Unpopular DB opinions

[WittyUsername]

You are right on the money. I wasn't talking/intending to talk condescendingly about folks on Kanzenshuu or anything, I was discussing how loads upon loads of folks on social media engage in pretty much nothing but media intended for children.

It seems a little random to post about that on a thread like this. A topic like that might be better suited for its own thread.

I disagree on the first point, but I definitely agree about the second one. I might even make such a thread in the upcoming weeks.

This particular thread is meant for unpopular opinions within the Dragon Ball fandom, though. I don’t really know if the topic of people only consuming media for children really fits into that category, other than the vague association of Dragon Ball being something that is also made for kids.

[LoganForkHands73]

There's already been a few fairly recent threads discussing the issue of overconsumption of children's media, I had a nice chat with kunzait about it in one of them (still eagerly awaiting his promised thread about it, that's gonna be juicy). However, I think it's a topic that's fairly beaten in at this point and somewhat counterproductive to bring up on a forum all about Dragon Ball. I get the feeling most people here do have broader, more mature tastes than the average Twitter stan, though with any forum dedicated to a single topic, there's gonna be some singleminded fanatics. I prefer threads that compare Dragon Ball to other properties and generally don't treat it like it's in some sort of vacuum.

I will echo one of Hokuto's points though. I feel like I've gotten everything off my chest relating to Dragon Ball that I can possibly talk about at this point, and I've only been here for about a year. I have some respect for the true veterans who can stick around for years, seeing the same old threads and conversations played out over and over and over and over. Seriously... do you ever feel like you're stuck in Groundhog Day? How do you not get sick of it?

[precita]

I've been discussing Dragonball online since like 2001 on other forums, and well, a large chunk of the fandom grew up over the last 20 years. Of course back in the early 2000's most people were growing up with the dub on Cartoon Network so you had all the dub vs sub debates back then...which honestly isn't too different than now to be honest. Although nowadays most agree and admit how poorly done the early FUNi dub was.

Only other difference I remember is people making fun of Krillin all the time like people do with Yamcha now. Nowadays you almost never see anyone ragging on Krillin, but in the early 2000's everyone was like, "Well Krillin died again!" and so forth. I wonder if all these people actually realized how great Krillin's character was despite the fact that he has a large losing streak.

[ABED]

There's already been a few fairly recent threads discussing the issue of overconsumption of children's media, I had a nice chat with kunzait about it in one of them (still eagerly awaiting his promised thread about it, that's gonna be juicy). However, I think it's a topic that's fairly beaten in at this point and somewhat counterproductive to bring up on a forum all about Dragon Ball. I get the feeling most people here do have broader, more mature tastes than the average Twitter stan, though with any forum dedicated to a single topic, there's gonna be some singleminded fanatics. I prefer threads that compare Dragon Ball to other properties and generally don't treat it like it's in some sort of vacuum.

I will echo one of Hokuto's points though. I feel like I've gotten everything off my chest relating to Dragon Ball that I can possibly talk about at this point, and I've only been here for about a year. I have some respect for the true veterans who can stick around for years, seeing the same old threads and conversations played out over and over and over and over. Seriously... do you ever feel like you're stuck in Groundhog Day? How do you not get sick of it?

I like talking about it in the same way I rematch the show

[Zephyr]

I feel like I've gotten everything off my chest relating to Dragon Ball that I can possibly talk about at this point, and I've only been here for about a year. I have some respect for the true veterans who can stick around for years, seeing the same old threads and conversations played out over and over and over and over. Seriously... do you ever feel like you're stuck in Groundhog Day? How do you not get sick of it?

I joined in 2010. In discussing Dragon Ball on the forums, here, the very way I look at the work, and the way I look at art in general, has changed, several times, thanks to certain users genuinely trying to expand the way others are thinking about this stuff:

VegettoEX helped me understand that a localization is a distinct work from the work that is the source material. People aren't watching the anime subbed because they're Japanophiles (I mean some might be), but rather because it's a foreign language work. One wouldn't watch a German language work dubbed, if one could avoid it, for much the same reasons.

