"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JewyB » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:19 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:14 pm Still its a bad idea. Goku seemed aware Moro was not gonna change but gave him a chance when he was battered. He legit said ,"Moro, I'm gonna give you this healing bean if you turn yourself in and never do evil again." Moro took the bean and attacked Goku in response and Goku seemed to expect this reaction. Moro has shown himself to be pire evil, what else can you expect when you heal someone like that? Its still a bad decision.
Its the same as Goku giving Vegeta a bean on Namek, or Piccolo a bean in general. If Goku > you he isn't worried about what you will do. Goku isn't constantly on-guard.

It doesn't matter that it's a bad decision, Goku is not above bad decisions, Goku has proven many times that h is more than capable of bad decisions. But i wouldnt count this one, its a poor choice with a negative fallout, but Gokus logic was sound. He was vastly above Moro, Moro wasn't a threat.

Why would he, in any event, have in the back of his mind "i hope when i spare this guy he doesnt suddenly become on the level of Angels and surpass me a thousandfold"? There's no reason for him to think that.
Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:16 pm Even if he never grabbed Merus, Moro 7-3 fully powered up is still strong enough to take out everyone if Goku's MUI ran out, which it has a habit of doing. It's risky any way you look at it. One thing Goku could've done is have Vegeta separate them before giving them beans, that way even fully powered up neither would be a threat.
And Frieza was powerful enough to take out everyone should Goku's SSJ run out, it doesnt mean its bad writing, just a character making a bad choice, which he is allowed to do.

You're acting as though Dragon Ball has never extended the story with a shoulda/woulda/coulda and its the most offensive thing to happen in the series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:20 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:16 pm
JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:11 pmGoku was thinking "This goat boy is on a level 5 bazillion times lower than me, lets give hi ma bean, no worries".
Even if he never grabbed Merus, Moro 7-3 fully powered up is still strong enough to take out everyone if Goku's MUI ran out, which it has a habit of doing. It's risky any way you look at it. One thing Goku could've done is have Vegeta separate them before giving them beans, that way even fully powered up neither would be a threat.
There is also the chance Moro could break out if he was imprisoned again. All he'd have to do is wait a century when all the Z fighters are dead or so old ans weak that they won't be a threat to him and break out again.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by YamiGoku » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:23 pm

There is also the fact that Goku knows Moro can pull anything of his ass, you know, like when Vegeta beat him and then he pulled the teleportation to 7-3 and eat him to transform...

even if he wanted to arrest him, he should have knocked him out, not heal him!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:26 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:19 pm I remember when the arc started Toyotaro said Moro would be written so badly (as in evil) that there'd be no chance of anyone believing he could be reformed...yet he has the main character believe he can be reformed. :wtf: :eh: :?:
At this point, if there is any debate over Moro being reformed, just have him snap Gohan's neck in front of Goku. I don't think we'll be hearing anything about reforming him then.

Cell didn't do half the shit Moro did on this scale and I saw no one trying to redeem him. Moro's henchmen combined are more redeemable than he is.

Why the hell are they trying to reform the pure evil villian of the arc? If Goku is this hung up over him dying just ask King Yemma to reincarnate him. Problem solved.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Lionel » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:26 pm

Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:20 pm
Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:16 pm
JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:11 pmGoku was thinking "This goat boy is on a level 5 bazillion times lower than me, lets give hi ma bean, no worries".
Even if he never grabbed Merus, Moro 7-3 fully powered up is still strong enough to take out everyone if Goku's MUI ran out, which it has a habit of doing. It's risky any way you look at it. One thing Goku could've done is have Vegeta separate them before giving them beans, that way even fully powered up neither would be a threat.
There is also the chance Moro could break out if he was imprisoned again. All he'd have to do is wait a century when all the Z fighters are dead or so old ans weak that they won't be a threat to him and break out again.
Why didn't Goku think to use the Mafuba? It wouldn't have sullied his hands with Moro's blood but neither would Moro pose a threat so long as the container was kept under lock and key -- sounds like a good compromise if you ask me.

Granted there is the pesky issue of Moro potentially being released in the future. I say they should have the container encased within an unbreakable column of Katchin just to be on the safe side.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:28 pm

JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:19 pmAnd Frieza was powerful enough to take out everyone should Goku's SSJ run out, it doesn't mean it's bad writing, just a character making a bad choice, which he is allowed to do.

