Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[goku the krump dancer]

I'm just gonna repost Ashanark's post from the site as it pretty much says all I want to. I'd tipe myself but It's late, I've got crap to do and get to be d for work.

Spoiler:

1. Why is this Gotenks, fused of U16 Goten/U18 Trunks, calling Vegito "father?" Are they that interchangeable? Why is the first time Gotenks has ever been serious ever... to defend Bra? Half of him doesn't know Bra! The other version of him was killed by Bra!

2. "Brainwashed by surprise?" Hmm... if only the story showed us that. Instead of just informing us of the circumstances of Bra's offscreen Majinization and using them as an excuse to completely victimize and forgive her.

3. People originally said Bra wasn't a Creator's Pet because she couldn't resist immediately like Vegeta did, showing her as worse... and now the story's praising Bra for not resisting immediately like Vegeta did, showing her as better. So Bra, who did far worse things as a Majin than Vegeta ever did (Vegeta didn't chop Bulma in half and ask for more), is now morally superior than the man who never killed his family as a Majin (and in fact, hugged them.) And then died to atone. Knowing he'd go to hell.

4. As the cherry on top, we get to see the complete assassination of Vegito's character.

Vegito, who when Bra nearly killed him in space, didn't say a word about it but instead praised her for saving his life. Vegito, who specifically went out of his way to stop Bra from torturing Zangya. Vegito, who specifically took Bra out as a space cop when she was younger to teach her to protect innocents (and specifically made sure she wasn't killing people.) Vegito, who taught Bra special techniques even after she killed billions. Who kept Bra "from lashing out for years." Who Bra damaged in the HTC, yet he didn't even scratch in return. Who Gohan and Piccolo relied upon to stop Bra when she got out of hand. (Note how this page retcons that into a bad thing?) Who never shot back when Bra insulted him. Whom Bra, when Vegito rescued her from Ginyu, was surprised that he hurt her, showing such behavior was unusual. Who Salagir labeled as a "perfect master" of his emotions. Who went out of his way to protect the Vargas at the tournament despite not being asked to. Who was always worried about his potential offspring being a threat to the universe. Vegito, who is faced with the tough choice of picking either the universe's safety or his daughter, and picked the universe...

...is in the wrong. Completely. And Bra is absolutely guiltless. And apparently no one in U16--not Bulma (whom the story's never cared about enough to give even a single scene with her daughter), or Gohan, or anyone--is in any way at fault. Just Vegito. How is that "morally grey?"
(Note: The U1 Kais killed potential threats as babies to keep the universe safe, purely on the chance they would be a problem, and yet the Kais are still un-Majinizable and therefore pure good. Vegito tries to kill someone with two confirmed killing sprees and he's out-of-line?)
This is the culmination of a months-long retcon, all for Bra's sake. It was clear back in June, and it's only gotten more blatant since. Complete with sympathetic angles, shading, and yes, even googly eyes, now combined with manipulating our instinctive response to seeing a young girl get hit by an adult male. (If Bra were a guy, this scenario would be very different.) We've seen a character with exactly one positive quality--that she shed a tear for Pan once--kill families and friends while laughing and boasting, and had the ability to break free but only did so when her strength was challenged... just receive a full-on pardon with no lasting consequences while her dad gets retconned into an abusive father and thrown under the bus.

...What?

This more or less sums up my thoughts as well and I barely remembered half of this shit.. Gotenks being the voice of reason doesn't bother me much because for what Salagir is trying to convey in this particular instance someone has to fill that role and from what I remember both Piccolo's are out of commission at the moment.

Also I like how he's (Gotenks) saying she's everybody's responsibility as if he stands any real inkling of a chance against her, magic spell or not.

Lastly I don't wanna hop on the Salagir Loves Bra train because I think that's silly, however I really hope the pay off to this is worth it because this whole angle is super shitty.

[Fionordequester]

Fionordequester, you hit the nail on the head, too: “Bra is the face of DBM; She is to Salagir what Goku was to Toriyama.”

Thx .

Umm... Sure, Gotenks. Bra was taken by surprise, so she's not technically responsible. But there's just one tinsy little problem... Babidi's magic only works on people who are evil. If Bra wasn't a monster to begin with, she would have been immune to his mind control. But no, as we've recently seen, she murders her own brother, along with an entire solar system, and doesn't bat an eye.

