Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Despite the fact that Goku didn't use UI or we don't even know if Goku Blue was stronger than UI in the Broly arc; it still does not hinder the next enemy's power being stronger than the last.

So you guys are trying to usurp factual authority by guesswork.

I see we have some who missed where Goku asks who is stronger than he and Vegeta in the universe. Whis can't name anyone stronger than both, even after seeing Broly, etc. Hence why Whis states "BUT" you never know which "NEXT" strong guy might show up. This is where Granolah comes in.

I fail to see how Goku is implying Vegeta is stronger than everyone else besides him, though, if that’s what you believe he is saying, because it doesn’t seem like he is making such claim. The person in question has to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta, not Goku or Vegeta.

Goku asked did Whis know of anyone stronger than he and Vegeta in the context of competing for the strongest in the verse. Presently, Whis couldn't name anyone stronger than he and Vegeta. BUT Whis says the NEXT guy that pops up could be stronger.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, no, Goku's blue was DEFINITELY not stronger than his ToP UI.

Please, come on...

[Miracles]

Yeah, no, Goku's blue was DEFINITELY not stronger than his ToP UI.

Please, come on...

We don't know that. But I'm not saying it is or isn't the case. But what is absolute 100% fact, that you guys are trying to dance around, is the next enemy is always stronger.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, no, Goku's blue was DEFINITELY not stronger than his ToP UI.

Please, come on...

We don't know that. But I'm not saying it is or isn't the case. But what is absolute 100% fact that you guys are trying to dance around is that the next enemy is always stronger.

Actually we do, we've seen how big the gap from blue to UI is, and we know how saiyans grow stronger: through hard work like training with an angel or honing your spirit with a particular species, plus zenkais are no more. Definitely not through sparring on Capsule Corp. Nothing like that happened to justify the huge gap you say that has been closed.

Nothing was ever said about it either. So, if you are going to imply UI was surpassed by SSB with no serious training, you'll need to prove it. Lack of informartion/statements favours the established setting which was UI >>>>>>>> SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

I see we have some who missed where Goku asks who is stronger than he and Vegeta in the universe. Whis can't name anyone stronger than both, even after seeing Broly, etc. Hence why Whis states "BUT" you never know which "NEXT" strong guy might show up. This is where Granolah comes in.

I fail to see how Goku is implying Vegeta is stronger than everyone else besides him, though, if that’s what you believe he is saying, because it doesn’t seem like he is making such claim. The person in question has to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta, not Goku or Vegeta.

Goku asked did Whis know of anyone stronger than he and Vegeta in the context of competing for the strongest in the verse. Presently, Whis couldn't name anyone stronger than he and Vegeta. BUT Whis says the NEXT guy that pops up could be stronger.

I’m not seeing any problem with this reasoning, but you didn’t address my point. Stronger than Goku and Vegeta means, by default, someone that can defeat them both, right? How that implies Vegeta is Goku’s current #1 or #2?

[Miracles]

Yeah, no, Goku's blue was DEFINITELY not stronger than his ToP UI.

Please, come on...

We don't know that. But I'm not saying it is or isn't the case. But what is absolute 100% fact that you guys are trying to dance around is that the next enemy is always stronger.

Actually we do, we've seen how big the gap from blue to UI is, and we know how saiyans grow stronger: through hard work like training with an angel or honing your spirit with a particular species, plus zenkais are no more. Definitely not through sparring on Capsule Corp. Nothing like that happened to justify the huge gap you say that has been closed.

Nothing was ever said about it either. So, if you are going to imply UI was surpassed by SSB with no serious training, you'll need to prove it. Lack of informartion/statements favours the established setting which was UI >>>>>>>> SSB.

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

I fail to see how Goku is implying Vegeta is stronger than everyone else besides him, though, if that’s what you believe he is saying, because it doesn’t seem like he is making such claim. The person in question has to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta, not Goku or Vegeta.

