Yep, you're definitely missing my point. I'm not saying that it makes the story well written or gives it incredible integrity, i know its a major issue, but with Dragon Ball its something that has been with it since day 1, and has its routes in its origins as a gag manga. So whilst, in the majority of cases, i dont like breaches of continuity or anything, i think it at least fits with Toriyama's writing style and contributes to what makes Dragon Balls storytelling unique, and also makes the story feel slightly more alive imo, with life being a series of random events, characters will make mistakes and act out of character, just like regular humans.

I do think Toriyama did a good job of keeping things consistent for ten years especially for someone writes as he goes along and admits to having bad memory. I wouldn't be against removing inconsistencies since I can't think of any that feel benefited the story but I get that it's subjective. I try not to think about them too much and assume it's something overlooked.

The original series was different than what we have today since that was entirely drawn and written by Toriyama with occasional suggestions from his editors. Aside from the three screenplays, he's only writing outlines so the end products don't only include his ideas. I know it's claimed he approves everything but giving a blanket approval isn't the same as writing every detail and line of dialogue himself.

I'm more forgiving of inconsistencies from Toriyama than Toei and Toyotaro. If Toriyama had bad memory in his 30's and 40's while working on the manga, it's not going improve when he's over 60 same with pretty much all people as they age. Toei's current staff and Toyotaro don't really have this excuse since most are as old as Toriyama back then. They're given an entire outline and not having to write as they go along so they have the opportunity to better plan what to expand on. It's a little frustrating when they add something and end up contradicting it themselves because they're likely not part of the outline which means they could easily be left out without affecting the story.

[Thani]

I mean it's not like Hearts' plan was so smart or intricate, in fact it was very lacking. Even if Hearts recognized the threat of Zeno, he completely glossed over the mortal warriors of Universe 6, 7, 11. Hearts' plan would've failed miserably if it wasn't for Fused Zamasu protecting him against everyone while he was inside the universe seed. So just like you can commend Hearts for making plans to deal with Zeno, at the same time it's not like he thought of everything.

His plan was lacking because he was an underdeveloped video game villain but my point was that he at least had a plan against Zeno. I used him as an example because I felt that was the bare minimum standard for that concept. If you compare Zamasu to other fallen angels or "templar knights" in fiction, I don't think he would rank highly in terms of development and complexity. I thought Zamasu checks off some of common traits they have but it doesn't go much deeper than that.

Of course that's only my opinion. I just feel like you take any criticism towards Zamasu personally. You weren't just sharing your own theories as to what Zamasu might've done about Zeno but trying to convince me that I should believe them even though I didn't see any evidence that they were likely to happen. I know we might feel the need to justify something is good by convincing other people but it shouldn't matter when it comes down to preference. For example, I enjoyed DBS Broly but I know others don't share this opinion and some believe it was lacking and doesn't offer much besides fan service. I thought it was a simple, fun story and fitting since DBS is a midquel. I could offer my perspective but I'm not going to try to change their opinion of the movie because those arguments usually continue for severally pages and they're less convinced by the end of it.

You know what's hilarious? For all of Heart's posturing that he would use the Universe Seed to dethrone the King of All, he was still defeated rather easily by Gogeta, who at this point shouldn't be stronger than an angel. His plan was doomed to fail before he could even get to the little guys. He really does scream undeveloped video game villain haha

that should also negate the possibility of a kaio becoming supreme kaio as was suggested by toyotaro with zamasu

I think this is the worst offender, yeah. If a kaioshin is born from the golden fruit, then Zamasu doesn't make sense as the north kaioh. Honestly they should just retire this piece of lore and say "The Shinjin can come in many shapes and forms".

[SupremeKai25]

Well Zamasu was chosen as apprentice simply because he was a natural prodigy and fighting genius (before that he was indeed only North Kai). Despite being very young, he was already more powerful than every other Supreme Kai in the cosmos, and even Goku recognized that Shin wouldn't last nearly as long as Zamasu did vs. a Super Saiyan 2 post-BoG. So really even if there's a rule that Supreme Kais can only come from golden fruits, Zamasu would be considered a rare exception. There are times when a certain person is so gifted and talented that rules don't apply to them.

[Koitsukai]

I always thought Kibito and Trunks were more like assistants than padawans, which is what they seem to do. Even Zamasu behaves like an assistant, while being an apprentice unlike the other two.

About the shin-jin fruit and Kaio Zamasu, I explained to myself that the golden fruit might grow not only on Kaioshin Kai, although it probably should be Kaioshin Kai exclusive. That, or maybe we shouldn't take Toriyama's interviews to heart because he isn't as consistent in those as we'd like him to be, and we should just stick to the show.

[Skar]

You know what's hilarious? For all of Heart's posturing that he would use the Universe Seed to dethrone the King of All, he was still defeated rather easily by Gogeta, who at this point shouldn't be stronger than an angel. His plan was doomed to fail before he could even get to the little guys. He really does scream undeveloped video game villain haha

Yeah, he definitely underestimated the power of those Universe Seeds . It would've made more sense if he said he needed to gather more of them and he was defeated after the first Universe Seed. I thought he was an interesting concept but needed a lot of work.

