Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

No, Goku asking Whis who is currently stronger [current] than he and Vegeta; with Whis claiming no one [present].

This wholly overstates your case. Whis makes no claim at all - he professes ignorance entirely ("Do you know..?" "I do not..."). He then points to Oracle Fish, who does know (of this future person who, if it is not Goku or Vegeta, may overshadow Goku and Vegeta's future achievements which are in view in the discussion from the outset).

It starts as a future discussion BECAUSE the title for the strongest can only be competed with the current strongest.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. The title will be based on what they achieve in the future that Goku frames (Vegeta having developed Hakai with Beerus, and Goku having developed Ultra Instinct further with Whis), not where they are right now.

[Miracles]

No, Goku asking Whis who is currently stronger [current] than he and Vegeta; with Whis claiming no one [present].

This wholly overstates your case. Whis makes no claim at all - he professes ignorance entirely ("Do you know..?" "I do not..."). He then points to Oracle Fish, who does know (of this future person who, if it is not Goku or Vegeta, may overshadow Goku and Vegeta's future achievements which are in view in the discussion from the outset).

Whis is right there claiming he knows no one by name stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

It starts as a future discussion BECAUSE the title for the strongest can only be competed with the current strongest.

That doesn't necessarily follow at all. The title will be based on what they achieve in the future that Goku frames (Vegeta having developed Hakai with Beerus, and Goku having developed Ultra Instinct further with Whis), not where they are right now.

Yes the title will be based on future. However this does not take away from the fact that Goku and Whis doesn't know of anyone stronger then them RIGHT NOW.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Whis is right there claiming he knows no one by name stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

He's professing ignorance (unsurprising, for a conversation about the future - We're gonna try to be the strongest in the Universe at the end of this training! - Maybe you won't be. - Do you know someone else ('stronger') to whom that will apply? - I dunno, but the Universe is massive, and Oracle Fish knows who it'll be). To say you don't know a thing is not a claim of anything. You seem to be treating it as though he is saying that there is no-one stronger - in fact, that's exactly what you just said ("Goku asking Whis who is currently stronger than he and Vegeta; with Whis claiming no one."), but that is not what Whis says.

But this seems to be going rather in circles. Think I'll duck out, so thanks for the chat.

[Miracles]

Whis is right there claiming he knows no one by name stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

He's professing ignorance (unsurprising, for a conversation about the future - We're gonna try to be the strongest in the Universe at the end of this training! - Maybe you won't be. - Do you know someone else ('stronger') to whom that will apply? - I dunno, but the Universe is massive, and Oracle Fish knows who it'll be). To say you don't know a thing is not a claim of anything. You seem to be treating it as though he is saying that there is no-one stronger - in fact, that's exactly what you just said ("Goku asking Whis who is currently stronger than he and Vegeta; with Whis claiming no one."), but that is not what Whis says.

But this seems to be going rather in circles. Think I'll duck out, so thanks for the chat.

Whis made a direct claim that he can name no one stronger than Goku and Vegeta presently. Hence why he contrasts with "BUT" you never know when the "NEXT" powerful bad guy will show up [FUTURE].

The facts aren't going to change. That's why we ended back to the same answer.

[dragonball0900]

Whis' statement is clear as day.

Goku and Vegeta were the strongest fighters in the universe by the time Goku was asking Whis. Whis didn't know anyone stronger than both Goku and Vegeta at present, which makes it clear that Broly is weaker than even SSBE Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

Wait hold on.

So Vegeta is already stronger than Broly but yet got cloned by Beerus?

Isn't Broly close to Beerus?

Another thing for Toei to fix I guess.

[Triggered Vegeta]

Broly was eating everything Gogeta Blue was lashing at him and coming back for more. Hard to believe Vegeta is now stronger than that Broly. Beerus humiliated Vegeta badly... I don't see Broly losing to Beerus that easily. Is UI Omen/SSBE Vegeta supposed to be > Broly? Broly took shots from a SSB fusion which I'm pretty sure is way stronger than Omen/ SSBE. Unless Goku is using UI(Silver) I don't see them being above Broly. That's just me.

[dragonball0900]

Broly was eating everything Gogeta Blue was lashing at him and coming back for more. Hard to believe Vegeta is now stronger than that Broly. Beerus humiliated Vegeta badly... I don't see Broly losing to Beerus that easily. Is UI Omen/SSBE Vegeta supposed to be > Broly? Broly took shots from a SSB fusion which I'm pretty sure is way stronger than Omen/ SSBE. Unless Goku is using UI(Silver) I don't see them being above Broly. That's just me.

Well, the UI Sign Goku and SSBE Vegeta from the ToP are not the same as the ones from currently.

Their base levels increased many times over their previous strength due to training with Merus and in Yardrat respectively. I guess that explains why they are so strong now.

It also explains how MSSB Goku clowned Saganbo, who was dominating a Gohan that was way stronger than his ToP self, a Gohan that back then was not that far below MSSB Goku.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Let's see:

1) Gohan was never SSB tier in the ToP. He was up scaled there just because Kefla was used as a means for that to happen. Kefla in the Manga being Kale with brains. Full power Kale knocking off a featless Anilaza and by no means challenging any Blue tier individual (Toppo and Vegeta caught off guard and still coming back up, Golden Freeza being certain that his full power would be more than enough).

