Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[jd55513]

My debate with Emosh and Unreal on Beerus and UI Goku

https://youtu.be/Zfcb_6SHEYE

Can you summarize the most relevant points?

Beerus power analysis:
My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:

The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?

All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:

In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.





If you agree that UI and Hakai are techniques of the Gods that use God ki, and if you agree with Whis analysis that UI Goku is still the lowest tier of that technique, and if you agree with the statement by whis that UI is a Technique that "avoids any and all danger however severe" and if you agree with the statements by Beerus, that Hakai has different tiers and is based on the Buddhist-Daoist state of mind, but emptiness, except for destruction, and if you agree with my explanation of UI as a power up different than the S cells of Saiyan transformations, and finally if you agree that Beerus is the highest tier of Hakai, we have seen, then Beerus is better at a godly technique than goku's godly technique.
Which means all goku can do against Beerus who is also using a similar god technique (Hakai) is dodge and attempt to land hits on Beerus, but since Goku has not mastered UI, he leaks ki as radiation in the form of heat, sweat, and light, meaning, like a light bulb or a heat engine, you eventually run out of ki due to efficiency (ki control and such) Beerus has more ki(his base is larger than goku's base) so Goku would have no way of countering hakai, and it would be a battle of stamina, efficiency and endurance, which I argued Beerus has better ki control.




Points i made in the discord:
Why is SSB Goku weaker than SSB Mastered in the same arc?
@Emosh They are the same form no? They are both the same transformations state(except: ki control is why one is stronger than the other) that's why I brought up energy and it's properties (i.e radiation in the form of heat and light)
Think of a light bulb, it radiants energy no? That energy is a form of light and heat correct?
Lightbulbs lose energy over time due to this and "efficiency" which is the same principle of ki control

Hence why I brought up the principal in each iterations of the forms.



@Inevitable Angels have more ki than Gods of destruction.

I said that UI and Hakai have similar mechanics and tiers to one another

You agree that UI Goku is weaker than Whis correct? Why is that, if they are both using the same technique? Ki
Whis is better at Ki control in UI than Goku is in UI correct?


@Emosh except you gave the correct answer to my question.

Is SSB Goku mastered, more powerful than SSB Goku?

You said it was because of ki?
No it was because of ki control

They are the same form. Except one uses more power than the other

SSB Goku got clapped by merged zamasu correct, the SSB Mastered Goku, clapped Merged Zamasu. If they are the same form and have the same ki, that means "efficiency" or ki control is what allows one to be better than the other



@Emosh Akira Toriyama said in a interview, that there are two ways to increase your "power" have more "ki", or have more "ki control"
If you agree that the forms are the same(they are,barring zenkai or training) then goku's ki is the same in both forms, BUT his ki control is DIFFERENT so that manifest itself as "more power"




@Inevitable The light bulb analogy represents the principles in the series.
For example and like I said in the debate: Does Toriyama have to name drop a concept, for it to exist in the story. Is gravity in the story of DB?
Is ki a form of energy? If so, I can talk about the properties of energy correct?
If you agree that there are different "levels" of UI than you just agreed to my argument.
For example:
What is the difference between SSJ Goku and MSSJ Goku?
Same form correct?
Same amount of "ki" correct?
What is different is the ki....control

Which is the same principle of "efficiency" in physics, which is why I gave you the light bulb example.
Also

Goku hasn't mastered UI. He has "mastered" how to tap into the form willingly, he has not mastered the technique, hence why there are tiers of UI based on ....ki..... and.....ki control.


@Inevitable He mastered how to "tap" into UI not mastering the form itself.

Apply the logic of what I said earlier.

Goku mastered SSJ , Goku mastered SSG and SSB. He has not mastered the ki control of UI, hence why you see a aura and heat around him.
Remember Whis training

Don't let your ki leak?



My first premise in the video: Dragon Ball is shifting away from Brute force to technique
Example: Moro and 73

 @Kylon Bell  In order to understand that we have to establish a couple of things: Akira Toriyama said that in order to get more powerful or stronger, you have to do two things:
Have more "ki" or have more "ki control"

73 with his ability is weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta(he has less "ki" then them) Ithink you can agree to that. But what makes him more "powerful" is his technique his ...copy technique.

