Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

I think he’s rooting that in the assumption that Goku got a good bit stronger in between battles, so all things being equal between a hypothetical Vegetto and Gogeta, the Gogeta that fought Broly would have to be stronger than the Vegetto that fought Zamasu. Ergo, if Beerus is still comparable to both, a retcon is afoot.

Personally I tend to reign in the power creep by acknowledging an improvement only when the story does, and not taking continuous gains for granted, but to be fair, the anime (especially in regards to the TOP, where everyone seems to improve exponentially from one minute to the next) does you absolutely no favors in that regard.

We all agree on that, the thing is Beerus is not comparable to Gogeta, only to the guy Gogeta destroyed and to Gogeta's past "self" who of course was weaker 2 arcs ago.

[Skar]

You are having difficulty discerning fact from fiction. Toriyama himself said he "always" has the "strongest" enemy in the present. This is a fact of the story. It can't be argued. It's a definite claim. This is not my interpretation of the narrative. It's Toriyama's. Now you claiming that this isn't true, is fiction. Since it's only based off your interpretation. It is outside the confines of authority. Beerus is moved up the ladder again, here in the Moro arc, still awaiting for Goku. Who "will become a formidable rival" for Beerus. This is another fact that can not be argued. You are trying to side step these already established truth's by wrongly interpreting the author is using assumptive words like "probably" as fact.

You keep repeating this but still ignore every counterargument. I'll ask the questions again. If you're confident this is what Toriyama intended, you should be able to provide a reasonable explanation:

1. If Toriyama still intends for Beerus to be reserved as the strongest, what's the point of implying any character might be stronger than him? You're arguing the evidence to debunk these statements exists before they were even made so they wouldn't serve any purpose other than mislead the audience.

2. It was made clear Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black were weaker than Beerus. There's no need to review that was stated in BoG or an interview because each arc proved that these characters were weaker than him. The other question is why wouldn't he continue this trend and just confirm that Jiren and Broly are also below Beerus?

[HeroR]

The anime is actually pretty clear. Vegito and Fusion Zamasu are comparable with Vegito being only a little stronger. Jiren shits on Zamasu going by statements from Shin, Goku, and Vegeta and that was before Jiren used any of his actual power. Meaning, Jiren shits on Beerus if he’s only comparable to Vegito or Beerus shits on Vegito if he’s comparable to a suppressed Jiren.

Mmm yeah, that's fair. Although I believe Zamasu without his immortality would've been killed by the FKHH, but yeah, manga Vegito was out of Zamasu's league, being compared to Beerus made sense, while in the anime the difference between them wasn't as massive.

People keep forgetting that Zamasu wasn't immortal anymore, which is why Goku and Vegeta fused to kill him. Zamasu just had regen like Buu when he fought Vegito.

[HeroR]

The anime is actually pretty clear. Vegito and Fusion Zamasu are comparable with Vegito being only a little stronger. Jiren shits on Zamasu going by statements from Shin, Goku, and Vegeta and that was before Jiren used any of his actual power. Meaning, Jiren shits on Beerus if he’s only comparable to Vegito or Beerus shits on Vegito if he’s comparable to a suppressed Jiren.

Mmm yeah, that's fair. Although I believe Zamasu without his immortality would've been killed by the FKHH, but yeah, manga Vegito was out of Zamasu's league, being compared to Beerus made sense, while in the anime the difference between them wasn't as massive.

Of course, the anime also massively bumped up Merged Zamasu with multiple power-ups and a corrupted right half that seemed to hold most of the raw power that could rival Vegito from his original base state which seemed to be in a relatively similar league to his manga counterpart.

Zamasu's 'base' is much stronger in the anime compared to the manga since Black and Zamasu themselves were stronger. Goku and Vegeta also couldn't fight Zamasu as individuals the same way Full Powered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku did. For example, Goku had to literally break his arms to damage Zamasu, while Goku in the manga managed to blow Zamasu's arm off in just normal Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which Zamasu had to regen.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Goku presumably thinking something is not definitive fact. The story left it open.