Goku asked did Whis know of anyone stronger than he and Vegeta in the context of competing for the strongest in the verse. Presently, Whis couldn't name anyone stronger than he and Vegeta. BUT Whis says the NEXT guy that pops up could be stronger.

I’m not seeing any problem with this reasoning, but you didn’t address my point. Stronger than Goku and Vegeta means, by default, someone that can defeat them both, right? How that implies Vegeta is Goku’s current #1 or #2?

Yes, the strongest will rise up over Goku and Vegeta. However, this doesn't change the fact that no one was stronger than them before that warrior rises up.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes, the strongest will rise up over Goku and Vegeta. However, this doesn't change the fact that no one was stronger than them before that warrior rises up.

Can you be more specific? Stronger than them as a duo? Stronger than them individually?

[Koitsukai]

We don't know that. But I'm not saying it is or isn't the case. But what is absolute 100% fact that you guys are trying to dance around is that the next enemy is always stronger.

Actually we do, we've seen how big the gap from blue to UI is, and we know how saiyans grow stronger: through hard work like training with an angel or honing your spirit with a particular species, plus zenkais are no more. Definitely not through sparring on Capsule Corp. Nothing like that happened to justify the huge gap you say that has been closed.

Nothing was ever said about it either. So, if you are going to imply UI was surpassed by SSB with no serious training, you'll need to prove it. Lack of informartion/statements favours the established setting which was UI >>>>>>>> SSB.

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

And you say this as if you know those gains were particularly incredible, when nothing was even implied, so...

To continue with this conversation, please, prove the established hierarchy was changed with SSB > UI, and that the gains post-ToP were abysmal, and the how, of course.

[Thani]

It would certainly be a ridiculously stupid jump in power, all things considered.

[Grand Marshal 1]

We don't know that. But I'm not saying it is or isn't the case. But what is absolute 100% fact that you guys are trying to dance around is that the next enemy is always stronger.

Actually we do, we've seen how big the gap from blue to UI is, and we know how saiyans grow stronger: through hard work like training with an angel or honing your spirit with a particular species, plus zenkais are no more. Definitely not through sparring on Capsule Corp. Nothing like that happened to justify the huge gap you say that has been closed.

Nothing was ever said about it either. So, if you are going to imply UI was surpassed by SSB with no serious training, you'll need to prove it. Lack of informartion/statements favours the established setting which was UI >>>>>>>> SSB.

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

We may not know of those gains, but there is no reason to not believe that there were gains at all, either. The Broly incident just pushed Broly to his limit and neither Goku or Vegeta, but Gogeta (pun intended). As in Blue Fusion isn't the same as UI. It's a set solution. It's there. No reason to grow stronger. And if Goku or Vegeta did grow mid-battle...well, it's never shown..In no spot do they start overpowering Broly after he overpowered them, without accessing a new form.

Also, I commented earlier on the Namek part of the Moro arc and how Vegeta has not used SSBE since the ToP and it's power is a surprise to Goku, indicating that it's that same power from before which impressed Jiren. And that's the reason they went to train to fight Moro again. (Plus the "strongest than ever comment being Broly arc + ToP).

On top of all this, the only one who is being theorized to have trained and even gained a new form is Freeza, who does not seem to have at all since he focused on rebuilding the empire and he most certainly didn't return with a new form. Implying that Goku and Vegeta haven't made any progress since the ToP and are "afraid" that Freeza may have.

[Miracles]

Yes, the strongest will rise up over Goku and Vegeta. However, this doesn't change the fact that no one was stronger than them before that warrior rises up.

Can you be more specific? Stronger than them as a duo? Stronger than them individually?

Individually. Since the title of strongest can only be gained by one.

Actually we do, we've seen how big the gap from blue to UI is, and we know how saiyans grow stronger: through hard work like training with an angel or honing your spirit with a particular species, plus zenkais are no more. Definitely not through sparring on Capsule Corp. Nothing like that happened to justify the huge gap you say that has been closed.