You're acting as though Dragon Ball has never extended the story with a shoulda/woulda/coulda and its the most offensive thing to happen in the series.
The difference with Freeza is that he was literally sliced in half, with an arm missing. There was nothing he had (as far as Goku knew) that could threaten him and earth. Goku knows for a fact that healing this guy is putting everyone at risk, and that's before he got his new angle powers.

Most of the time it made sense. Vegeta shouldn't have let Cell absorb 18, but it made sense with where he was as a character. Gohan should've stopped Goten and Trunks from fusing, but he didn't know Buu could absorb people so it wasn't his fault.
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:20 pmThere is also the chance Moro could break out if he was imprisoned again.
Jaco said he'd get the death penalty, so saving him was pointless, as the only thing it accomplishes is putting everyone in danger.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by JewyB » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:31 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:28 pm The difference with Freeza is that he was literally sliced in half, with an arm missing. There was nothing he had (as far as Goku knew) that could threaten him and earth. Goku knows for a fact that healing this guy is putting everyone at risk, and that's before he got his new angle powers.

Most of the time it made sense. Vegeta shouldn't have let Cell absorb 18, but it made sense with where he was as a character. Gohan should've stopped Goten and Trunks from fusing, but he didn't know Buu could absorb people so it wasn't his fault.
Seems now its more like you're saying "it's fine and justifiable here but not in this one instance, in this one instance it spits in the face of the series that has never done this before apart from the times I'm okay with."

But this is a circular argument, because you're adamant about being mad at the preview and i'm refusing to be mad at it, so we could do this all night or we could just stop ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:39 pm

JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:31 pmSeems now its more like you're saying "it's fine and justifiable here but not in this one instance, in this one instance it spits in the face of the series that has never done this before apart from the times I'm okay with."
I have no issue with something like this when it makes sense within the context of the story. This doesn't. Had Goku been in another universe and just got back after everything's gone down, then I'd be more understanding, because that way Goku wouldn't know how dangerous and ruthless he is.
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:26 pmCell didn't do half the shit Moro did on this scale and I saw no one trying to redeem him. Moro's henchmen combined are more redeemable than he is.
To Cell's credit, he wanted to have a fair fight with everyone, so giving him a Senzu made some sense (although not much) when you're looking at the warrior's honor that Goku and his friends have.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:45 pm

What's it gonna take for Moro to be seen as pure evil? Because sparing him is stupid as hell as he's shown to be nothing but a pure malevolent force if chaos and destruction.

What does Moro need to do to prove he's evil despite the image Malone linked above proving his evil? At this point, they might as well have Moro snap Gohan's neck to prove how irredeemable he is.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:46 pm

I'm baffled anyone can like this trash. This is worse than even GT. It's an embarrassment.

This hack is making me not want to be a fan anymore. :cry:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:53 pm

JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:53 pm
Femme Fatale Kikaza wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:50 pm I don't think Tori planned for Vegeta to be redeemed at that point. Had he not been popular Vegeta likely would have stayed dead after Namek.

Moro is still a planet eating monster. What do you think is gonna happen if he's spared?
I dont know but i wont just assume it will be a terrible decision before it plays but, I'm open to anything happening.

Anyone who thinks Moro is too evil to be redeemed by DB standards musth ate 70% of the DB supporting cast because they werent all pure hearted heroes from day 1.
You don't need to be a saint to realize how stupid sparing Moro is. Honestly the only person whose redemption I question was Vegeta. They had to pull some things to make his sociopathic personality look less bad because he was popular.

Vegeta was one of the worst out of the reformed villains and I wouldn't say Vegeta changed at all until the end of the Buu Saga. Even then, I don't like how everyone ignores how much of a sociopath and asshole he was, but no one strong enough cares enough to bring it up to his face.

What does Moro have that would make sparing him useful? He drains planets, the destruction he causes isn't worth it.

