GT and misogyny

[jjgp1112]

Art isn't made in a vacuum. The decision to exclude Videl is a decision Toriyama made. There's alao zero reason Kibito could not have pulled a Grand Elder and brought out Videl's potential. Easy fucking fix.

And how exactly would this unlocked potential make her any more useful than any other non-Saiyan besides Mr. Satan in the arc...which is to say, not useful at all? What purpose would this actually serve? If anything, more people would complain when such a thing accomplishes absolutely zilch.

That's where actually writing comes in.

I think we can expect the multi-million dollar publishing company to get over its hatred of women.

But what we got with Mr. Satan's buffoonery was fine enough and the best possible use of humans at that stage of the story . Participation trophy representation's not essential to a story.

[KBABZ]

I've always felt that, among all the other reasons we know regarding why Toriyama moved away from the Gohan stuff, I think the time pressure of writing a manga and his own weariness with Dragon Ball was a big factor. Spitballing ahead.

To me, I think the high school stuff was the first time in a long while where the core story just wasn't working for Toriyama. But he can't exactly go back and redo what he'd done before, he had to pivot around what he'd already written, and that meant that all of a sudden he had these characters like Videl and 18 (who remember, wasn't revealed to be Krillin's wife until this arc) standing around doing not a whole lot while the story focused on the characters he could quickly make work, namely Goten and Trunks and bringing Goku back with Vegeta.

I think the writer's own interest in what they're making is also important. While Toriyama always felt he'd end the story since like, Daimao or so, I think the end of the Cell games is really where he WANTED to, but had to keep going because Dragon Ball's still mega-popular. And I look at the Buu Arc, with all it's ideas and moments thrown at the wall like Super Saiyan 3, Fusion, Videl, the high school arc, the whiplash of drama and humour, the Great Saiyaman, Gohan's power-up, the confusing mess of Buu's forms dogpiling on top of one-another, the Tournament, Tien's return, the Gohan/Videl romance, Vegetto, and how they seem to all just pop up and then vanish in an instant... I see those as signs of Toriyama trying to keep himself entertained moreso than the audience.

And IMO that also explains why Dragon Ball ended just like -snap- that: it was only suggested in a single line in the second-to-last Chapter, and given Dragon Ball's penchant for time skips after storylines that introduce new characters, I doubt anyone in the audience saw it coming either. I feel that was Toriyama giving up the ghost and figuring he can't keep this going anymore.

---

Does that excuse the poorly-implemented female characters? No of course not, but it does explain why a man who already can't write female characters that well gives them the waste basket treatment and somehow can't come up with a good way to power up human fighting characters in a world where he can literally do anything if he wanted to. It'd be fascinating to see how Toriyama would write the Cell Arc follow-up if he were given a year off first.

[ABED]

Her playing off of her father is a better idea and more in keeping with the world Toriyama created. I just don't buy that she goes from Pee Wee's to playing in the Super Bowl in a few days.

[KBABZ]

Her playing off of her father is a better idea and more in keeping with the world Toriyama created. I just don't buy that she goes from Pee Wee's to playing in the Super Bowl in a few days.

Isn't that exactly what Goku does, multiple times?

[jjgp1112]

Her playing off of her father is a better idea and more in keeping with the world Toriyama created. I just don't buy that she goes from Pee Wee's to playing in the Super Bowl in a few days.

Isn't that exactly what Goku does, multiple times?

Yeah... GOKU. And other Saiyans. Not quite in the realm of Videl going from somewhere less than 21st TB Goku & Krillin to Saiyan saga Krillin in the span of a week. That wouldn't be encroachin on Mary Sue territory as much as it would be bulldozing.

[KBABZ]

Her playing off of her father is a better idea and more in keeping with the world Toriyama created. I just don't buy that she goes from Pee Wee's to playing in the Super Bowl in a few days.

Isn't that exactly what Goku does, multiple times?

Yeah... GOKU. And other Saiyans. Not quite in the realm of Videl going from somewhere less than 21st TB Goku & Krillin to Saiyan saga Krillin in the span of a week. That wouldn't be encroachin on Mary Sue territory as much as it would be bulldozing.

It'd only be a Mary-Sue if Videl has a Perfect Personality and everyone admired her for how amazing she is and wished they had an ounce of her talent and might also be in love with her. Dragon Ball has made weak characters catch up and be relevant (if briefly) for decades.

[jjgp1112]

Isn't that exactly what Goku does, multiple times?

Yeah... GOKU. And other Saiyans. Not quite in the realm of Videl going from somewhere less than 21st TB Goku & Krillin to Saiyan saga Krillin in the span of a week. That wouldn't be encroachin on Mary Sue territory as much as it would be bulldozing.

It'd only be a Mary-Sue if Videl has a Perfect Personality and everyone admired her for how amazing she is and wished they had an ounce of her talent and might also be in love with her. Dragon Ball has made weak characters catch up and be relevant (if briefly) for decades.

But how? HOW would Videl go from just a wee bit stronger than her weak buffoon dad to being able to compete with Yamcha, Tien, and Krillin in a way that wouldn't make just about every fan completely roll their eyes. Reveal she's actually an alien? What? The story and the span of time just doesn't allow any bullshit like that.