Nothing was ever said about it either. So, if you are going to imply UI was surpassed by SSB with no serious training, you'll need to prove it. Lack of informartion/statements favours the established setting which was UI >>>>>>>> SSB.

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

And you say this as if you know those gains were particularly incredible, when nothing was even implied, so...

To continue with this conversation, please, prove the established hierarchy was changed with SSB > UI, and that the gains post-ToP were abysmal, and the how, of course.

I've said, I'm not making any claims to deny or confirm the comparison between Broly Goku and TOP UI Goku. We simply don't know. However, we factually do know, that the next enemy is always stronger than the last a 100%. Goku's growth or lack thereof doesn't change that.

[Hugo Boss]

Yes, the strongest will rise up over Goku and Vegeta. However, this doesn't change the fact that no one was stronger than them before that warrior rises up.

Can you be more specific? Stronger than them as a duo? Stronger than them individually?

Individually. Since the title of strongest can only be gained by one.

I wish you had put a little more effort in your response, but it doesn’t seem like you want to continue this conversation, anyway. Guess you think this exchange implies Vegeta is stronger than Broly then? Yet, the context is about the title of strongest. Confusing.

I would agree that, at least, it implies that Goku fits that position, since he is much stronger than Vegeta and he defeated the former strongest Moro, despite having help. I only think it’s weird to exclude Goku from the scope and compare only Vegeta to other warriors, as if that comparison had any relevancy to what Goku was asking. He wouldn’t be interested in knowing someone weaker than Moro.

[Koitsukai]

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

And you say this as if you know those gains were particularly incredible, when nothing was even implied, so...

To continue with this conversation, please, prove the established hierarchy was changed with SSB > UI, and that the gains post-ToP were abysmal, and the how, of course.

I've said, I'm not making any claims to deny or confirm the comparison between Broly Goku and TOP UI Goku. We simply don't know. However, we factually do know, that the next enemy is always stronger than the last a 100%. Goku's growth or lack thereof doesn't change that.

Yes, we do. We know nothing changed, so we know things remain the same. There's nothing to justify doubting that, unless one would use some form of conjecture...

And the bolded part isn't true either, Hit wasn't stronger than Golden Freeza, so that 100% is out of place.

[Miracles]

And you say this as if you know those gains were particularly incredible, when nothing was even implied, so...

To continue with this conversation, please, prove the established hierarchy was changed with SSB > UI, and that the gains post-ToP were abysmal, and the how, of course.

I've said, I'm not making any claims to deny or confirm the comparison between Broly Goku and TOP UI Goku. We simply don't know. However, we factually do know, that the next enemy is always stronger than the last a 100%. Goku's growth or lack thereof doesn't change that.

Yes, we do. We know nothing changed, so we know things remain the same. There's nothing to justify doubting that, unless one would use some form of conjecture...

And the bolded part isn't true either, Hit wasn't stronger than Golden Freeza, so that 100% is out of place.

Hit tied a much stronger Blue Goku, who trained THREE YEARS in the ROS&T after RoF. Showing he is stronger than Golden Freeza. Which continues the next enemy being the strongest trend. We have no statement comparing the gains Goku made between arcs. So you are claiming authority on thin air. What you are saying is untrue from A to Z.

Can you be more specific? Stronger than them as a duo? Stronger than them individually?

Individually. Since the title of strongest can only be gained by one.

I wish you had put a little more effort in your response, but it doesn’t seem like you want to continue this conversation, anyway. Guess you think this exchange implies Vegeta is stronger than Broly then? Yet, the context is about the title of strongest. Confusing.

I would agree that, at least, it implies that Goku fits that position, since he is much stronger than Vegeta and he defeated the former strongest Moro, despite having help. I only think it’s weird to exclude Goku from the scope and compare only Vegeta to other warriors, as if that comparison had any relevancy to what Goku was asking. He wouldn’t be interested in knowing someone weaker than Moro.