Also consider that he is a alien Andriod and has infinite stamina like the Andriods on Earth.
Now consider this:
It is revealed by Moro that Seven-Three had copied both his magic and combat ability, making him as powerful as Moro after he had spent two months draining energy from planets - and thus elevated Moro to a level beyond that after he absorbed Seven-Three

That Moro that was "copied" was Full Power Youthful Moro, who was stronger than UI Omen Goku.
Do you see where I'm going?

Moro lost to SSBE Vegeta who used a Technique to weaken Moro with all the "ki" he absorbed correct?

We agree that Old man Moro is weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta because they have more "ki" correct?

If you agree, then the fusion was Old Man Moro+ Full power Moro, with all of 73 abilities (piccolo healing, Gohan, Vegeta, and Moro's stuff)
Moro got more "powerful" as a result of the fusion giving him all the ki accumulated from 73 and Moro's magic, putting him over all the fighters at the part in the arc.


 @Kylon Bell  That's a lot of contradictions, perhaps you should re read what you just said.

You said "ki is the equivalent of power" that is not true.
Power is a "measure" of energy or ki,
Think of the scouters, they "measure" ....power levels... or ki or raw energy.

As for your Moro "tricks or magic"
That was technique that allowed him use one of the methods of get stronger, being ki or better ki control.

His magic increased his ki, which made him stronger, then like I said above, he got stronger by using a magic "technique" to eat 73 and obtain all his abilities and ki

[GodVegetto91]

Your statement is actually the epitome of fiction.

The strongest warrior in the universe [U7] is about to be born. That automatically removes Broly from your head scale. Since this event is going to happen, The Oracle fish also said that "Universe 7's balance is shifting." This means Goku will no longer be the strongest in the universe. This statement also justify's Goku crowning Moro as the "toughest" he has ever faced; also means the strongest. Again, this pushes Broly/Gogeta down the hole even further.

Now we have a technique from Beerus that would make even Vegeta possibly surpass this current Goku. Both of them haven't even "become" strong enough to rival Beerus yet. Therefore making your placing of Beerus null and void. Your whole scale is not story accurate.

This is all false hype.. I wouldn’t pay any attention to it. You will see in the end that I was right.

I also wanted to add something to what I stated earlier. I completely doubt that you will be right. When you aren't even correct now.

Your premise goes against the author's eternal and cemented rules of the story. Where Toriyama himself has stated twice after BoG; Goku progressively fights the "mightiest-foe" "every time." Toriyama even concluded that he won't let people tell him the current enemy is weaker than the last. So you trying to put Broly above Moro and the current enemy in power is wishful thinking. Especially when Toriyama said that logic would indeed be "a step back" for our heroes.

As for those who are pleading ignorance on whether Goku is stronger than Beerus. This is only true if you cherry pick the story. We know for a fact that Goku is not stronger than Beerus. Since the plot of the Oracle Fish's prophecy has not yet come to pass. Unless the fandom can show me in the writing where the narration changed and stated Goku/vegeta are indeed even "formidable?" For get the fact about just being stronger, Where in the story has it stated or shown that they became strong enough to even give Beerus a challenge?

Lets not jump the gun people. Lets just take what the story gives us and enjoy it.

You shouldn’t be so certain. That comes across as highly arrogant. Especially when you’re wrong. I’ve also already stated that yes, while I agree with you that it’s normally the norm that the next enemy is stronger than the previous one.. This will NOT be the case when FUSIONS are involved!

So Granolah >>>> Moro Merus >>> Jiren still stands. I agree with you on that one. But Broly is off limits.

I’d love to be proven wrong though!

Because that would mean I will finally have an actual ANSWER.. But for now we’re left in the dust.

We’ll see what time brings..

[Xeno Goku Black]

So how strong is this Granolah supposed to be?

Monaito believes he'd be no match at all for Frieza who he didn't even know was revived singed be talking about old Frieza and even then nobody was supposed to know he could transform.