[goku the krump dancer]

The thing is, even if she got to be on par with Saiyan Arc Krillin for whatever reason, she’d still be less than desirable to have on the battle field during the Boo Arc. We don’t really know how strong Pui Pui and Yakon are in comparison to the Earthlings but even if they were still piss weak in comparison, no one under Piccolo can handle Dabura, so what use would she really have?

Placing too much “What if” stock in a character who wasn’t really meant to do much in the first place..

[MyVisionity]

That story was all about the Saiyans anyway. Piccolo and Kuririn are removed almost immediately and the rest of the team is nonexistent. Then everyone is shoved off to God's temple and the afterlife.

The Boo arc would probably have to have been written entirely different from the beginning if Videl were to be involved that much.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t know why we’re talking about power scaling as though that actually matters, especially at this point. If the writers want Videl to fight alongside the rest of the Dragon Team, nothing is stopping them. With that said, I don’t have any real desire to see that.

[ABED]

I don’t know why we’re talking about power scaling as though that actually matters, especially at this point. If the writers want Videl to fight alongside the rest of the Dragon Team, nothing is stopping them. With that said, I don’t have any real desire to see that.

Even though I generally don't care about power scaling, the idea that she goes from slightly above normal to able to fight beings able to destroy solar systems without breaking a sweat is too big a pill to swallow. The story had spent years growing the gulf between Goku and his friends, and we're expecting the daughter of a nobody to magically able to fight the biggest big bad of them all to that point? Instead of bending the plot past the breaking point, how about using her in some way that is befitting of her skills instead of just magically making her stronger. Mr. Satan helps in a way that feels appropriate for his character and develops his character. Apparently Videl's grand arc would be to go from student just learning the fundamentals to the big leagues? Even Goku's not that prodigious. Hell, it took Gohan a year to put it all together.

And what's the story of having her apparently becoming so strong so quickly? Why Videl? When Gohan or Goten and Trunks were being positioned as the heroes it's clear what their story was - the next generation inheriting the torch.

[BWri]

Since I've only loosely engaged with the topic before (apologies to the TC by the way), do you all think there would be backlash if Dragon Ball ever had a cast that consisted of female fighters as the main focus? Do you think that'd be something Toriyama-san would be interested in if the idea was ever presented to him? I noticed some of his previous projects have had female leads.

[JulieYBM]

That depends on the target audience. I'd love for a DB series or project focused on a female cast but I would still expect the person creating it to be a feminist.

[KBABZ]

Since I've only loosely engaged with the topic before (apologies to the TC by the way), do you all think there would be backlash if Dragon Ball ever had a cast that consisted of female fighters as the main focus? Do you think that'd be something Toriyama-san would be interested in if the idea was ever presented to him? I noticed some of his previous projects have had female leads.

Oh definitely, there's a huge portion of the fanbase who consider Dragon Ball Z to be very masculine and MANime and would flip THE FUCK out if the fighting cast were to be all women.

Misogyny aside that would be odd to do from an in-universe logistics standpoint simply because at this point Dragon Ball has so many male fighters as the focus. If I were to incorporate this idea, I'd give all the women fighters (Caulifla, Kale and Pan) their own arc of episodes that takes them on their own epic adventure, rather than attempting to write all the men out of the story all at once somehow.

[JulieYBM]

Well, what's 'writing the men all out' when a whole story arc or episode to a girl could last months if not years?

Besides, it's good for cis men to learn to emphasize with women and see them as more than just tits and ass. Society asks the many marginalized genders to consume cis male aimed media as the default and norm, why not flip that around and break the cycle of toxic masculinity.

[Matches Malone]

Do you all think there would be backlash if Dragon Ball ever had a cast that consisted of female fighters as the main focus ?

It would get the same response as a known female cast show being replaced by male characters.

There's a huge portion of the fanbase who consider Dragon Ball Z to be very masculine and MANime.

It's a story about super muscular men/aliens training and punching each other. I don't know what else you'd call it. Generally speaking, the type of stories and characters DB is made up of caters to males more than it does females, just as there are things that cater to females more so than males.

Society asks the many marginalized genders to consume cis male aimed media as the default and norm, why not flip that around and break the cycle of toxic masculinity.

You keep talking about toxic masculinity yet you're by far the most toxic dude on this site. I guess if others here pretended to be women they'd be allowed to be just as toxic you are.

[KBABZ]

You keep talking about toxic masculinity yet you're by far the most toxic dude on this site. I guess if others here pretended to be women they'd be allowed to be just as toxic you are.

WTF???

[Matches Malone]

You keep talking about toxic masculinity yet you're by far the most toxic dude on this site. I guess if others here pretended to be women they'd be allowed to be just as toxic you are.

WTF???

I call it like I see it.

[KBABZ]

You keep talking about toxic masculinity yet you're by far the most toxic dude on this site. I guess if others here pretended to be women they'd be allowed to be just as toxic you are.

WTF???

I call it like I see it.

So you're mis-gendering people now?

[Soppa Saia People]

eh, whatever.