Gaffer Tape, and his YouTube series Dragon Ball Dissection, helped me understand the value of consuming a work in the proper order, via the actual source material. He also includes a fair bit of outside context, which makes it also double as a nice Dragon Ball Documentary, at times.

Cipher helped me understand that an adaptation is a distinct work from the work that is the source material. Art is created by, and derives its identity from, the artist.

Kunzait_83 helped me understand the importance of historical antecedents in evaluating art, specifically in identifying genre. Moreover, historical antecedents supply a work with its identity just as much as the creator does. He, and others still, have also helped me recognize the remarkable similarities between the psychological motivations of martial artists (in real life and in fiction), and competitive Fighting Game players.

---

Needless to say, at each and every step here (which happened over the course of ten years), I had to discard all of whatever baggage and hangups I had about the story, and re-evaluate it in these new terms. This has happened several times. I have literally grown as a person and as an intellectual because of this place. What's both funny and sad is that I've been taking Philosophy classes the whole time (acquired my Bachelor's in 2016, and began Graduate School last year) and only just last year did I finally take a class relating to art (might have saved me a lot of time ).

What's more strictly sad, though, is that I see very little of such growth within the fandom. It once frustrated me, and motivated me to discuss things, and possibly help others expand the way they think about Dragon Ball in particular, and art in general. But I just can't do it. It's too frustrating. There are too many who simply read posts with minimal interpretational charity. There are too many instances of having to re-state the same point over, and over, and over again. Many don't want to acknowledge, confront, or try to shed, the baggage they have with the series, or completely uproot the way they look at things.

It feels impossible beyond a certain point to discern, based on what is written and how it is written, between users who speak English as a second language, users who are actual literal children, users who are pretending to be dense, and others who are simply genuinely having a hard time understanding something. Here, Twitter, Discord, etc. If it was simply a waste of time, that would be one thing, but the resulting frustration often causes me to become more combattive, hostile, or otherwise rude, in the conversation proper, as well as cranky and angry in real life (making me unpleasant to be around). Nobody wins. This is a difficulty I have with online discourse in general. I still type up partial posts occasionally, usually just to be utterly taken over by apathy part-way through, and deleting everything. And that's okay! I don't have to be part of 'the conversation'.

Fandom is inherently unphilosophical. It is centered on forming a community, for community's sake. Wisdom, if ever fostered, is simply a fortunate by-product. And that's just how things are. Not everyone has the time, interest, etc. in discussing Dragon Ball in a genuinely academic manner. If it ain't "my scene", then the problem is with me, not it. If I want to discuss Dragon Ball in an academic manner, then, well, I should go and take the discussion to an academic setting.

[LoganForkHands73]

I joined in 2010. In discussing Dragon Ball on the forums, here, the very way I look at the work, and the way I look at art in general, has changed, several times, thanks to certain users genuinely trying to expand the way others are thinking about this stuff:

VegettoEX helped me understand that a localization is a distinct work from the work that is the source material. People aren't watching the anime subbed because they're Japanophiles (I mean some might be), but rather because it's a foreign language work. One wouldn't watch a German language work dubbed, if one could avoid it, for much the same reasons.

Gaffer Tape, and his YouTube series Dragon Ball Dissection, helped me understand the value of consuming a work in the proper order, via the actual source material. He also includes a fair bit of outside context, which makes it also double as a nice Dragon Ball Documentary, at times.

Cipher helped me understand that an adaptation is a distinct work from the work that is the source material. Art is created by, and derives its identity from, the artist.

Kunzait_83 helped me understand the importance of historical antecedents in evaluating art, specifically in identifying genre. Moreover, historical antecedents supply a work with its identity just as much as the creator does. He, and others still, have also helped me recognize the remarkable similarities between the psychological motivations of martial artists (in real life and in fiction), and competitive Fighting Game players.

