If Vegeta’s “goal” is TRULY to surpass Kakkarot.. Then he’s definitely going about it THE WRONG WAY!

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
Kinokima
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Re: If Vegeta’s “goal” is TRULY to surpass Kakkarot.. Then he’s definitely going about it THE WRONG WAY!

Post by Kinokima » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:00 pm

TBMx wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:48 am
Kinokima wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:42 am
TBMx wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:31 am


The manga explicitly shows he learned UI from the lessons of his past mentors including Whis. I'm honestly not sure what manga you're reading.

No I am contradicting your extreme exaggeration that it took years for Goku to learn Ultra Instinct

Yes the manga has a well written scene of Goku understanding UI because of all the lessons he learned from his masters especially from watching his first Master Roshi but this was not something that was developed over the years. It’s a single scene that Toyo or Toriyama just came up with. We didn’t see Goku try and struggle to learn UI throughout the manga leading up to that scene. Everything happened in that same arc. Just like Vegeta learned spirit fission & Goku fully mastered UI in the next full arc

You also make it like Vegeta is just going to see a new power up and get it that very second.

It took him his entire life up to this point because his learning of UI was portrayed as the culmination of all the lessons from all the mentors he had. Thats literally the justification the manga gave for him changing and you're effectively saying he could have done it without that. Which is just ignoring whats on the page.

Vegeta will likely get it this arc, and will surrender his mind to destruction. Thats fine by him even though him surrending his mind to mindless UI is not. Vegeta's a bum and a dumpster fire at this point so I'm past caring. I'm just pointing out the irony that fans support him not surrending his mind to UI but also support him surrendering his mind to this. Again it's just because Toriyama does it. He can do anything and fans defend it.
I like the UI scene in the manga and never said there was no justification (unlike the anime) I am just disagreeing with you that this was based on years of build up. It’s a single scene that was created after the fact taking things that were written previously. It’s still one scene though. Years of back up would mean it was planned all along which obviously is not the case


Even an earlier scene of Whis mentioning moving on your own to me does not equal years of build up


As for Vegeta I’ll wait and see before judging but you already made up your mind how it’s going to go

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Re: If Vegeta’s “goal” is TRULY to surpass Kakkarot.. Then he’s definitely going about it THE WRONG WAY!

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:34 pm

TBMx wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 11:48 am
Vegeta will likely get it this arc, and will surrender his mind to destruction. Thats fine by him even though him surrending his mind to mindless UI is not. Vegeta's a bum and a dumpster fire at this point so I'm past caring. I'm just pointing out the irony that fans support him not surrending his mind to UI but also support him surrendering his mind to this. Again it's just because Toriyama does it. He can do anything and fans defend it.



Being a fan does not automatically need to mean one should never criticize Toriyama, correct.
But i don't immediately see why this aspect is bad writing.

It does somehow make sense, if you desperately want to become stronger than someone else, and MUI may be less 'sooted' for you, you'll start to search other ways within the divine realm. Moreover: if you can obtain that goal by different means than your opponent, satisfaction may be even higher if you beat him while using that different technique you figured out that Goku may not even know off.

Vegeta does not know of "the writers trope he should never surpass Kakarot".
He just wants to obtain his aim.

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Re: If Vegeta’s “goal” is TRULY to surpass Kakkarot.. Then he’s definitely going about it THE WRONG WAY!

Post by jd55513 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:14 pm

This is my analysis of Goku and Moro from the Galactic Patrol arc: comment on Seththeprogrammer video:
Yes, I'm glad you caught the Galactus influence! Moro is not a being of pure evil, since Dragon Ball is based on Eastern Philosophy and their isnt an absolute notion of that, especially in Buddhism.
Here is my character analysis of Goku and the reasons he had the senzu bean thing. Again this is based on lots of Buddhism and some Christianity.
The character archetype of Goku, is a synthesis of Shintoism, Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism. In this case,
For Buddhism they believe in innate buddhahood for all sentient beings(which includes all evil doers like King Piccolo, Frieza, Cell, Kid Buu, Zamasu, and even Moro). Goku is like a "Bodhisattva" which, are enlightened beings who strive to get others to achieve enlightenment and awakening.

They believe in universal compassion. This is why Goku is written to be pure "kokoro" (heart) and empty minded. forgiving, as well as doing things like giving a senzu bean, or giving mercy to the most malicious beings in the universe.

Goku's character archetype is based on the central character in Journey to the West, Son Wukong. The story is about a tale of retrieving buddhist scrolls from India.
It's also apparent that Eastern Philosophy is there. Because historically, Buddhism spread from India to China and then Japan. As it spread to China. The Shaolin Monks incorporated Buddhism into their martial arts(Kung fu) as it spread to Japan, in influenced the way of the warrior, or Bushido. (Zen Buddhism)
One of the coolest things to come from Dragon Ball, is "Migatti No Gokui". Geekdom101 did a video on it's basis, which is Mushin. However, I also believe it to be a reference to a real life swordsman named Miyamoto Musashi, he founded a Zen Buddhist school of thought, for kenjutsu technique called niten'ichi (二天一, "two heavens as one") or nitōichi (二刀一, "two swords as one") or 'Niten Ichi-ryū' (A Kongen Buddhist Sutra refers to the two heavens as the two guardians of Buddha). 
All of Son Goku's lessons from his martial arts masters(Roshi, Korin, Popo, Kami, King Kai, Whis, and even Merus, have all led up to his spiritual culmination, the mastery of self movement.