[theherodjl]

In his defense, Hearts did eradicate a powerful, immortal being like Zamasu with a gesture. It previously took Future Zeno to wipe Zamasu out so I can kind of get why Hearts would be high on his own power.

[SupremeKai25]

In his defense, Hearts did eradicate a powerful, immortal being like Zamasu with a gesture. It previously took Future Zeno to wipe Zamasu out so I can kind of get why Hearts would be high on his own power.

Which was BS writing. From my understanding Fused Zamasu appears in Heroes because he managed to survive Zeno's erasure technique. So it makes no sense that Hearts is able to erase Fused Zamasu when Zeno failed (in Heroes timeline). That was a bad move by Heroes writers, such a cheap and lazy way to get rid of him, all because Hearts needed to be the final boss.

But maybe Fused Zamasu is in Hell, perhaps he was not erased but just disintegrated like Hearts. I saw some pics of Hearts appearing in Hell in the newest arc of Heroes, so maybe Fused Zamasu also went there and wasn't actually erased from existence.

[LoganForkHands73]

I mean, if the Heroes version of Zamasu could somehow survive getting erased down to the last atom by Zeno simply by someone sticking a few robotic parts on him, it's fairly safe to say that he has the strongest Joker Immunity known to man or god.

Seriously, I cracked up for ages when they first revealed him in Heroes. They don't even try to explain it, he's just back somehow. All Mecha-Freeza'd up. "It's okay guys, they rebuilt me", yeah but rebuilt you from what? How are you still here?

[theherodjl]

Which was BS writing. From my understanding Fused Zamasu appears in Heroes because he managed to survive Zeno's erasure technique. So it makes no sense that Hearts is able to erase Fused Zamasu when Zeno failed (in Heroes timeline). That was a bad move by Heroes writers, such a cheap and lazy way to get rid of him, all because Hearts needed to be the final boss.

But maybe Fused Zamasu is in Hell, perhaps he was not erased but just disintegrated like Hearts. I saw some pics of Hearts appearing in Hell in the newest arc of Heroes, so maybe Fused Zamasu also went there and wasn't actually erased from existence.

I like to think that Zamasu lost his true immortality when Zeno erased his infinite form, leaving him susceptible to death and even a second erasure with the sliver of a physical form that he had left. Getting most of his existence erased by Zeno either downgraded Zamasu's immortality or negated it entirely as a result of an unstoppable force(Zeno) colliding with an immovable object(Super Shenlong).

[SupremeKai25]

Did Hearts even use that plot hax erasure technique again? Or did he only use it as a quick way to get rid of Zamasu so that he could ascend to final boss status? Why didn't he just use that technique on Gogeta, Jiren, or Hit and be done with it? I believe he started throwing around some meteors, but frankly a technique that seems to rival Zeno's would be much more useful.

Now here's an actual inconsistency, but then again Heroes was just a 10 minutes long promotional anime, so I don't want to be too critical of it.

[Koitsukai]

But wasn't Jiren blowing Zamasu away constantly and he kept coming back? Heroes is known for contradicting itself, so it's possible but when we saw him fight his immortality seemed to be working perfectly fine.

[Tai Lung]

it makes no sense that there are "apprentices" if they had not been chosen to be a supreme Kai at some point and the apprentices range is supposed to be just one precess to be formally one

That's not at all clear. There's no indication, for instance, that Kibito is pegged to become a Kaioshin at some future date - he just serves the Kaioshin, and has powers that go with that role. Trunks is the same. What's more, he specifically says the position given him was only ever temporary, so becoming a Kaioshin was never on the cards, and the power to heal still isn't a 'Kaioshin power' - it's one specific to the position Trunks is given (and accordingly, it's stated he'll lose it when he renounces the position). I'm not sure why this is a problem, as far as you're concerned, as so far this all seems pretty straightforward.

shin doesn't lose his teleportation skills

Technically (see previous posts in this topic), he didn't have them in the first place. The original series declares teleportation is Kibito's ability, not Shin's. It's really a retcon that this ability belongs to Kaioshin. Which would explain why Trunks doesn't have it now, despite being appointed to serve the Kaioshin.

that should also negate the possibility of a kaio becoming supreme kaio as was suggested by toyotaro with zamasu

Ah, now this really is a retcon/inconsistency with what Toriyama has said previously (not that he's been fully consistent himself), unless Zamas has been a Shin-jin born from a golden fruit (but for some reason appointed to become a Kaio - technically, there's nothing to say that these golden Shin-jin have to be chosen as Kaioshin, if the position is already taken).

is still terrible to me ... is so easy get powers just to assume a position

It would have more logic if he were only unique of his race and no that everyone can assume that role ...
also so? it does not matter that you are born with a golden fruit you will never become supreme kai and will only be an apprentice... in the kibito's case and makes Zamasu look like a poor madman ... who has no reason to feel superior when his apprentice position doesn't really mean anything to his race
the kaioshin race seems useless if evenyone can be an apprentice, anyone can get powers and other lesser gods can rise to higher and exclusive positions

[ZombieVito]

But wasn't Jiren blowing Zamasu away constantly and he kept coming back? Heroes is known for contradicting itself, so it's possible but when we saw him fight his immortality seemed to be working perfectly fine.

Yes we see Jiren completely hopeless trying to kill him and failing.

Both Hearts and him say he's immortal so I have no reason to doubt it.