Everyone is aware and has said that the story has left it open enough to flip it if it is deemed necessary - but you're not saying anything worthwhile here, because there isn't any evidence that this judgement has been overturned. Unless you have something - anything at all. In which case by all means, please do share.

There is no need for another to think/assume with a counter. It will still leave us nowhere, without a straight answer.

No, there is a need for you to bolster your argument with evidence, else you have no logical reason to believe that Goku is wrong to think that Broly is stronger. If you'd care to provide any, instead of ignoring all the counterarguments you're getting and constantly pressing on your presumptions of what the story 'will' do (which is, frankly, no kind of evidence at all) and a single, unconvincing semantic argument, that would be welcome.

[Jack Bz]

I think he’s rooting that in the assumption that Goku got a good bit stronger in between battles, so all things being equal between a hypothetical Vegetto and Gogeta, the Gogeta that fought Broly would have to be stronger than the Vegetto that fought Zamasu. Ergo, if Beerus is still comparable to both, a retcon is afoot.

That would be logical if a comparison was ever made with Beerus and Gogeta, but there hasn't been. The comparison was between Beerus and Broly. At face value the movie makes it seem like a Goku/Vegeta fusion is far above Beerus now.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think he’s rooting that in the assumption that Goku got a good bit stronger in between battles, so all things being equal between a hypothetical Vegetto and Gogeta, the Gogeta that fought Broly would have to be stronger than the Vegetto that fought Zamasu. Ergo, if Beerus is still comparable to both, a retcon is afoot.

That would be logical if a comparison was ever made with Beerus and Gogeta, but there hasn't been. The comparison was between Beerus and Broly. At face value the movie makes it seem like a Goku/Vegeta fusion is far above Beerus now.

There's also the fact that Whis references the RoF movie where he states that Goku and Vegeta working together could even match/beat Beerus, albeit now it's with Fusion instead of simply coordinating physically.

And lo and behold, Gogeta handily beats someone who's probably stronger than Beerus.

And it's not like there's much room for doubt at the moment, because NOTHING has contradicted this notion thus far.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

That’s a good point - I’ve thought about that too in the last few years.

Speaking of, (and I should have clarified this in my earlier post) but I always interpreted Goku’s assessment at the end of “Broly” as something along the lines of, “As Gogeta, I think I’m stronger than Beerus, and you put up a pretty good fight, so you’re probably stronger than Beerus, too!”

So it’s still a low-key Beerus-to-SSB Fusion comparison, to me at least. Goku hasn’t fought Beerus at full power himself, but he has a general idea from watching him fight, and he thinks he’s surpassed that level of power; so based on his battle with Broly, he’s guessing he’s around the same level.

[Skar]

So it’s still a low-key Beerus-to-SSB Fusion comparison, to me at least. Goku hasn’t fought Beerus at full power himself, but he has a general idea from watching him fight, and he thinks he’s surpassed that level of power; so based on his battle with Broly, he’s guessing he’s around the same level.

That's possible since Gogeta seemed like he had to exert effort to defeat Broly and it didn't end in one hit. I assume the difference between them wasn't much since a character could be far less than twice as strong as their opponent and easily dominate them.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Right, I’m thinking it’s almost certainly less than a 25% gap personally. I’d probably have a gap similar to the one between Vegeta and Zarbon during their first battle.

On a log scale where +1 = x10 and where +0.1 = x1.25, I’d have it roughly like this:

Beerus: 10
SSB Fusion: 10.1
SSJFP Broly: 10.07-10.08

[Miracles]

As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

I can't even make sense of your logic here at all, I'm sorry.

This would only make sense to me if it was Gogeta who was compared to Beerus, rather than Broly, or if Gogeta and Broly were close in strength. That would show that even after getting stronger, a Goku/Vegeta fusion is still "probably stronger than Beerus", the same comparison made before with Vegito.

But no, that isn't the case. A few arcs later, Gogeta is comfortably above someone who is believed to be stronger than Beerus by Goku, to the point where he can't even be hit. That makes sense.