There is no need for effort when the story gives us a straight answer. Goku thought that the title of strongest was only between him and Vegeta. That is speaking individually. Whis says he doesn't know if the title might be just between the two of them. THEN Goku asks Whis if he knows anyone stronger [currently] than he and Vegeta. Whis confirms and says NO. HOWEVER, Whis says the NEXT bad guy could show up and be better than BOTH individually. No one in the universe is stronger than Goku and Vegeta before the strongsest warrior rises up

Actually we do, we've seen how big the gap from blue to UI is, and we know how saiyans grow stronger: through hard work like training with an angel or honing your spirit with a particular species, plus zenkais are no more. Definitely not through sparring on Capsule Corp. Nothing like that happened to justify the huge gap you say that has been closed.

Nothing was ever said about it either. So, if you are going to imply UI was surpassed by SSB with no serious training, you'll need to prove it. Lack of informartion/statements favours the established setting which was UI >>>>>>>> SSB.

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

We may not know of those gains, but there is no reason to not believe that there were gains at all, either. The Broly incident just pushed Broly to his limit and neither Goku or Vegeta, but Gogeta (pun intended). As in Blue Fusion isn't the same as UI. It's a set solution. It's there. No reason to grow stronger. And if Goku or Vegeta did grow mid-battle...well, it's never shown..In no spot do they start overpowering Broly after he overpowered them, without accessing a new form.

Also, I commented earlier on the Namek part of the Moro arc and how Vegeta has not used SSBE since the ToP and it's power is a surprise to Goku, indicating that it's that same power from before which impressed Jiren. And that's the reason they went to train to fight Moro again. (Plus the "strongest than ever comment being Broly arc + ToP).

On top of all this, the only one who is being theorized to have trained and even gained a new form is Freeza, who does not seem to have at all since he focused on rebuilding the empire and he most certainly didn't return with a new form. Implying that Goku and Vegeta haven't made any progress since the ToP and are "afraid" that Freeza may have.

I understand your points but they are just speculation. It doesn't prove that Goku and Vegeta haven't or have made big gains. It's simply an unknown. Goku did indeed say in the Broly arc that he was so sure of his own strength until Broly showed up. This was even after facing Jiren. Also in the Moro arc Goku and Vegeta entered that arc stronger than they ever been. So Vegeta's power up from the TOP wouldn't mean much. Still none of this is concrete proof of anything.

[Thani]

And you say this as if you know those gains were particularly incredible, when nothing was even implied, so...

To continue with this conversation, please, prove the established hierarchy was changed with SSB > UI, and that the gains post-ToP were abysmal, and the how, of course.

I've said, I'm not making any claims to deny or confirm the comparison between Broly Goku and TOP UI Goku. We simply don't know. However, we factually do know, that the next enemy is always stronger than the last a 100%. Goku's growth or lack thereof doesn't change that.

Yes, we do. We know nothing changed, so we know things remain the same. There's nothing to justify doubting that, unless one would use some form of conjecture...

And the bolded part isn't true either, Hit wasn't stronger than Golden Freeza, so that 100% is out of place.

And it's also dumb. It was clear that Toriyama was playing with this idea in the first three arcs - Freeza, Hit and Black were generally in the same realm of power, with slight variations of what made them dangerous. Freeza was more focused on power, Black on his double team with Zamasu and owning of Goku's techniques and Hit by virtue of his time skip.

Really, Merged Zamasu/Jiren/Broly/Moro also fits the dynamic of people vaguely in the same realm of power, each of them having different gimmicks that made them dangerous as hell.

Why return to the same outdated rule when you had something good going on?

Edit: Also Hit was absolutely not tied with SSB Goku in the manga, instead he was tied with regular SS Goku. Even in the anime, Goku was overwhelming him in just Blue initially. Hit would definitely beat Golden Freeza in that arc, but it wasn't because of being stronger, it was because of his Time Skip.

[Grand Marshal 1]

You say all this as if you know the gains made from the TOP to the Broly arc. You are still using conjecture.