2) Saganbo pushing back Gohan and Co. It doesn't matter. None of these individuals wields enough power for it to matter. Manga 17 capped around SS3+, Piccolo was never shown to be remotely close SSB (his cooperation with Gohan vs 7-3 was exactly what you expect Piccolo and Gohan to do). 18 is 18. Nothing to write home about. Saganbo flexed his strength, but that's all he had. Omen Goku obviously blitzed him. A focused, serious blue Goku obviously defeats Saganbo, the guy with 0 fighting experience, who could have been defeated by Trunks and Goten. People give Saganbo waaaay too much credit. We have seen it before. Technique can overwhelm the enemy. Look at Roshi pulling them smart moves on Jiren.

3)Before the Moro arc began, Broly's arrival and Freeza's return and subsequent involvement in the lives of the cast are banded together as a singular thing. I'm saying this for that one 'stronger than ever comment'. Freeza returned with the ToP. That's straightforward saying 'yo the last arc of Super + that one movie is where we left off'. This is further validated by the fact that against Elder Moro on Namek, Vegeta uses Blue Evo for the first time since the ToP, a power level he hasn't accessed ever since. No reason to deny he isn't the very same as in the end of the ToP and thus the Broly incident.

4) Goku and Vegeta followed different training regiments. They still got stronger, without really getting stronger (spirit control/UI control shenanigans). Prime Moro was their enemy. Prime Moro overpowers both. Vegeta only gets the upper hand with his unique technique and Goku by evading Moro. Moro is by all means superior to either after their training. And yet, there are no remarks on Moro's power... Not yet... Which means a simple thing. Prime Moro is still below or equal TO FP Jiren and Broly. That said, he is, via logic and scaling, BELOW ToP MUI and Gogeta Blue. These 2 are being seen as equals for the most part by many, including myself.

Conclusion: ToP MUI and Gogeta Blue are only surpassed by 7-Moro-3 and anyone above him. Even 7-Moro-3 is questionable more powerful, because despite being the 'toughest', he may had been defeated by the likes of ToP MUI and Gogeta Blue. Of course Goku right now is much stronger than those 2. But not enough for his current Omen to be above them. So I ask, what makes Vegeta in blue Evo with spirit control and pebble-level hakai, much more powerful and impressive than Broly and Jiren?

NOTHING

Because without fission, Prime Moro could tank Vegeta all day long. Goku as well. And Prime Moro is NOT above Broly or Jiren. Because only his next version is! And as said, it doesn't mean that Gogeta Blue and ToP MUI wouldn't be able to touch him. He would simply be tougher than Jiren (low diffed by ToP MUI) or Broly (low diffed by Gogeta Blue).

[ZombieVito]

Because without fission, Prime Moro could tank Vegeta all day long. Goku as well. And Prime Moro is NOT above Broly or Jiren. Because only his next version is! And as said, it doesn't mean that Gogeta Blue and ToP MUI wouldn't be able to touch him. He would simply be tougher than Jiren (low diffed by ToP MUI) or Broly (low diffed by Gogeta Blue).

Good point. Without Fission, Vegeta can't beat Prime Moro and Moro has 2 more powers ups after that.

Toyotaro simply screwed up with that Whis comment, what a surprise.

[Hugo Boss]

Goku was asking if there is someone stronger than him and Vegeta, so that person had to be at least as strong as Moro, who almost defeated them together, if it weren’t for Oob and everyone else that helped.

Goku himself limited the scope of the question as he was to his knowledge the strongest mortal and Vegeta is getting close, so the only ones who could come into mind were Moro or Granola. Moro is gone and Granola wasn’t the strongest yet by the time Whis answers the question, so that explains why he has no names to give to Goku. We don’t even know if Granola will end up the strongest the Oracle Fish foresaw anyway.

As usual, some people try to use this kind of exchange in a totally different direction of the conversation and this spreads misinformation, a single panel can mislead others that don’t read the entire thing.

Magnificent Ponta is on point. Just because Goku included Vegeta into his question, it doesn’t mean he is oblivious to the wide gap between them right now. He is including Vegeta out of respect, because they are both competing and improving rapidly. Vegeta will be at least stronger than Moro by the time they check their position, so it makes sense that he is part of Goku’s question.

[Miracles]

I see we have some who missed where Goku asks who is stronger than he and Vegeta in the universe. Whis can't name anyone stronger than both, even after seeing Broly, etc. Hence why Whis states "BUT" you never know which "NEXT" strong guy might show up. This is where Granolah comes in.

It's point blank right there. Also, the comments from Whis and Goku makes Prime Moro stronger than Broly and Jiren.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I see we have some who missed where Goku asks who is stronger than he and Vegeta in the universe. Whis can't name anyone stronger than both, even after seeing Broly, etc. Hence why Whis states "BUT" you never know which "NEXT" strong guy might show up. This is where Granolah comes in.