---

Needless to say, at each and every step here (which happened over the course of ten years), I had to discard all of whatever baggage and hangups I had about the story, and re-evaluate it in these new terms. This has happened several times. I have literally grown as a person and as an intellectual because of this place. What's both funny and sad is that I've been taking Philosophy classes the whole time (acquired my Bachelor's in 2016, and began Graduate School last year) and only just last year did I finally take a class relating to art (might have saved me a lot of time ).

What's more strictly sad, though, is that I see very little of such growth within the fandom. It once frustrated me, and motivated me to discuss things, and possibly help others expand the way they think about Dragon Ball in particular, and art in general. But I just can't do it. It's too frustrating. There are too many who simply read posts with minimal interpretational charity. There are too many instances of having to re-state the same point over, and over, and over again. Many don't want to acknowledge, confront, or try to shed, the baggage they have with the series, or completely uproot the way they look at things.

It feels impossible beyond a certain point to discern, based on what is written and how it is written, between users who speak English as a second language, users who are actual literal children, users who are pretending to be dense, and others who are simply genuinely having a hard time understanding something. Here, Twitter, Discord, etc. If it was simply a waste of time, that would be one thing, but the resulting frustration often causes me to become more combattive, hostile, or otherwise rude, in the conversation proper, as well as cranky and angry in real life (making me unpleasant to be around). Nobody wins. This is a difficulty I have with online discourse in general. I still type up partial posts occasionally, usually just to be utterly taken over by apathy part-way through, and deleting everything. And that's okay! I don't have to be part of 'the conversation'.

Fandom is inherently unphilosophical. It is centered on forming a community, for community's sake. Wisdom, if ever fostered, is simply a fortunate by-product. And that's just how things are. Not everyone has the time, interest, etc. in discussing Dragon Ball in a genuinely academic manner. If it ain't "my scene", then the problem is with me, not it. If I want to discuss Dragon Ball in an academic manner, then, well, I should go and take the discussion to an academic setting.

That's enlightening, thank you. I certainly feel your pain in the last few paragraphs (especially the bit about typing up replies only to abandon them, too real). I don't usually have the patience to stick around with specific online fandom communities for very long for these reasons, I guess I'm not passionate enough about anything to endure them. I can only see the same tired threads about power-scaling debates, "GoKu's chAraCTer rUiNed!1!1" (or the typical equivalents for other fandoms) and assorted circlejerks so many times before I have to move on. Successfully getting people to see your point of view is a fun dragon to chase but it's more trouble than it's worth in these increasingly divided times.

With Dragon Ball, increasingly I feel that the topics of interest surrounding it tend to be more engaging than Dragon Ball itself, which I already feel is more or less exhausted in terms of critical, analytical or trivial discussion. It's not that Dragon Ball can't be deep, it's just that few seem to want to peel back the curtain to see the wider picture. Like you said, interacting with some fans who only parrot the same points ad nauseum can be frustrating and above all embarrassing. Whether or not you agree with Gaffer/Fusion's videos or kunzait's wuxia thesis, they're at least trying to make insightful, intelligent points about the series, but they're only reaching a modest, dedicated audience. That said, I have zero interest in the trivia discussed in the Kanzenshuu podcast, the minutiae of quality differences in home video releases that dominate 'General Discussion', or indulging people who want to act like they're the master race just because they appreciate the Super manga over the anime and vice versa, but as you said, that's the scene. I can't hate it if I'm trying to be a part of it.

[Gligarman]

I don't know if this is unpopular but I never liked that Videl pretty much lost all sense of personality once she got pregnant. I miss when she was a tomboy.

Some people call it being an adult.

Certain main character could try it sometimes.

Well at least that certain main character's personality extends beyond "Chichi's Husband."