That, and it's still possible to retain some humanity, even as a Majin:





Naurb was ready to shoot, they were not. He could have wasted everyone but Phipsil, if he'd wanted to. But, he hoped they would surrender, instead. It's clear he'd PREFER not to kill them.

Bra, however, went out of her way to kill Gohan and Piccolo, even when it meant endangering Babidi:

[Fable]

As far as reception to audience criticism is concerned (constructive or otherwise), Salagir—at least to me—is really akin to someone like George Lucas. Based on his responses, Salagir comes across as someone who feels improvement is unnecessary; what he's written is some solid stuff and no one can convince him otherwise. If you do have a problem, it might just be fundamentally rooted in personal bias.

Spoiler:

[miguelnuva1]

As far as reception to audience criticism is concerned (constructive or otherwise), Salagir—at least to me—is really akin to someone like George Lucas. Based on his responses, Salagir comes across as someone who feels improvement is unnecessary; what he's written is some solid stuff and no one can convince him otherwise. If you do have a problem, it might just be fundamentally rooted in personal bias.

Spoiler:

George Lucas and Salagir are two different animals as far as writing goes. George might change little details but if he doesn't do big changes to prop up other others.

[Kanassa]

No matter how much Salgir tries to retcon how the majin control works, it still doesn't make Bra look any better. She was still easily undone by being insulted while not even experiencing a moment of hesitation after butchering her friends and family.

Also I like how he's (Gotenks) saying she's everybody's responsibility as if he stands any real inkling of a chance against her, magic spell or not.

It's also weird to have Gotenks go "She's all of our responsibility", yet still trying to push that Vegito is solely responsible for how Bra turned out when she literally has a wide support network of loving family and friends who would have stopped her from turning out like this if it weren't for the story needing to force a point.

As far as reception to audience criticism is concerned (constructive or otherwise), Salagir—at least to me—is really akin to someone like George Lucas. Based on his responses, Salagir comes across as someone who feels improvement is unnecessary; what he's written is some solid stuff and no one can convince him otherwise. If you do have a problem, it might just be fundamentally rooted in personal bias.

Uh, what? George Lucas is known specifically for being a guy who keeps trying to improve things where most people don't think improvements are necessary, and who is very much aware of his work being flawed and that people have legitimate criticism. He was passionate, but he never knocked the fans for not liking his stuff. The only thing he really got on people's case about was them harassing the actors.

[TheGodfather93]

This is the culmination of a months-long retcon, all for Bra's sake. It was clear back in June, and it's only gotten more blatant since. Complete with sympathetic angles, shading, and yes, even googly eyes, now combined with manipulating our instinctive response to seeing a young girl get hit by an adult male. (If Bra were a guy, this scenario would be very different.) We've seen a character with exactly one positive quality--that she shed a tear for Pan once--kill families and friends while laughing and boasting, and had the ability to break free but only did so when her strength was challenged... just receive a full-on pardon with no lasting consequences while her dad gets retconned into an abusive father and thrown under the bus.

I love this last bit. I reckon if Asura wasn't such a damn good artist, Salagir's attempts at emotional manipulation would be far less effective.

[Fable]

Uh, what? George Lucas is known specifically for being a guy who keeps trying to improve things where most people don't think improvements are necessary, and who is very much aware of his work being flawed and that people have legitimate criticism. He was passionate, but he never knocked the fans for not liking his stuff. The only thing he really got on people's case about was them harassing the actors.

Lucas did not take kindly to criticism or even friendly suggestions of any kind and several of the actors and staff involved with the films can attest to this. Even when he would concede to change something as little as dialogue, it wouldn't be without some heavy convincing. Unlike the original trilogy where staff and talents would intervene, Lucas had practically surrounded himself with yes-men during the production of the prequels and they suffered because of it. Not only that, but his attitude towards fans wanting a re-release of the original trilogy in its purest form spoke volumes:

AP: Why not release both the originals and special editions on DVD?

Lucas: The special edition, that’s the one I wanted out there. The other movie, it’s on VHS, if anybody wants it. ... I’m not going to spend the, we’re talking millions of dollars here, the money and the time to refurbish that, because to me, it doesn’t really exist anymore. It’s like this is the movie I wanted it to be, and I’m sorry you saw half a completed film and fell in love with it. But I want it to be the way I want it to be. I’m the one who has to take responsibility for it. I’m the one who has to have everybody throw rocks at me all the time, so at least if they’re going to throw rocks at me, they’re going to throw rocks at me for something I love rather than something I think is not very good, or at least something I think is not finished.