Goku being a pure and empty minded being, is the first step in spiritual enlightenment in achieving such a state. Goku's inner aggregates is his selfish desire to fight. He queals this desire to fight (even if temporarily) and that is what allows him to achieve Ultra Instinct.
Goku, detest taking life, because it takes away from people's potential(regardless of them being evil entities). In Buddhism everyone is capable of buddhahood and enlightenment, even all of the villains of the series.
Goku fights to conquer himself, which is the turtle school way of martial arts, and martial arts is based on Daoism and Zen Buddhism.  Well it's true that Son Goku's character has struggled with this lessons, time and time again. I believe it's still consistent with the character archetype, which is to show compassion to your enemies, no matter how wicked or "evil" they may be. Moro is basically Galactus, who continues to remain youthful, as long as he consumes planets with life. For as long as he has existed, that has been his M.O. Goku after he defeated Moro initially, asked Moro if he had trained, to which Moro has responded that he hadn't. The point of this conversation, wasn't the training, it was mercy, a chance at self reflection.
Moro is a being, who is caught in selfishness, who is obsessed with the five aggregates in Buddhism. This is a pattern that affects most mortals, and keeps them from reaching Tathagata and enlightenment.
Beings who relentlessly cling to mortal obsessions will find themselves in a vicous, never ending cycle of reincarnation. They will experience "dukka"(suffering) and "anatta"(impermanence). Until they let go of their illusionary self's.
Goku, in this conversation, showed compassion to a being, who had tried to kill him multiple times. This is the "universal compassion montra" that Bodhisattva examplfiy.
Is it annoying writing, to Westerners? Yes.
Does it make sense in the cultural context? Yes.

Again, I should make clear, Goku himself, hasn't reach this stage of englightment. Goku mind is "empty", which is based on the Song Wukong character archetype. Having a empty mind, is the first step in Buddhist englightment. This was also the reason he was able to use "Migatti no Gokui" The height of martial arts. Goku to some extent, had let go of his selfish desire to fight(by that, I mean, the saiyan drive to enjoy fighting), if temporarily.
Goku doesn't really reach the kind of Bodhisattva level enlightenment, until he meets Uub. Or if you enjoy GT, when he beats Omega Shenron

In the East, specifically in terms of Buddhism, the primary struggle facing people is the cultivation of self and freeing themselves from the cycle of samsara. Those who selfishly pursue things will be forced to endlessly reincarnate and thus, continue to experience "dukka"(suffering) and "anatta"(impermance) until they let go of the five aggregates of Buddhism.

In Confucianism, You have a humanist centered philosophy, that espouses, the flourishing of society as being the best good. Anything deviating from this or the virtues of a enlightened individual in society leads to the imbalance and gives the impression of "Evil". that is Specifically to "way of the gentlemen" are benevolence (ren 仁), righteousness (yi 義), ritual propriety (li 禮), wisdom (zhi 智), and trustworthiness (xin 信).

However, in Shintoism, there is a struggle and balancing of kegare ("pollution" or "impurity"), while ensuring harae ("purity"). Which contradicts some Buddhist ideas of the non-self(atman)

I really think people need to understand that the Eastern Philosophy in Asian cultures is vastly different than in Western cultures.
In regards to Metaphysics and Ethics, it is night and day on concepts of Gods and Evil.
There is no ultimate good or evil in Eastern philosophy. There is only relative good and evil. "All undertakings are beset with imperfections, as fire with smoke" (Gita 18.48).
In Daoism, you have the Cosmic Yin and Yang. Which is Dialectical monism, also known as dualistic monism. This is not to be confused with just monism(the idea that reality is built on things of a material substance, like atomism). This is a special case of ontology (study of being) where the forces represent themselves, as perceptions in the realm of the minds, not substantive nature. It's also merely an illusion like Buddhism.

For example, Evil in the East is not a "substance" in a monist point of view. It does not have matter associated with it.
This should be obvious, as you don't see "evil" or "good" on the periodic table of elements. Even if you trace evil down to some basic element of thing in common across cultures or religion and even science, you will find that it's only rooted in perception, it's a idea that is found only in the minds of observers. It possesses no material form outside subjective experience, hence it's relative and not objective. There are no cells that produce evil, humans don't produce evil, the Universe doesn't produce evil. Everything has a purpose in the Universe. Marcus Singer says: "If something is really evil, it can't be necessary, and if it is really necessary, it can't be evil"


In the West, from a theological point of view, St. Augustine viewed evil as a "privation of good" he didn't believe Evil was created since that would deconstruct the presumption that a God was perfect in the sense of omnipotent, all good, and omniscient.

Also in the West, people tend to believe in a concept in Theodicy called the "vale of soul making". This would be the explaination for the problem of evil. That is, the existence of evil as a phenomenological effect, that motivates and breeds self cultivation of behavior and harmonious virtues in mortals.

The reason I added the stuff about evil and Godhood, is that people always struggle with coming to terms of why don't Whis or the Kaioshins or the other Gods, actually intervene. This is a struggle that parallels actual history in theology and is across cultures.
Thinking of these things, helps to appreciate the ideas behind the fiction.

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