As it stands, FT Vegito and Broly are at a tier of power where characters speculate that they're probably above Beerus, and then Broly arc Gogeta is very comfortably above that power. There's nothing more to read into it than that. That doesn't show Beerus moving up the ladder at all, the original comparisons still apply.

What you're saying isn't much different than saying Roshi "needed" someone as strong as Jiren to defeat him. That's just not the case, that's just what happened to go down. The gap between Gogeta and Broly was wide.

Broly and Gogeta are close in power. Due to that, Goku doesn't even know if Broly, who is fusion level, is stronger than Beerus. FT Vegetto is made obsolete by the new level of power scaling.

But what does that even mean? that was the only fusion they had access to, or are you saying they should've gone back to their FT selves and fuse into a weaker fighter in order to prove Shin's statement?
Gogeta stomped the power level he had in FT arc, he owned that fight, simple as that. It's a pretty straightforward situation, I don't know why you are complicating things so much.

If you have any evidence Beerus has gotten stronger than in the last couple of arcs, please, be our guest, we are dying to get a look at that.

One more thing, if someone WILL BECOME something, then is not really a fact is it? not for now, at least. Not until it actually happens, right?

Will become is a definite fact that something is going to happen in the future. As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

How can something that has not happened be a DEFINITE FACT???

Wait a minute, are you implying Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched? because that's the only scenario I see where what you propose making any sense. Unless you think they could've chosen to be FT Vegito instead of Gogeta, or that you think dance fusion > potara.
You are saying that Beerus was as strong as Gogeta Blue in the movie, therefore he is stronger than FT Vegito, right?
Two questions then:
1) where is the evidence pointing at Beerus growing in power from FT arc to the movie?
2) did you watch the movie?

Yes I watched the movie. Gogeta needed his Blue form to take down Broly. They are close in power. Also your question about Beerus is unsubstantiated. Nothing implies Beerus needs to get stronger, when the story never defined his power. You are pretending characters were stronger than him is an outright falsehood. BTW, the Oracle fish stated that Goku will become a formidable rival for Beerus. That means it's a prophetic fact that WILL happen in the future. You guys have a hard time seeing between fact and fiction.

You are having difficulty discerning fact from fiction. Toriyama himself said he "always" has the "strongest" enemy in the present. This is a fact of the story. It can't be argued. It's a definite claim. This is not my interpretation of the narrative. It's Toriyama's. Now you claiming that this isn't true, is fiction. Since it's only based off your interpretation. It is outside the confines of authority. Beerus is moved up the ladder again, here in the Moro arc, still awaiting for Goku. Who "will become a formidable rival" for Beerus. This is another fact that can not be argued. You are trying to side step these already established truth's by wrongly interpreting the author is using assumptive words like "probably" as fact.

You keep repeating this but still ignore every counterargument. I'll ask the questions again. If you're confident this is what Toriyama intended, you should be able to provide a reasonable explanation:

1. If Toriyama still intends for Beerus to be reserved as the strongest, what's the point of implying any character might be stronger than him? You're arguing the evidence to debunk these statements exists before they were even made so they wouldn't serve any purpose other than mislead the audience.

2. It was made clear Golden Freeza, Hit, and Goku Black were weaker than Beerus. There's no need to review that was stated in BoG or an interview because each arc proved that these characters were weaker than him. The other question is why wouldn't he continue this trend and just confirm that Jiren and Broly are also below Beerus?

Because Toriyama already established that Beerus was the boss over these opponents from the gate. With the Oracle fish's prophecy. For example, there is no way a TOP Jiren, who couldn't beat UI Goku then can handle UI Goku against Moro. The prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet since Goku has yet to become a formidable rival for Beerus. However, Goku surpassed Jiren. You can't ignore these facts.

Goku presumably thinking something is not definitive fact. The story left it open.

Everyone is aware and has said that the story has left it open enough to flip it if it is deemed necessary - but you're not saying anything worthwhile here, because there isn't any evidence that this judgement has been overturned. Unless you have something - anything at all. In which case by all means, please do share.

There is no need for another to think/assume with a counter. It will still leave us nowhere, without a straight answer.