[JamesDaSpaghettiTaco]

I prefer GT over Super, it has superior animation, a better soundtrack,not better but more consistent writing, 2 forms that makes sense for saiyans to have. It was more appealing to me honestly

[nickzambuto]

I prefer GT over Super, it has superior animation, a better soundtrack,not better but more consistent writing, 2 forms that makes sense for saiyans to have. It was more appealing to me honestly

Where does GT have better animation? What are the best animated parts of GT?

[KPike87]

I've never cared for next episode previews. Even in Japanese they always felt silly and out of place, especially with the darker tone of Z and GT (OG DB is alright I guess), plus they usually spoil the best parts of the upcoming episode.

[ABED]

I've never cared for next episode previews. Even in Japanese they always felt silly and out of place, especially with the darker tone of Z and GT (OG DB is alright I guess), plus they usually spoil the best parts of the upcoming episode.

I agree that they often spoil stuff but how do they feel silly and out of place?

[TheGreatness25]

I've never cared for next episode previews. Even in Japanese they always felt silly and out of place, especially with the darker tone of Z and GT (OG DB is alright I guess), plus they usually spoil the best parts of the upcoming episode.

I agree that they often spoil stuff but how do they feel silly and out of place?

I can see it being "silly" with the music and Goku's cheerful, "Yo! It's Son Goku!" Though the music is just an off-shoot of the opening themes, which are generally cheerful either way.

[MasenkoHA]

I've never cared for next episode previews. Even in Japanese they always felt silly and out of place, especially with the darker tone of Z and GT (OG DB is alright I guess), plus they usually spoil the best parts of the upcoming episode.

Z and GT aren’t dark and its a kids show

[ABED]

There are dark moments but plenty of kids stories have dark stuff in them. Dark isn't antithetical to children's stories. Hansel and Gretel kill a witch by throwing her in an oven.

That said, I do think an argument can be made that the NEP's could've changed up the music for when the stories went darker.

[MyVisionity]

I don't consider throwing a witch into an oven "dark" but ok.

The guy said Z and GT were darker compared to DB, not simply dark.

I think if any release is missing the NEPs, then there's a problem. It's an incomplete release.

[ABED]

I don't consider throwing a witch into an oven "dark" but ok.

The guy said Z and GT were darker compared to DB, not simply dark.

I think if any release is missing the NEPs, then there's a problem. It's an incomplete release.

Killing someone by burning them alive is pretty damn dark. If that's not dark then what is? Certainly attempting to murder children by fattening them up to cannibalize them is dark. You don't believe so, but okay.

I guess Z is darker than DB, but not GT, not by a long shot.

[MasenkoHA]

The guy said Z and GT were darker compared to DB, not simply dark.

Sure, but the argument being made is that the NEP music for Z and GT didn’t fit the tone of those shows, which isn’t true.

[nickzambuto]

I've never cared for next episode previews. Even in Japanese they always felt silly and out of place, especially with the darker tone of Z and GT (OG DB is alright I guess), plus they usually spoil the best parts of the upcoming episode.

I agree that they often spoil stuff but how do they feel silly and out of place?

I can see it being "silly" with the music and Goku's cheerful, "Yo! It's Son Goku!" Though the music is just an off-shoot of the opening themes, which are generally cheerful either way.

Yo! It's Son Goku! I am so excited and I can't wait to get even stronger! *images of Krillin being impaled by a horn and bleeding out as the life drains from his eyes and young Gohan watches* Tune in next time kids!

[ABED]

Because as we know, those moments happen in every episode.

[KPike87]

I've never cared for next episode previews. Even in Japanese they always felt silly and out of place, especially with the darker tone of Z and GT (OG DB is alright I guess), plus they usually spoil the best parts of the upcoming episode.

I agree that they often spoil stuff but how do they feel silly and out of place?

I can see it being "silly" with the music and Goku's cheerful, "Yo! It's Son Goku!" Though the music is just an off-shoot of the opening themes, which are generally cheerful either way.

Basically what I was going to say.