Even if Goku was a remorseless sociopath who gave fuck all about everyone else, you'd think Goku would care about himself enough to see sparing and healing Moro is a bad idea, especially since MUI ain't stable.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:57 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:46 pmI'm baffled anyone can like this trash. This is worse than even GT. It's an embarrassment.
As someone who's thrown GT under the bus multiple times, I'll be the first to say GT has nothing on this when it comes to bad writing. At least GT never went out of its way to destroy the image of its characters. The way Goku is being written here is honestly the worst I've ever seen a character be written in this franchise. If you're a GT fan, just point to this chapter if anyone says Super is better...or RF...or Minus... :lol:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:06 pm

WTF is THIS???!!

Can anyone explain? Lol

Image

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Femme Fatale Kikaza » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:08 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:06 pm WTF is THIS???!!

Can anyone explain? Lol

Image
Since when could Angels do that? Where is Moro getting these powers from?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:09 pm

Super is still better than GT, and I'm sure Toei will be able to fix this arc. Honestly, the Super anime was infinitely more enjoyable, just look at some episodes of the ToP arc. There were huge crowds of people watching it live in city stadiums. The Super anime really brought people together, it nailed down what makes Dragon Ball entertaining to the masses.

Regardless, at least GT didn't pretend its villains were redeemable. Because, well... none of them were. Toyotaro is trying so hard to be a smart writer by making the ending convoluted and full of twists, when he should just kill Moro already. This stupid goat has no personality or motivation anyway, he reminds me of Super 17. Who actually cares if he dies without getting a chance at redemption? If Moro died a few months ago, would anyone really have said "Man, I'm so angry Goku killed Moro without even offering him a chance to atone for his sins!!"...
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:10 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:07 pm
JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:04 pmI would say it has to get actually bad for it to be considered bad by me personally. To claim this is destroying the character is an overexaggeration and to pretend its not is dishonest.
It has to get bad ? You seriously think what we've been getting with him is good ?

This comment explains things far better than I ever could:
UI Peter wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:49 pm To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching :roll:

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.
You know, fandoms, especially the DB fandom, tends to treat stories like a grocery store. They walk down the pages of the isle and pick and choose what they want to put in their carts. This poster you quoted did some basket shopping. He even used coupon's to cheapen the narrative.

The poster conveniently didn't toss in Goku putting the universe in peril after breaking the Patorra against Kid Buu. Just cause Buu wasn't merged anymore. People need to let it go, Goku giving Moro a senzu bean, since he does not kill his opponents [CH 63] is in character. That's why he took off the galactic patrol sign. He is now fighting Moro "as an earthling," IE in his own way. Goku lets the enemies live, so he can continue to fight the "strongest." The strongest just so happen to be villains.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DBNamek » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:11 pm

honestly, Moro had over 10 million years to change for the better and atone for his sins, but he didn't. So for him begging for mercy doesn't cut it for me. He makes the likes of Cell and King Piccolo look like saints.

Sorry, but Moro never deserved the benefit of the doubt. Goku fucked up, and this fuck up is the worst he has ever done. Him giving cell the senzu doesn't come close to this.

I'm gonna be honest. I will always love og Goku (db and dbz) fullstop. But Super Goku can simply fuck off.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:13 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:10 pm
Matches Malone wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:07 pm
JewyB wrote: Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:04 pmI would say it has to get actually bad for it to be considered bad by me personally. To claim this is destroying the character is an overexaggeration and to pretend its not is dishonest.
It has to get bad ? You seriously think what we've been getting with him is good ?

This comment explains things far better than I ever could:
UI Peter wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:49 pm To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching :roll:

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.
You know, fandoms, especially the DB fandom, tends to treat stories like a grocery store. They walk down the pages of the isle and pick and choose what they want to put in their carts. This poster you quoted did some basket shopping. He even used coupon's to cheapen the narrative.

The poster conveniently didn't toss in Goku putting the universe in peril after breaking the Patorra against Kid Buu. Just cause Buu wasn't merged anymore.People need to let it go, Goku giving Moro a senzu bean is i ncharacter.
It’s not it’s literally bringing back a dumb ass decision from the cell saga and doing it again

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:13 pm

That pic of Moro reminds me of Infinite Zamasu. Could Moro try to become "one with the earth" like Zamasu became "one with the universe" in the anime?

Image

That's the feeling I get from that panel at least.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Block88 » Sat Oct 17, 2020 4:15 pm

Even saying hurr durr this in his character doesn’t mean we should go through this shit again especially where there’s better ways to do it like doesn’t Moro have fucking magic?

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