No, there is a need for you to bolster your argument with evidence, else you have no logical reason to believe that Goku is wrong to think that Broly is stronger. If you'd care to provide any, instead of ignoring all the counterarguments you're getting and constantly pressing on your presumptions of what the story 'will' do (which is, frankly, no kind of evidence at all) and a single, unconvincing semantic argument, that would be welcome.

A judgement hasn't been made. If it is still left open. You contradict yourself. No one said Goku was wrong but he wasn't sure.

[Magnificent Ponta]

A judgement hasn't been made. If it is still left open. You contradict yourself.

No, not really. Goku has expressed a judgement of what he thinks is the case. He thinks Broly is stronger than Beerus. While he may turn out to be wrong eventually, that depends on something occurring that contradicts his previously expressed judgement on the matter - and we don't have that at this time, do we?

If you had said the judgement is provisional and may be overturned in the fullness of time, I might have agreed with you, but you didn't say that; you just said there wasn't one, as though Goku had said 'bwuh I dunno', rather than what he actually said, which leads almost everyone else in the topic to take him at his word for the time being. And that's what I can't get behind when it comes to your position - it's completely wrongheaded.

No one said Goku was wrong but he wasn't sure.

If that's the case, you shouldn't have any issue with people presenting it as evidence that Broly is stronger than Beerus, but you've argued the contrary for pages and pages now.

As I've already told you, there's no dichotomy between 'sure'/'unsure' like you're wrongly trying to claim, but rather a spectrum of probability at work, running from absolutely certain, through pretty certain, through generally confident, through more-or-less confident, through unconfident, through a vague leaning, through to complete uncertainty. There's lots of different positions of varying strength that can be held where probability is concerned, for people who are in a position to know. Now, overall, Goku expresses high confidence that it is the case that Broly is stronger than Beerus (hence "probably", rather than "maybe", or "possibly", or "I dunno"), and arguably, he's in a pretty good position to know.

Now, if you don't think he's wrong, why oppose the claim at all? You don't have any evidence to claim the contrary position, after all.

[Miracles]

A judgement hasn't been made. If it is still left open. You contradict yourself.

No, not really. Goku has expressed a judgement of what he thinks is the case. He thinks Broly is stronger than Beerus. While he may turn out to be wrong eventually, that depends on something occurring that contradicts his previously expressed judgement on the matter - and we don't have that at this time, do we?

If you had said the judgement is provisional and may be overturned in the fullness of time, I might have agreed with you, but you didn't say that; you just said there wasn't one, as though Goku had said 'bwuh I dunno', rather than what he actually said, which leads almost everyone else in the topic to take him at his word for the time being. And that's what I can't get behind when it comes to your position - it's completely wrongheaded.

No one said Goku was wrong but he wasn't sure.

If that's the case, you shouldn't have any issue with people presenting it as evidence that Broly is stronger than Beerus, but you've argued the contrary for pages and pages now.

As I've already told you, there's no dichotomy between 'sure'/'unsure' like you're wrongly trying to claim, but rather a spectrum of probability at work, running from absolutely certain, through pretty certain, through generally confident, through more-or-less confident, through unconfident, through a vague leaning, through to complete uncertainty. There's lots of different positions of varying strength that can be held where probability is concerned, for people who are in a position to know. Now, overall, Goku expresses high confidence that it is the case that Broly is stronger than Beerus (hence "probably", rather than "maybe", or "possibly", or "I dunno"), and arguably, he's in a pretty good position to know.

Now, if you don't think he's wrong, why oppose the claim at all? You don't have any evidence to claim the contrary position, after all.

I didn't oppose that Goku's claim was wrong. He made a statement that he isn't sure about. You are the one trying to make an uncertain claim as fact.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If we just threw out statements with some degrees of uncertainty every single time, we'd have a lot of unsubstantiated feats and scaling.

Now, if the uncertainty was actual doubt or was otherwise put into question (whether that be in-universe or by WoG), THEN there might be grounds to contest its usage as evidence.