It's point blank right there. Also, the comments from Whis and Goku makes Prime Moro stronger than Broly and Jiren.

Really need some insight in this one..

As to why it's being implied, when only 7-Moro-3 is the obvious toughest opponent.

Goku could have easily made the same comment about Prime Moro, but he didn't.

[Miracles]

I see we have some who missed where Goku asks who is stronger than he and Vegeta in the universe. Whis can't name anyone stronger than both, even after seeing Broly, etc. Hence why Whis states "BUT" you never know which "NEXT" strong guy might show up. This is where Granolah comes in.

It's point blank right there. Also, the comments from Whis and Goku makes Prime Moro stronger than Broly and Jiren.

Really need some insight in this one..

As to why it's being implied, when only 7-Moro-3 is the obvious toughest opponent.

Goku could have easily made the same comment about Prime Moro, but he didn't.

That's because Moro73 came after Prime Moro. Naturally Moro73 would be the strongest opponent since it's an upgrade from Prime Moro. However, Vegeta was weaker than Prime Moro and yet Whis can't name anyone stronger than Goku and Vegeta now!

[Xeno Goku Black]

YOU have to prove that Broly isn’t stronger than Jiren.

I don't have to do squat. There is no proof either way for one being stronger than the other. Such a thing would need to exist in the first place in order for a fact to be stated. Since it does not there is no fact on the matter.

You can't and will not be able to ever prove that Broly is stronger than Jiren because there is no proof of it. You can assume all you like but that's what everyone does anyway.

You are clearly a biased Jiren fan. Otherwise you wouldn’t try to defend Jiren this hard.. The writing is on the wall here. I know what you’re doing.

This is just childish and plain cringey worthy to even read, don't do that again.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Huh? Goku Black trashes Hit power wise.

He would have a higher power level but Hit was superior to Goku Black overall. Goku had to use Kaio-ken X10 against Hit unlike Goku Black who wasn't that far ahead of him.

Hit also then killed Goku immediately unlike Goku Black.

Goku Black was the antagonist to follow Hit and both he and Zamasu were his inferior.

[Magnificent Ponta]

However one interprets the exchange in Chapter 70, I'm pretty relaxed about any 'implications' it may have for Broly, for the simple reason that...Vegeta is usually stronger than Broly.

Sure, Broly may have demonstrated a power ceiling that Goku thinks is "probably stronger than Beerus", but it's not like he could call on that power at will, or even control it properly. It's not usable for him under ordinary circumstances. Even if we guessed that Broly has since learned to control his SSj form to access that at will, there's still the matter of his repeated ki spikes/Ikari power, which only appeared under extreme pressure from vastly stronger opponents, and which he couldn't control anyway. Broly needs extenuating circumstances to be that strong.

So, with Broly unable to routinely access and use the lion's share of any power he's shown in the past, it makes sense to think of Vegeta as stronger as a matter of course. Broly could reach the "probably stronger than Beerus" strength that excites Goku again, of course, but probably only if (a) he's pushed by stronger opponents in a similar way to how he is in the movie, or (b) he learns how to harness all that power so he can use it at will. Until that happens, Vegeta would logically be regarded as stronger in any case.

[Koitsukai]

One small, overlooked detail regarding Jiren and Broly and the tradition of having the following enemy stronger than the previous one, is that during the Broly movie, Goku wasn't as strong as he was vs Jiren.
Goku had no access to Sign or UI, so the usual way of scaling foes (witnessing the new foe beating the hero's strongest form, with which he had defeated the previous foe, establishing an indisputable hierarchy) isn't at play here. Broly only trashed the SSB, and was slightly below SS Gogeta, and that was it. He wasn't a match for Gogeta Blue either.

So the usual comparison isn't even there, we can't compare UI and SSB fusion, although now we know UI Goku surpassed that power.

But even if SSB > UI, it means nothing because Broly, like UI and Jiren, would still be below SSB fusion, with no way to establish who's stronger between the weaker-than-Gogeta characters, because Broly couldn't even land one miserable hit on Gogeta.
So, who can say, beyond reasonable doubt that Jiren or UI Goku couldn't have landed at least one hit on Gogeta? with just one hit, they'd be above Broly.
Or the other way around, how can we know for sure Jiren or UI would definitely land a hit on Gogeta? that's why it's odd when somebody talks about facts regarding these two guys.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

All of the above is why I try to generalize things into neater power groupings.

Jiren, Broly, and Moro on the same playing field, and then Ultra Instinct and SSB Fusion on one above that playing field.

[Hugo Boss]

I see we have some who missed where Goku asks who is stronger than he and Vegeta in the universe. Whis can't name anyone stronger than both, even after seeing Broly, etc. Hence why Whis states "BUT" you never know which "NEXT" strong guy might show up. This is where Granolah comes in.

I fail to see how Goku is implying Vegeta is stronger than everyone else besides him, though, if that’s what you believe he is saying, because it doesn’t seem like he is making such claim. The person in question has to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta, not Goku or Vegeta.