So Granolah would be weaker than First Form Frieza? But he took down those OG Soldiers so easily. So then are they just really weak compared to Seven Three?

[OrangeBanana]

So how strong is this Granolah supposed to be?

Monaito believes he'd be no match at all for Frieza who he didn't even know was revived singed be talking about old Frieza and even then nobody was supposed to know he could transform.

So Granolah would be weaker than First Form Frieza? But he took down those OG Soldiers so easily. So then are they just really weak compared to Seven Three?

I think Granola currently is about Namek Goku level perhaps (pre zenkai), when fighting the OG's he used their weakspot to quickly defeat them as I doubt he'd win in a straight up fight.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Gas and Granola are weaker than Nail, to be honest. I wouldn’t think that Elec would have underlings stronger than Ginyu Force members, considering how he tried to not get involved with Freeza.

[GodVegetto91]

My debate with Emosh and Unreal on Beerus and UI Goku

https://youtu.be/Zfcb_6SHEYE

Can you summarize the most relevant points?

Beerus power analysis:
My take on the Beerus being better than Goku, Vegeta, Jiren and Moro:

The paradigm of Dragon Ball has shifted from brute strength to techniques correct?

All of the training Goku and Vegeta has done in Super has been to prevent their ki from leaking correct? Why is that? Because power is condensed and concentrated.
Look at some of the feats Beerus has done as early as the first couple episodes. He has flicked a SSj3 Goku, Tapped a planet in half with his fingers, sneezed a planet away on accident and obviously has Hakai.
The first point I'm making is up to the current arc, would you not agree that Beerus still has greater Ki control than Goku, Vegeta and Jiren?
In a fight, if you sustain a appreciable amount of damage, you lose ki, keep this in mind.
Ultra Instinct is a state of mind that again is based on the current level of power as the individual.
Ultra Instinct has NOT been mastered based on the current chapters, and the fact that Goku has not mastered the ki control of Ultra Instinct.
This is important because Beerus base strength is still far greater than Goku is, In the current arc
When Goku mastered SSJ and then in Super, learned Blue, was it already mastered? No, it wasn’t. The same can be applied to Ultra Instinct:

In regards to Ultra Instance and its proposed mastery, Goku mastered tapping into it! Goku mastered is the principles in which allow him to tap into Ultra Instinct, and not that he has honed Ultra Instinct to the utmost of its ability as a technique, just see Whis recent comments of UI Goku….
That's why it's marketed as "Mastered" or "Completed" because Ultra Instinct, as Merus said, is HAVING SELF-CONTROL in the face of jarring shock to your emotions.
Goku has MASTERED having self-control. He just needs to HONE his instincts, and find a fighting style unique only to him and his bodies motion with Ultra Instinct.
Incorrect, it has everything to do with each form. If your energy leaks out as heat and vapor, you lose physical strength, which Goku understood
In regards to Ki control, as manifested through all of the transformations we have see: The large amount of Ki present in a particular form could affect your ability to effectively control it. SSJ3 being a prime example. Each form affects the body differently until the drawbacks it has are addressed and corrected.
The issue is, Goku and Vegeta's bodies were not strong enough to withstand that much power from leaking at the time, hence why they had ki auras while in Super Saiyan Blue, which is why Blue was always displayed poorly against villains in early DB Super
Getting back to my argument, Goku has not mastered ki control on his complete ultra instinct state, this is a problem, because he loses strength as the battle passes. Beerus in his character we have seen, has better ki control.
Beerus base strength is greater than current Goku's base strength correct, including the blue Kaioken x20 multipler correct?
If you agree it that, Goku's only option would be compete ultra instinct, which would be formidable to Beerus, however that's where ki control comes into play
We now know that hakai is a state of mind with tiers and different abilities like Ultra Instinct, so based on that scaling and the feat we just saw with Vegetas armor being hakai, I would argue that Beerus in his hakai mode would easily crush goku, if he caught him, which he would, since goku would eventually lose his strength and speed as we have seen against Jiren and Moro
Again, based on ki control, the current paradigm of power
I believe he tapped out of it, against planet Moro, because he hasn't perfected UI in regards to ki control, meaning he constantly radiates wasted energy as heat and vapor
The form hasn't been mastered in regard to ki control, yes Goku has trained his body to now wield it without strain
And why do you think he got caught against Planet Moro (besides the energy absorption, which we don’t know if Moro was using it earlier in the battle)? because he was losing speed and power, based on the lack of ki control.
The way I see Dragon Ball is with some basic thermodynamics, I view the character as heat engines, and apply the concept of stored energy, work, power and efficiency(in this analogy, this would be the “ki control”)
In physics whether, mechanical or biological, you lose energy based on physical conditions and efficiency(energy is lost by conversion due to heat primarily)
The character in dragon ball can be modeled simply based on that analogy.
Beerus has displayed far greater feats of ki control and seemingly now, has a technique, similar to Ultra Instinct, but for Gods of Destruction.