HOWEVER.... nothing of the sort has happened with the likes of Jiren, Broly, etc., at least as far as their comparisons to Beerus are concerned. Nobody has contested Goku's assessment of Broly, nobody has contested Whis's assessment of Jiren, etc.

Not Toriyama, not Toyotaro, not Toei. Because of this, such statements and feats are indeed admissible as evidence; those who say otherwise must understand that when the argument boils down to potentially shaky evidence vs. absence of evidence, the side with evidence is almost always the superior position to hold.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I didn't oppose that Goku's claim was wrong. He made a statement that he isn't sure about. You are the one trying to make an uncertain claim as fact.

Not at any point in that post did I use the word "fact". Rather, I specifically addressed the existence of a spectrum of probability (on which Goku's statement actually rates pretty high, and which you are conspicuously ignoring). I would appreciate it if you could address the actual points I'm making.

I said that Goku's statement is evidence in favour of the view that Broly is stronger than Beerus, because Goku thinks it is true, to a high degree of confidence. Else he wouldn't have said so. While his judgement is technically provisional, it is no less a judgement for that, and until you get data that actually contradicts it, the judgement stands.

So - where's the data that contradicts it? Please provide this.

[Miracles]

I didn't oppose that Goku's claim was wrong. He made a statement that he isn't sure about. You are the one trying to make an uncertain claim as fact.

Not at any point in that post did I use the word "fact". Rather, I specifically addressed the existence of a spectrum of probability (on which Goku's statement actually rates pretty high, and which you are conspicuously ignoring). I would appreciate it if you could address the actual points I'm making.

I said that Goku's statement is evidence in favour of the view that Broly is stronger than Beerus, because Goku thinks it is true, to a high degree of confidence. Else he wouldn't have said so. While his judgement is technically provisional, it is no less a judgement for that, and until you get data that actually contradicts it, the judgement stands.

So - where's the data that contradicts it? Please provide this.

I didn't contradict that Goku didn't decide a winner or loser with Broly and Beerus. The degree of his uncertainty doesn't change this fact.

[TheQuestioner]

Will become is a definite fact that something is going to happen in the future. As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

How can something that has not happened be a DEFINITE FACT???

Wait a minute, are you implying Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched? because that's the only scenario I see where what you propose making any sense. Unless you think they could've chosen to be FT Vegito instead of Gogeta, or that you think dance fusion > potara.
You are saying that Beerus was as strong as Gogeta Blue in the movie, therefore he is stronger than FT Vegito, right?
Two questions then:
1) where is the evidence pointing at Beerus growing in power from FT arc to the movie?
2) did you watch the movie?

Yes I watched the movie. Gogeta needed his Blue form to take down Broly. They are close in power. Also your question about Beerus is unsubstantiated. Nothing implies Beerus needs to get stronger, when the story never defined his power. You are pretending characters were stronger than him is an outright falsehood. BTW, the Oracle fish stated that Goku will become a formidable rival for Beerus. That means it's a prophetic fact that WILL happen in the future. You guys have a hard time seeing between fact and fiction.

Gogeta was superior to Broly by a wider margin than just "close". Gogeta overpowered Broly multiple times and showed that he was far superior. Even when they clashed Broly was the one that got pushed back and damaged, even needing a moment to collect himself, while Gogeta was unaffected.

[Koitsukai]

Will become is a definite fact that something is going to happen in the future. As for FT Vegetto, you are complicating it. Beerus went from a weaker fusion, possibly being stronger/equal in FT, to needing a stronger fusion to beat him later. That shows Beerus moved up the ladder.

How can something that has not happened be a DEFINITE FACT???

Wait a minute, are you implying Broly and Gogeta were evenly matched? because that's the only scenario I see where what you propose making any sense. Unless you think they could've chosen to be FT Vegito instead of Gogeta, or that you think dance fusion > potara.
You are saying that Beerus was as strong as Gogeta Blue in the movie, therefore he is stronger than FT Vegito, right?
Two questions then:
1) where is the evidence pointing at Beerus growing in power from FT arc to the movie?
2) did you watch the movie?