We may not know of those gains, but there is no reason to not believe that there were gains at all, either. The Broly incident just pushed Broly to his limit and neither Goku or Vegeta, but Gogeta (pun intended). As in Blue Fusion isn't the same as UI. It's a set solution. It's there. No reason to grow stronger. And if Goku or Vegeta did grow mid-battle...well, it's never shown..In no spot do they start overpowering Broly after he overpowered them, without accessing a new form.

Also, I commented earlier on the Namek part of the Moro arc and how Vegeta has not used SSBE since the ToP and it's power is a surprise to Goku, indicating that it's that same power from before which impressed Jiren. And that's the reason they went to train to fight Moro again. (Plus the "strongest than ever comment being Broly arc + ToP).

On top of all this, the only one who is being theorized to have trained and even gained a new form is Freeza, who does not seem to have at all since he focused on rebuilding the empire and he most certainly didn't return with a new form. Implying that Goku and Vegeta haven't made any progress since the ToP and are "afraid" that Freeza may have.

I understand your points but they are just speculation. It doesn't prove that Goku and Vegeta haven't or have made big gains. It's simply an unknown. Goku did indeed say in the Broly arc that he was so sure of his own strength until Broly showed up. This was even after facing Jiren. Also in the Moro arc Goku and Vegeta entered that arc stronger than they ever been. So Vegeta's power up from the TOP wouldn't mean much. Still none of this is concrete proof of anything.

Well, in any case, I prefer tiers too just like PerhapsTheOtherOne said. Speculating ON Vegeta rn is a natural follow-up to the Whis comment and the whole sign thing. I suppose we may get more insight as to where Vegeta stands once the battle with Granolah begins. In which point, I expect Granolah to obliterate Vegeta, unless if Vegeta outskills him.

Anyway, I feel like the general power scale since the ToP hasn't change that much. We are on the GoD + tier ever since.

[Koitsukai]

I've said, I'm not making any claims to deny or confirm the comparison between Broly Goku and TOP UI Goku. We simply don't know. However, we factually do know, that the next enemy is always stronger than the last a 100%. Goku's growth or lack thereof doesn't change that.

Yes, we do. We know nothing changed, so we know things remain the same. There's nothing to justify doubting that, unless one would use some form of conjecture...

And the bolded part isn't true either, Hit wasn't stronger than Golden Freeza, so that 100% is out of place.

And it's also dumb. It was clear that Toriyama was playing with this idea in the first three arcs - Freeza, Hit and Black were generally in the same realm of power, with slight variations of what made them dangerous. Freeza was more focused on power, Black on his double team with Zamasu and owning of Goku's techniques and Hit by virtue of his time skip.

Really, Merged Zamasu/Jiren/Broly/Moro also fits the dynamic of people vaguely in the same realm of power, each of them having different gimmicks that made them dangerous as hell.

Why return to the same outdated rule when you had something good going on?

Edit: Also Hit was absolutely not tied with SSB Goku in the manga, instead he was tied with regular SS Goku. Even in the anime, Goku was overwhelming him in just Blue initially. Hit would definitely beat Golden Freeza in that arc, but it wasn't because of being stronger, it was because of his Time Skip.

Yeah this is all true. I can definitely stand by the idea that every enemy is a bigger threat than the last due to particular reasons.
Freeza with his power, Hit with his time skip, Black with his ally, Zamasu with his immortality, Jiren with his power and skills, Broly with his uncontrollable power, and Moro with his magic that elevated his power too. And the current one, apparently is a threat because he cheated his way to the top.

[Hugo Boss]

There is no need for effort when the story gives us a straight answer. Goku thought that the title of strongest was only between him and Vegeta. That is speaking individually. Whis says he doesn't know if the title might be just between the two of them. THEN Goku asks Whis if he knows anyone stronger [currently] than he and Vegeta. Whis confirms and says NO. HOWEVER, Whis says the NEXT bad guy could show up and be better than BOTH individually. No one in the universe is stronger than Goku and Vegeta before the strongsest warrior rises up.