If you agree that UI and Hakai are techniques of the Gods that use God ki, and if you agree with Whis analysis that UI Goku is still the lowest tier of that technique, and if you agree with the statement by whis that UI is a Technique that "avoids any and all danger however severe" and if you agree with the statements by Beerus, that Hakai has different tiers and is based on the Buddhist-Daoist state of mind, but emptiness, except for destruction, and if you agree with my explanation of UI as a power up different than the S cells of Saiyan transformations, and finally if you agree that Beerus is the highest tier of Hakai, we have seen, then Beerus is better at a godly technique than goku's godly technique.
Which means all goku can do against Beerus who is also using a similar god technique (Hakai) is dodge and attempt to land hits on Beerus, but since Goku has not mastered UI, he leaks ki as radiation in the form of heat, sweat, and light, meaning, like a light bulb or a heat engine, you eventually run out of ki due to efficiency (ki control and such) Beerus has more ki(his base is larger than goku's base) so Goku would have no way of countering hakai, and it would be a battle of stamina, efficiency and endurance, which I argued Beerus has better ki control.




Points i made in the discord:
Why is SSB Goku weaker than SSB Mastered in the same arc?
@Emosh They are the same form no? They are both the same transformations state(except: ki control is why one is stronger than the other) that's why I brought up energy and it's properties (i.e radiation in the form of heat and light)
Think of a light bulb, it radiants energy no? That energy is a form of light and heat correct?
Lightbulbs lose energy over time due to this and "efficiency" which is the same principle of ki control

Hence why I brought up the principal in each iterations of the forms.



@Inevitable Angels have more ki than Gods of destruction.

I said that UI and Hakai have similar mechanics and tiers to one another

You agree that UI Goku is weaker than Whis correct? Why is that, if they are both using the same technique? Ki
Whis is better at Ki control in UI than Goku is in UI correct?


@Emosh except you gave the correct answer to my question.

Is SSB Goku mastered, more powerful than SSB Goku?

You said it was because of ki?
No it was because of ki control

They are the same form. Except one uses more power than the other

SSB Goku got clapped by merged zamasu correct, the SSB Mastered Goku, clapped Merged Zamasu. If they are the same form and have the same ki, that means "efficiency" or ki control is what allows one to be better than the other



@Emosh Akira Toriyama said in a interview, that there are two ways to increase your "power" have more "ki", or have more "ki control"
If you agree that the forms are the same(they are,barring zenkai or training) then goku's ki is the same in both forms, BUT his ki control is DIFFERENT so that manifest itself as "more power"




@Inevitable The light bulb analogy represents the principles in the series.
For example and like I said in the debate: Does Toriyama have to name drop a concept, for it to exist in the story. Is gravity in the story of DB?
Is ki a form of energy? If so, I can talk about the properties of energy correct?
If you agree that there are different "levels" of UI than you just agreed to my argument.
For example:
What is the difference between SSJ Goku and MSSJ Goku?
Same form correct?
Same amount of "ki" correct?
What is different is the ki....control

Which is the same principle of "efficiency" in physics, which is why I gave you the light bulb example.
Also

Goku hasn't mastered UI. He has "mastered" how to tap into the form willingly, he has not mastered the technique, hence why there are tiers of UI based on ....ki..... and.....ki control.