AP: Do you pay much attention to fan reactions to your choices?

Lucas: Not really. The movies are what the movies are. ... The thing about science-fiction fans and “Star Wars” fans is they’re very independent-thinking people. They all think outside the box, but they all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I’m making the movies, so I should have it my way.

There are many more examples of Lucas' stubbornness, but I'm not going to derail the thread.

[Jackalope89]

This is the culmination of a months-long retcon, all for Bra's sake. It was clear back in June, and it's only gotten more blatant since. Complete with sympathetic angles, shading, and yes, even googly eyes, now combined with manipulating our instinctive response to seeing a young girl get hit by an adult male. (If Bra were a guy, this scenario would be very different.) We've seen a character with exactly one positive quality--that she shed a tear for Pan once--kill families and friends while laughing and boasting, and had the ability to break free but only did so when her strength was challenged... just receive a full-on pardon with no lasting consequences while her dad gets retconned into an abusive father and thrown under the bus.

I love this last bit. I reckon if Asura wasn't such a damn good artist, Salagir's attempts at emotional manipulation would be far less effective.

Honestly, Asura could even do the actual series, and I could see people praising the artwork.

[Kanassa]

Uh, what? George Lucas is known specifically for being a guy who keeps trying to improve things where most people don't think improvements are necessary, and who is very much aware of his work being flawed and that people have legitimate criticism. He was passionate, but he never knocked the fans for not liking his stuff. The only thing he really got on people's case about was them harassing the actors.

Lucas did not take kindly to criticism or even friendly suggestions of any kind and several of the actors and staff involved with the films can attest to this. Even when he would concede to change something as little as dialogue, it wouldn't be without some heavy convincing. Unlike the original trilogy where staff and talents would intervene, Lucas had practically surrounded himself with yes-men during the production of the prequels and they suffered because of it. Not only that, but his attitude towards fans wanting a re-release of the original trilogy in its purest form spoke volumes:

AP: Why not release both the originals and special editions on DVD?

Lucas: The special edition, that’s the one I wanted out there. The other movie, it’s on VHS, if anybody wants it. ... I’m not going to spend the, we’re talking millions of dollars here, the money and the time to refurbish that, because to me, it doesn’t really exist anymore. It’s like this is the movie I wanted it to be, and I’m sorry you saw half a completed film and fell in love with it. But I want it to be the way I want it to be. I’m the one who has to take responsibility for it. I’m the one who has to have everybody throw rocks at me all the time, so at least if they’re going to throw rocks at me, they’re going to throw rocks at me for something I love rather than something I think is not very good, or at least something I think is not finished.

AP: Do you pay much attention to fan reactions to your choices?

Lucas: Not really. The movies are what the movies are. ... The thing about science-fiction fans and “Star Wars” fans is they’re very independent-thinking people. They all think outside the box, but they all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I’m making the movies, so I should have it my way.

There are many more examples of Lucas' stubbornness, but I'm not going to derail the thread.

I'm not saying he wasn't stubborn, I was more meaning that there's a difference between "I have a vision and want to pursue it no matter what" and "This is flawless, needs no improvements and all critics are just wrong.".

[Fable]

Fair enough.

Out of curiosity, what direction would you guys like for Bra to take in the story?

[Kanassa]

Fair enough.

Out of curiosity, what direction would you guys like for Bra to take in the story?

I really don't see any direction they could take Bra at this point that wouldn't feel forced or unearned. At best, I could maybe buy her and Vegito talking it out and maybe agreeing to some sort of punishment and dropping out of the tournament, but then that would just be anti-climactic.

[Jackalope89]

Fair enough.

Out of curiosity, what direction would you guys like for Bra to take in the story?

Honestly, you would have to go back and undo quite a few things first.

[ZeroNeonix]

Fair enough.

Out of curiosity, what direction would you guys like for Bra to take in the story?

Next page, Gohan wakes up and realizes the entire Bra arc was a really weird dream he had after being knocked out by a blow to the head. Problem solved.

[Lord Frieza]

This more or less sums up my thoughts as well and I barely remembered half of this shit.. Gotenks being the voice of reason doesn't bother me much because for what Salagir is trying to convey in this particular instance someone has to fill that role and from what I remember both Piccolo's are out of commission at the moment.