Yes I watched the movie. Gogeta needed his Blue form to take down Broly. They are close in power. Also your question about Beerus is unsubstantiated. Nothing implies Beerus needs to get stronger, when the story never defined his power. You are pretending characters were stronger than him is an outright falsehood. BTW, the Oracle fish stated that Goku will become a formidable rival for Beerus. That means it's a prophetic fact that WILL happen in the future. You guys have a hard time seeing between fact and fiction.

It is substantiated when he is stated to be as strong as blue fusion was two arcs ago, and you claim he is stronger than that, so where's the evidence? you can't provide it because it does not exist, unless you are advocating for bad writing, one that ignores what itself provides pretending it never happened, not even trying to explain it, just a quiet retcon.

Broly and Gogeta are so close in power that he landed 0 blows and wasn't killed because of Shenron... the last time two dudes "close in power" had a one-sided fight and one was saved by the bell was... never. Unless Drederick Tatum and Homer were close in power.

I insist, how can something that HAS NOT HAPPENED YET be a FACT? it will be a fact when it happens, as of now October 5th 2020 it is NOT a fact. The only fact is that he spoke those words, and didn't the oracle fish also foresaw an idol moving into Beerus' place? seems like Shin isn't the only one to have been wrong in the past, but seems to be the only one who is "unreliable" and whose words are just his and not the author's... to expand on it, a formidable rival is such a vague term... it could mean so many things, one of them being: he'll be the one who'll force Beerus into getting his shit together, get back to training and become even stronger.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

“Close” is just a relative term, though — Gogeta consistently got behind Broly, deflected his attacks, consistently exploited openings, and in general treated Broly like a punching bag for a bit.

That might seem like it necessitates a huge gap, but Vegeta accomplished all of the same things against Zarbon with only a 6% lead, possibly the smallest (confirmed) lead in the series, ruling out completely “even” battles.

In fact, the lead may be even smaller, with Vegeta incapacitating Zarbon with only three (well placed) blows, while Broly took on a lot more punishment.

Gogeta’s advantage is nothing less than what you say, but the gap needed to *establish* that advantage may well be a good deal less than you imagine.

[Koitsukai]

“Close” is just a relative term, though — Gogeta consistently got behind Broly, deflected his attacks, consistently exploited openings, and in general treated Broly like a punching bag for a bit.

That might seem like it necessitates a huge gap, but Vegeta accomplished all of the same things against Zarbon with only a 6% lead, possibly the smallest (confirmed) lead in the series, ruling out completely “even” battles.

In fact, the lead may be even smaller, with Vegeta incapacitating Zarbon with only three (well placed) blows, while Broly took on a lot more punishment.

Gogeta’s advantage is nothing less than what you say, but the gap needed to *establish* that advantage may well be a good deal less than you imagine.

I see your point and I agree that it doesn't necessarily has to be a gigantic gap, but I feel we are taking at face value a movie, by forgetting it involves spectacular things that might not make much sense -or require us to suspend our disbelief for a moment- but are there to, according to Nagamine, gratify the audience.
Base Goku vs the Broly that made SSG Vegeta escape comes to mind, we know that doesn't make much sense but we also know it's a movie and it was time for Goku to go through all of his forms. If I were to take that at face value, then base/SS Goku > SSG Vegeta, and that is just not true, but nevertheless the footage is there to back anybody claiming that.
For instance, Freeza lasted like an hour vs Broly, more than Broly vs Gogeta (even in his FF), but we don't say he was close to SS Broly, it was just a gag.
I mean, you watch the final fight and the first thing that comes to mind is this guy is out of his depth here, please stay down or you'll die (unless your girlfriend wishes you away at the last second), but he kept getting back up because the movie needed to end with a bang, so Gogeta could showcase all of his cool attacks, some referencing Movie 12 too.

All in all, Broly was compared to the same guy Vegito was, ergo they are evenly matched or "close" enough. Gogeta beat that guy without so much as a scratch, so the gap between Broly and Gogeta is the same as Vegito and Gogeta. How much stronger the fusees have gotten two arcs later is the real gap.