@Inevitable He mastered how to "tap" into UI not mastering the form itself.

Apply the logic of what I said earlier.

Goku mastered SSJ , Goku mastered SSG and SSB. He has not mastered the ki control of UI, hence why you see a aura and heat around him.
Remember Whis training

Don't let your ki leak?



My first premise in the video: Dragon Ball is shifting away from Brute force to technique
Example: Moro and 73

 @Kylon Bell  In order to understand that we have to establish a couple of things: Akira Toriyama said that in order to get more powerful or stronger, you have to do two things:
Have more "ki" or have more "ki control"

73 with his ability is weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta(he has less "ki" then them) Ithink you can agree to that. But what makes him more "powerful" is his technique his ...copy technique.

Also consider that he is a alien Andriod and has infinite stamina like the Andriods on Earth.
Now consider this:
It is revealed by Moro that Seven-Three had copied both his magic and combat ability, making him as powerful as Moro after he had spent two months draining energy from planets - and thus elevated Moro to a level beyond that after he absorbed Seven-Three

That Moro that was "copied" was Full Power Youthful Moro, who was stronger than UI Omen Goku.
Do you see where I'm going?

Moro lost to SSBE Vegeta who used a Technique to weaken Moro with all the "ki" he absorbed correct?

We agree that Old man Moro is weaker than SSB Goku and Vegeta because they have more "ki" correct?

If you agree, then the fusion was Old Man Moro+ Full power Moro, with all of 73 abilities (piccolo healing, Gohan, Vegeta, and Moro's stuff)
Moro got more "powerful" as a result of the fusion giving him all the ki accumulated from 73 and Moro's magic, putting him over all the fighters at the part in the arc.


 @Kylon Bell  That's a lot of contradictions, perhaps you should re read what you just said.

You said "ki is the equivalent of power" that is not true.
Power is a "measure" of energy or ki,
Think of the scouters, they "measure" ....power levels... or ki or raw energy.

As for your Moro "tricks or magic"
That was technique that allowed him use one of the methods of get stronger, being ki or better ki control.

His magic increased his ki, which made him stronger, then like I said above, he got stronger by using a magic "technique" to eat 73 and obtain all his abilities and ki

We literally don’t know Beerus’ Base Full Power.. Since we’ve never seen him Pre GoD mode.. My guess is he’s equal to Base Goku (if you really understand my theory.) Beerus is much stronger than any antagonist or protagonist introduced thus far simply thanks to his insane level of ki control... Specifically, control over his Hakai energy (which is itself but another form of perfect ki control, activated by a certain mental state, which requiers no thought at all, other than that of destruction.) This IS Spirit Control! I don’t care what anyone or even Toyotaro and Toriyama say... If you have control over your mind and thoughts, it’s considered “spirit control”. That’s what it means. It’s a tautological deduction.

Beerus’ Base full power (without ANY type of ki control), may be as weak as Goku’s Base power.. (This means removing all stats like God Ki, Hakai energy (same thing in Beerus’ case, perfect ki control, certain mental states etc etc.) Beerus-sama is only this strong because of his insane level of ki control... (with all that this gives rise to...)

[Koitsukai]

So how strong is this Granolah supposed to be?

Monaito believes he'd be no match at all for Frieza who he didn't even know was revived singed be talking about old Frieza and even then nobody was supposed to know he could transform.

So Granolah would be weaker than First Form Frieza? But he took down those OG Soldiers so easily. So then are they just really weak compared to Seven Three?

We have little to go by with Granola.

Things we do know:
-he is no match for current FF Freeza.
-he thinks he can take Namek Freeza (Elec told him Freeza was now stronger, and to forget about it).
-he has the ability (not necessarily power) to put down an army of 7-3.
-he is weaker than Gas.