I think that might be part of the problem on the fan side of things. DBM has been going for the nearly 13 years, at a snails pace no less. It’s really easy to forget some of this stuff unless your actively re-reading the comic or have a good memory for its details.

Another factor that’s been pointed out is how Salagir is actively undoing the character development Vegetto had. One of the core pieces of character development for him is his struggle against who he once was. Vegetto is not Goku or Vegeta, he’s his own person yet he has been saddled with what they left behind when they fused. He feels very suffocated at times because of this yet he tries to do the right thing.

Now we’re are being told the opposite. Vegetto is not his own person, and Vegeta and Goku’s mistakes are his own also. Just because Vegeta gave into his mid life crisis means that Vegetto has no right to speak and his first hand knowledge of how the Majin process affected Vegeta should be ignored.

[FoolsGil]

Fair enough.

Out of curiosity, what direction would you guys like for Bra to take in the story?

Vegetto forces the Vargas to use a set of dragonballs to strip a huge portion of Bra's power from her, Then she's forced to forfeit to Gast, and finally, sent to her room, no supper. However, because like it or not Dragonball's themes of self improvement and redemption is paramount, Old Kai comes to the girl after he finishes with Raditz and will do two things: 1) Spirit Quest Therapy Session and 2) Unlock her full potential ( He'll say his magic exceeds the dragons) and for free. (He knows not to grope a girl in her lowest moment, if only because he likes existing) Then whenever XXI or Vegetto, or whoever becomes the end series villain, and has wiped the floor with pretty much everyone, Bra comes out, able to access all of her power in her base state and will effectively hold the line until Gogeta gets the win.

It won't change my feelings on Bra completely, but based on where things have gone, this is the only way she could be salvaged. At the moment she feels remorse, at the moment she feels guilt. She still needs to be punished, but based on the fact she's not kicking and screaming in defiance I don't know if an execution (or getting beaten to death) is the right call at least not without a trial, which though interesting is not the stuff Dragonball does. So we bring her lower, take things from her, ground her. Then build her back up to be something more. But even then she doesn't secure the win. She still has further to grow and this was just the first step, so in the end she will defer to Gogeta, and spend the rest of her life becoming the hero everyone wanted her to be.

[miguelnuva1]

Bra from what I seen needs someone to actually believe in her the way Gohan tried. Had she not split him in half and had him be the one to talk her down the story would have been Gold.

[Lord Frieza]

Bra from what I seen needs someone to actually believe in her the way Gohan tried. Had she not split him in half and had him be the one to talk her down the story would have been Gold.

It would be far more logical then how the story has developed. One of the big issues with Bra is that prior to a few months ago, she was depicted as having a loving support network who all did their best to help her. Gohan especially did his best to teach her and Vegetto, while he had little patience for her at times, has also been shown to be better with her to.

Bra's core issue is that her power is to great for her to control and worse, that power has gone to her head, making her very amoral at times. Thats what her interactions worth Gohan and Vegetto have show us, and yet we also see that for all of her willingness to kill and hurt others, she loves her family and doesn't want to hurt them. She got upset when she realised she'd gone out of control against Buu and hurt Gohan and Vegetto. It's this that should have caused her conflict as a majin, not being passive, what ever the hell that ment.

Bra suffers from a similur problem to her father, at least thats whats shown in the earlier parts of the comic. She's to strong for someone her age and her power makes her go out of control, while Vegetto suffers from terminal boredom because he's to strong, which takes him to some very dark places mentally. Also both are weighed down by a ton of responsibility, which must be truly grating at times.

So she wants to be free, to cut loose, use her power as she wants and dame the consequences, which is how Babidi got a hold of her but in her heart she doesn't want to hurt her family. That should have been the conflict, that when it came down to wire Bra, for all her arrogance and desire for freedom, can't bring herself to cut that last chain of humanity. To kill someone she loves.

Thats why the story as is falls apart. Bra has murdered her own brother in cold blood and only broke free because she was told she was passive, a thing that makes no sense given what was shown, and instead we have to now go on a months long retcon to turn Vegetto in a total bastard so that Bra can seem less awful then she actually is.

Edit:

As far as reception to audience criticism is concerned (constructive or otherwise), Salagir—at least to me—is really akin to someone like George Lucas. Based on his responses, Salagir comes across as someone who feels improvement is unnecessary; what he's written is some solid stuff and no one can convince him otherwise. If you do have a problem, it might just be fundamentally rooted in personal bias.

