Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

Jord
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1484
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:13 am

Re: Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

Post by Jord » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:49 am

The new forms in itself aren't a problem. It's the how and why that's the problem.

SSj1 was new, and it was clear how Goku was forced beyond his limits.
SSJ2 Gohan was basically just a repeat of Goku's situation and while the moment was cool, it did lose it's impact.
SSJ3 was a parlor trick. "Look what I've learned while you weren't looking?" I do like the look and the trade off with it's massive energy consumption.
SSJ4 was great as a final transformation since it connected the Oozaru form we saw since Dragonball and connected it to the human-looking form. It made sense since the Oozaru 'version' of a character has always been very strong. Since it's something that was basically inside of them all along, it seems like a logical conclusion.

Neon Z
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1145
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:34 am

Re: Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

Post by Neon Z » Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:32 am

precita wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:56 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:42 pm It's because ratings go through the roof when there is a new transformation and toys with new transformations sell well. They're just giving the people what they want.
They can do the same without all that though, they sold DBZ merch for years when no new series were being produced.
Kai got initially cancelled due to low merchandising sales. Selling existing designs only goes so far.

User avatar
DBPirate
Newbie
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:07 am

Re: Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

Post by DBPirate » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:16 pm

Neon Z wrote: Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:32 am
precita wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:56 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:42 pm It's because ratings go through the roof when there is a new transformation and toys with new transformations sell well. They're just giving the people what they want.
They can do the same without all that though, they sold DBZ merch for years when no new series were being produced.
Kai got initially cancelled due to low merchandising sales. Selling existing designs only goes so far.
AFAIK Kai was never canceled and was always planned to end at the Cell Saga.

As for the thread topic, I don't think DB has gone crazy with new forms at all. They introduced one form per saga (if you count Kaioken, which I wouldn't) just as DBZ did beginning with the Frieza Saga. Not to mention the villains in Z had multiple forms as well and the Cell Saga introduced multiple now-irrelevant SS variants.

Just seems like another attempt at finding "problems" with Super.
Favorite sagas: Tien Shinhan (DB), Frieza (Z), Future Trunks (Super)
Favorite characters: Frieza, Future Trunks, Beerus, Android 17, Zamasu, Gohan

User avatar
ZeroNeonix
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1401
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:35 pm

Re: Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

Post by ZeroNeonix » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:09 am

Depends on the transformation in question. For Super Saiyan God, it came after a loooooong time with no major, canon content for Dragon Ball. So the new transformation was warranted. For Blue, though, I like the form, but it came way too fast. I hear that fans weren't fond of the design of God, so maybe they rushed to replace it for that reason? The anime version at least shows them training to learn how to use the transformation, but we still only got to see God form ONE TIME. Vegeta didn't even get to use it (apart from the manga) until Super Broly!

Another thing about Blue. As soon as I learned there was a Super Saiyan level of Super Saiyan God, I immediately thought, "Oh, so there are going to be Super Saiyan 2 and 3 versions of this too, right?" And judging by the modding scene of the Xenoverse games, I wasn't the only one thinking this. But there's only one level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Why? I understand it would have been too predictable, but some explanation would have been nice.

Next was Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken. Technically, it's a combination of a form and a technique, not a new "transformation," but it's basically treated as a transformation. It's visually distinct and more powerful than Blue alone. The explanation they give, that Super Saiyan energy is chaotic, but God energy is calm, as the reason for Goku being able to make use of Kaioken again after all these years made sense. I didn't mind this one. It looked ugly as HFIL, but it was okay.

Then there was Super Saiyan Rosé. A villain exclusive transformation, but the anime failed to explain what it was. This would turn out to be a trend for Toei. Was it a form above Blue? They never told us. The manga, IIRC, explains that because the soul inside of Goku Black is a god, he always has god ki. When he transforms, it's not his energy turning from mortal to god ki, so it manifests in a different way than Goku or Vegeta, giving us Rosé. I didn't have a problem with this.

What I did have a problem with was Super Saiyan Rage...or whatever Future Trunks' new transformation was. It served no purpose. It had no buildup, it didn't give him an advantage, it wasn't even given a name in the anime. The manga gave him healing powers from his training with the Supreme Kai, and IMO, that was a better way to make him useful. Especially since he spends so much time on the sidelines in both versions anyway. Pointless form, exists only to oversaturate the already rapidly growing number of forms in the Super Saiyan family tree.

Super Saiyan Evolution is similar to Trunks' form. It's unexplained and unnamed in the anime, and it serves no purpose. Some speculate it's like the graded forms of Super Saiyan, but for Blue. So does that mean there's a Super Saiyan Blue 2 after all? Toei seems to think they can't hold our attention without a new Saiyan transformation every five minutes. And this was in an arc that already gave us Ultra Instinct, so... I don't understand, Toei. Why?

Now for Ultra Instinct. Both versions are really cool. They're explained (retroactively, I'm sure, but still) to be what Whis had been trying to teach Goku and Vegeta since they first started training with him. What I love about Ultra Instinct is that it isn't exclusive to Saiyans. It's not another Super Saiyan transformation. Anyone could do it, in theory. So far, Goku is the only one who can use it (besides maybe the angels?), and I hope it stays that way for at least a while. And since Goku can't use it at will, it doesn't make his previous forms obsolete. Ultra Instinct is something that appears (hopefully, in the future) rarely, as the last ace up Goku's sleeve. Now, while Ultra Instinct is technically two transformations, it actually works in the form's favor this time. It's kinda like those inferior Super Saiyan grades that heralded the appearance of Super Saiyan 2, only better. The Omen form has the defense of Ultra Instinct, but not the power. While he moves without thinking, as soon as he goes to attack, his brain turns back on and starts thinking strategy, and it actually works against him. It builds up hype for the Mastered form very effectively.

Oh, and I can't forget Kale and Broly. Thanks to them, Legendary Super Saiyan is now canon too. I don't have a problem with that, but it's kind of confusing now. Both refer to their green transformations by different names, neither of which being "Legendary Super Saiyan." Before the reboot, the transformation was just Broly's version of Super Saiyan, but the reboot gives him a regular golden Super Saiyan form, and then has "Full Power" Super Saiyan as his green form. So it's a level above Super Saiyan...? Kale goes straight to green, but she has two versions of it. One bulky like traditional Broly, and one condensed form where she has the power, but retains her sanity. So if Broly learns to control his power, would he turn slim like Kale? I don't understand this transformation anymore.

So yeah, in general, I do agree with you. We were given too many Super Saiyan transformations too fast. Some of them work, some of them are pointless and/or confusing. If you cut out the fat (Trunks and Vegeta's unexplained forms), and put a bigger gap between God and Blue forms, then you'd have much better pacing.

User avatar
PurestEvil
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1948
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Dec 16, 2020 4:55 am

Super Saiyan Blue came by way too soon, and had the suckiest debut transformation scene of all of them. It would only go downhill from there with even weirder and more vague transformations.
This post was brought to you by 魔族

Rest in Peace, Toriyama-san

Post Reply