The last two items aren't taking us anywhere, we don't know how 7-3 compares individually to anyone, and Gas is just stronger than Granola. Also, Hit can take SSB Vegeta and that doesn't mean he was stronger than him, on the contrary.
The second item is kinda fishy. Does he know Freeza has the ability to transform? is he referring to 1st form Freeza, the one that ruled the universe with just 500,000 units of BP?
Or is he -and the universe- aware that Freeza survived Namek, became part machine, thus revealing his true power? a year passed after Namek, and Freeza was still alive and so was his army. So it is possible that word travelled around and people knew Freeza was actually many, many, many times stronger than his initial form.

So Granola may be stronger than 1st form Freeza, resulting in a hypothetical valuable ally if he'd participated in the fight in Namek... or he is stronger than whatever Freeza had to offer as a machine. He is either as strong as Piccolo-Nail, or as strong as SS Trunks, or SS Goku. He might be stronger than them, too, but we know where his roof is, he is definitely not DBS Freeza tier material... for now.

[Thani]

So how strong is this Granolah supposed to be?

Monaito believes he'd be no match at all for Frieza who he didn't even know was revived singed be talking about old Frieza and even then nobody was supposed to know he could transform.

So Granolah would be weaker than First Form Frieza? But he took down those OG Soldiers so easily. So then are they just really weak compared to Seven Three?

We have little to go by with Granola.

Things we do know:
-he is no match for current FF Freeza.
-he thinks he can take Namek Freeza (Elec told him Freeza was now stronger, and to forget about it).
-he has the ability (not necessarily power) to put down an army of 7-3.
-he is weaker than Gas.

The last two items aren't taking us anywhere, we don't know how 7-3 compares individually to anyone, and Gas is just stronger than Granola. Also, Hit can take SSB Vegeta and that doesn't mean he was stronger than him, on the contrary.
The second item is kinda fishy. Does he know Freeza has the ability to transform? is he referring to 1st form Freeza, the one that ruled the universe with just 500,000 units of BP?
Or is he -and the universe- aware that Freeza survived Namek, became part machine, thus revealing his true power? a year passed after Namek, and Freeza was still alive and so was his army. So it is possible that word travelled around and people knew Freeza was actually many, many, many times stronger than his initial form.

So Granola may be stronger than 1st form Freeza, resulting in a hypothetical valuable ally if he'd participated in the fight in Namek... or he is stronger than whatever Freeza had to offer as a machine. He is either as strong as Piccolo-Nail, or as strong as SS Trunks, or SS Goku. He might be stronger than them, too, but we know where his roof is, he is definitely not DBS Freeza tier material... for now.

At this point we probably have to admit that Toyo and Tori aren't exactly consistent with their narrative, so it's very likely that the "nobody ever saw FF Freeza" point has been forgot a long time ago and they're specifically talking about either Namek FF Freeza or even RoF Freeza. Which opens a whole can of worms, but it's something we have to consider.

[Koitsukai]

So how strong is this Granolah supposed to be?

Monaito believes he'd be no match at all for Frieza who he didn't even know was revived singed be talking about old Frieza and even then nobody was supposed to know he could transform.

So Granolah would be weaker than First Form Frieza? But he took down those OG Soldiers so easily. So then are they just really weak compared to Seven Three?

We have little to go by with Granola.

Things we do know:
-he is no match for current FF Freeza.
-he thinks he can take Namek Freeza (Elec told him Freeza was now stronger, and to forget about it).
-he has the ability (not necessarily power) to put down an army of 7-3.
-he is weaker than Gas.

The last two items aren't taking us anywhere, we don't know how 7-3 compares individually to anyone, and Gas is just stronger than Granola. Also, Hit can take SSB Vegeta and that doesn't mean he was stronger than him, on the contrary.
The second item is kinda fishy. Does he know Freeza has the ability to transform? is he referring to 1st form Freeza, the one that ruled the universe with just 500,000 units of BP?
Or is he -and the universe- aware that Freeza survived Namek, became part machine, thus revealing his true power? a year passed after Namek, and Freeza was still alive and so was his army. So it is possible that word travelled around and people knew Freeza was actually many, many, many times stronger than his initial form.

So Granola may be stronger than 1st form Freeza, resulting in a hypothetical valuable ally if he'd participated in the fight in Namek... or he is stronger than whatever Freeza had to offer as a machine. He is either as strong as Piccolo-Nail, or as strong as SS Trunks, or SS Goku. He might be stronger than them, too, but we know where his roof is, he is definitely not DBS Freeza tier material... for now.