Spoiler:

And this is why I dropped this comic years ago. I've got no problem with an artist sticking to his guns or telling the story he wants to tell, but at the same time none is above criticism and Salagir dose in the face of fair criticism is just childish. Toriyama loves to troll the fan base but he never dose it in a way that feels mean spirited, also the man owned up to his flaws and limitations as a writer. Better still he even listened to his critics and editors and tried to better his stories as a result.

And for those wondering, yes I've come back to DBM solely because of the current state of affairs. Think of me what you will but it's bloody sweet vindication to see more people open their eyes to how flawed this is after years of other treating it like the second coming of Dragon Ball.

[Skar]

And for those wondering, yes I've come back to DBM solely because of the current state of affairs. Think of me what you will but it's bloody sweet vindication to see more people open their eyes to how flawed this is after years of other treating it like the second coming of Dragon Ball.

I think you might have the wrong idea. The authors and every fan I've seen considers it a mere fan comic and one of many out there. Long time fans have been criticizing and making parodies that poke fun of bad story decisions for years. To me personally, peak Dragon Ball ended decades ago when Toriyama was in his prime. I consider all fanwork just fun alternate universes and homages to the original series.

The only reward for fanwork is feedback from other fans. I admit I always like seeing comments when I post a parody even negative feedback because it means someone took the time to leave a comment. If you don't get any feedback, you might feel like no one saw anything worth commenting on and discouraging . I've never had anyone vindictive towards anything I've made but I guess my reaction would be "well it's an honor you would consider it worthy of vindication but it's just silly fanfiction. It's not deserving of that much of your attention or energy if you get no enjoyment out of it".

I don't like Bra, the ending of the Majin Rebellion, or Vegetto getting blamed here and I look forward to when this subplot ends to see more of the characters I do like. If I reached a point that I no longer enjoyed the story or looked forward to to seeing future developments, I would definitely stop reading. There's so much easily accessible entertainment on the internet that I wouldn't consider it worth wasting time on anything I don't enjoy anymore. I offer what I think is constructive criticism because I'm still a fan of it but I wouldn't be invested enough to comment that much if I completely lost interest in it.

[Lord Frieza]

And for those wondering, yes I've come back to DBM solely because of the current state of affairs. Think of me what you will but it's bloody sweet vindication to see more people open their eyes to how flawed this is after years of other treating it like the second coming of Dragon Ball.

I think you might have the wrong idea. The authors and every fan I've seen considers it a mere fan comic and one of many out there. Long time fans have been criticizing and making parodies that poke fun of bad story decisions for years. To me personally, peak Dragon Ball ended decades ago when Toriyama was in his prime. I consider all fanwork just fun alternate universes and homages to the original series.

The only reward for fanwork is feedback from other fans. I admit I always like seeing comments when I post a parody even negative feedback because it means someone took the time to leave a comment. If you don't get any feedback, you might feel like no one saw anything worth commenting on and discouraging . I've never had anyone vindictive towards anything I've made but I guess my reaction would be "well it's an honor you would consider it worthy of vindication but it's just silly fanfiction. It's not deserving of that much of your attention or energy if you get no enjoyment out of it".

I don't like Bra, the ending of the Majin Rebellion, or Vegetto getting blamed here and I look forward to when this subplot ends to see more of the characters I do like. If I reached a point that I no longer enjoyed the story or looked forward to to seeing future developments, I would definitely stop reading. There's so much easily accessible entertainment on the internet that I wouldn't consider it worth wasting time on anything I don't enjoy anymore. I offer what I think is constructive criticism because I'm still a fan of it but I wouldn't be invested enough to comment that much if I completely lost interest in it.

A very above it all comment, and I believe every word by the way so I’m not taking the piss, but I remember how hard many people defended this years back. All the videos saying this is the true continuation of Dragon Ball and instant back lash of criticism. I also recall Salagir’s arrogant attitude even all the way back then.

So when I went to that site and saw how things had changed, sweet vindication. Petty and very human, yet no less sweet. I’d forgotten about DBM until this year, when started feeling like chatting about DB again. I dont wast that much time on it as you think. It’s a fun little diversion for the time being that provides me the kind of vindication only time brings.

I’m not saying it’s right or that it’s not silly, I’m only human and we humans can be that way. Just being honest about it.Not saying you aren’t btw, we’re just different kinds of people. I very rarely let myself be like this to be honest.

[Fable]

"Do you think I voluntarily submitted to Babidi?"

Well...yes.