At this point we probably have to admit that Toyo and Tori aren't exactly consistent with their narrative, so it's very likely that the "nobody ever saw FF Freeza" point has been forgot a long time ago and they're specifically talking about either Namek FF Freeza or even RoF Freeza. Which opens a whole can of worms, but it's something we have to consider.

Yeah, that's why I'm willing to give relevance to that year between Namek and Goku's return from Yadrat, and assume his army knew his FP power, and that would extend to people like Elecc, Granola, the king with many dicks, the Galactic Patrol...
I doubt someone can go from Namek 1st form Freeza tier to above UI Goku in just one arc in a believable way, so I think Granola most likely is strong enough to defeat both SS Goku and Freeza on Namek. Probably stronger, maybe we'll get something else like Granola beating a SS-SS2 tier character.

[GodVegetto91]

The one main problem ofcourse is, that they are unwilling to give us direct answers, and instead have characters make certain statements that could be up for interpretation. It’s like they’re purposely being vague almost. Hence why we get all these debates in the first place.

Now I personally believe Prime Moro > Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta > UIO Goku >>>>> Jiren > Belmod >>> GoD Toppo.

Unfortunately there’s no hard evidence for this, just as there is no hard evidence for the contrary. It’s left up for speculation.. All because Toriyama and Toyotaro were unwilling to throw in a simple quick statement about Prime Moro when he was first introduced on Planet Earth (something like: “Hey look! This guy’s even stronger than Jiren!”) But apparently, even that was too much to ask from Toriyama and Toyotaro.. It’s like they don’t care about us fans being left confused.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think there is exactly a problem with not giving direct answers. Part of the fun of this thread is having room to speculation anyway and be open-minded.

But as Miracles demonstrated extensively, it’s likely a given that Goku’s opponents get stronger the more the story progress. And Goku even implied that in his attempt to redeem Moro.

Perhaps it’s your case and for a lot of Broly fans that you feel you are entitled to demand acknowledgment of this subject. But as a Dragon Ball fan, I’m perfectly okay with how they are handling the powerscalling in the manga until now. The answers will come in due time.

[Nevaeh]

I've seen nothing that makes me think Vegeta can contend with people GoD level+. Belmod who is weaker than Jiren was able to hurt Beerus and all the other gods. And going off this new chapter, Vegeta just doesn't look to be on that level

Also it was Moro73 that was stated as the toughest/strongest/whatever. Prime Moro got no such distinction

[Miracles]

Moro73 would naturally be the strongest Goku has ever fought, since the formula is always last enemy > the rest. However, this doesn't mean Prime Moro couldn't/wasn't the strongest enemy ever before Moro73 showed up. Especially since, in the Broly arc, Goku was "so sure" of his own strength [This is even after fighting Jiren and not having UI] "until" the much stronger Broly showed up. Jiren was passed up, even by Goku in the Broly movie. Who only grew exponentially more powerful from there. So yes, Vegeta indeed; with his current Blue, will smoke Jiren too.

[GodVegetto91]

I've seen nothing that makes me think Vegeta can contend with people GoD level+. Belmod who is weaker than Jiren was able to hurt Beerus and all the other gods. And going off this new chapter, Vegeta just doesn't look to be on that level

Also it was Moro73 that was stated as the toughest/strongest/whatever. Prime Moro got no such distinction

Or maybe.. The obvious answer is true.. And this is just “bad writing” by Toyotaro, who clearly hadn’t planned that far ahead yet when he wrote the battle royale between the GoDs in the manga..

Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta could still be >>> Jiren > Belmod >>>> GoD Toppo.

Also, Prime Moro was stated by Piccolo to be:
”At a level you can’t reach with training alone!”

Jiren trained alone, and only trained!

(Ps. This was right after he received a full power punch from Spirit Control SSBE Vegeta to the gut.)

It didn’t even PHASE Prime Moro. It literally hurt him not..

So what makes you think Jiren would do any better against this brick of steel that is Prime Moro???

[GodVegetto91]

Moro73 would naturally be the strongest Goku has ever fought, since the formula is always last enemy > the rest. However, this doesn't mean Prime Moro couldn't/wasn't the strongest enemy ever before Moro73 showed up. Especially since, in the Broly arc, Goku was "so sure" of his own strength [This is even after fighting Jiren and not having UI] "until" the much stronger Broly showed up. Jiren was passed up, even by Goku in the Broly movie. Who only grew exponentially more powerful from there. So yes, Vegeta indeed; with his current Blue, will smoke Jiren too.

Wait... Are you.. Really suggesting that Br Movie SSJ Blue Goku is above Jiren???

[Hugo Boss]

That’s unlikely, since Goku doesn’t rank himself above God of Destruction level either, which Jiren already proved to be. His line is basically a confirmation that Broly and Jiren are on the same rank.

[Koitsukai]

I agree with Hugo.
Saiyans don't get overwhelmingly stronger just because, out of the blue, not even after sustaining serious injuries, well not anymore. They need to unlock new forms (ToP) or train their asses off like in the Moro arc. Nothing that would put Goku on par with Jiren happened during the Broly movie.

[Miracles]

Moro73 would naturally be the strongest Goku has ever fought, since the formula is always last enemy > the rest. However, this doesn't mean Prime Moro couldn't/wasn't the strongest enemy ever before Moro73 showed up. Especially since, in the Broly arc, Goku was "so sure" of his own strength [This is even after fighting Jiren and not having UI] "until" the much stronger Broly showed up. Jiren was passed up, even by Goku in the Broly movie. Who only grew exponentially more powerful from there. So yes, Vegeta indeed; with his current Blue, will smoke Jiren too.

Wait... Are you.. Really suggesting that Br Movie SSJ Blue Goku is above Jiren???

Yes. According to Goku, he even had his sights set on other universes. He was so sure of his strength after the TOP; without UI, until Broly humbled him. Broly is much stronger than Belmod and Jiren. Since he was hypothetically compared to the elite benchmark Beerus. Goku and Vegeta's special training has not changed, they are still growing under/in front of Whis/Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

I think there is a noticeable difference between being sure of his strength, which is not so surprising, since Goku is one of the select group of people that wield godly strength, and thinking he was the strongest combatant out there.

If that was the right interpretation to make, that his SSB form surpassed Jiren, we should assume Vegeta and Freeza did as well, as they didn’t perform worse than him against Broly. Even this approach would make Goku’s assessment weird, if there are at least two people ranked with him.

To add to that, Goku compared Broly to the first God of Destruction that came into his mind. Goku was already told Jiren had an edge in combat skill against another God of Destruction, so it would be kinda odd that Goku thinks he is stronger than Jiren and at the same time he views himself weaker than a God of Destruction. Why not using the same qualifier he used with Moro?

Edit: I just found a nice contribution from our beloved Herms about DBSuper powerscalling on Reddit. I hope you enjoy — Bonus link.

[GodVegetto91]

Moro73 would naturally be the strongest Goku has ever fought, since the formula is always last enemy > the rest. However, this doesn't mean Prime Moro couldn't/wasn't the strongest enemy ever before Moro73 showed up. Especially since, in the Broly arc, Goku was "so sure" of his own strength [This is even after fighting Jiren and not having UI] "until" the much stronger Broly showed up. Jiren was passed up, even by Goku in the Broly movie. Who only grew exponentially more powerful from there. So yes, Vegeta indeed; with his current Blue, will smoke Jiren too.

Wait... Are you.. Really suggesting that Br Movie SSJ Blue Goku is above Jiren???

Yes. According to Goku, he even had his sights set on other universes. He was so sure of his strength after the TOP; without UI, until Broly humbled him. Broly is much stronger than Belmod and Jiren. Since he was hypothetically compared to the elite benchmark Beerus. Goku and Vegeta's special training has not changed, they are still growing under/in front of Whis/Beerus.

I do like that theory of yours.. Unfortunately most people hate it and would call you crazy for it. At least I’m open minded.