I think you are still avoiding the flaw on your argument, which is not addressing the reason of Goku’s question. If he is concerned with the present situation, he wants to know if there is someone stronger than him. It doesn’t make sense to ask if there is someone stronger than Vegeta as well, since he is already stronger than Vegeta himself. But if he is concerned with the future, including Vegeta in the question makes sense, because Vegeta will be stronger than Moro.

[Miracles]

We may not know of those gains, but there is no reason to not believe that there were gains at all, either. The Broly incident just pushed Broly to his limit and neither Goku or Vegeta, but Gogeta (pun intended). As in Blue Fusion isn't the same as UI. It's a set solution. It's there. No reason to grow stronger. And if Goku or Vegeta did grow mid-battle...well, it's never shown..In no spot do they start overpowering Broly after he overpowered them, without accessing a new form.

Also, I commented earlier on the Namek part of the Moro arc and how Vegeta has not used SSBE since the ToP and it's power is a surprise to Goku, indicating that it's that same power from before which impressed Jiren. And that's the reason they went to train to fight Moro again. (Plus the "strongest than ever comment being Broly arc + ToP).

On top of all this, the only one who is being theorized to have trained and even gained a new form is Freeza, who does not seem to have at all since he focused on rebuilding the empire and he most certainly didn't return with a new form. Implying that Goku and Vegeta haven't made any progress since the ToP and are "afraid" that Freeza may have.

I understand your points but they are just speculation. It doesn't prove that Goku and Vegeta haven't or have made big gains. It's simply an unknown. Goku did indeed say in the Broly arc that he was so sure of his own strength until Broly showed up. This was even after facing Jiren. Also in the Moro arc Goku and Vegeta entered that arc stronger than they ever been. So Vegeta's power up from the TOP wouldn't mean much. Still none of this is concrete proof of anything.

Well, in any case, I prefer tiers too just like PerhapsTheOtherOne said. Speculating ON Vegeta rn is a natural follow-up to the Whis comment and the whole sign thing. I suppose we may get more insight as to where Vegeta stands once the battle with Granolah begins. In which point, I expect Granolah to obliterate Vegeta, unless if Vegeta outskills him.

Anyway, I feel like the general power scale since the ToP hasn't change that much. We are on the GoD + tier ever since.

You can speculate that we are in the god + tier. However, it doesn't change the fact that Whis said Vegeta is stronger than Broly. This also includes Prime Moro stronger than past enemies too, since Vegeta was even weaker than him.

There is no need for effort when the story gives us a straight answer. Goku thought that the title of strongest was only between him and Vegeta. That is speaking individually. Whis says he doesn't know if the title might be just between the two of them. THEN Goku asks Whis if he knows anyone stronger [currently] than he and Vegeta. Whis confirms and says NO. HOWEVER, Whis says the NEXT bad guy could show up and be better than BOTH individually. No one in the universe is stronger than Goku and Vegeta before the strongsest warrior rises up.

I think you are still avoiding the flaw on your argument, which is not addressing the reason of Goku’s question. If he is concerned with the present situation, he wants to know if there is someone stronger than him. It doesn’t make sense to ask if there is someone stronger than Vegeta as well, since he is already stronger than Vegeta himself. But if he is concerned with the future, including Vegeta in the question makes sense, because Vegeta will be stronger than Moro.

It does make sense to include Vegeta when Goku assumes it's only Vegeta he has to compete with for the title of strongest. THEN Whis states that it could be someone else besides them as the best. Then Goku asks Whis do you know anyone stronger than US out there? Whis can't name anyone currently stronger than BOTH right now. That is when the convo became present based. Now it went back to future talk when Whis says you never know what strong guy might show up "NEXT." Do you get it now?

[Miracles]

BTW When I said Hit tied Goku, that means neither of them defeated the other physically. Especially when Hit was holding back, not able to use killing techniques. Hit faced a Goku who trained for three years and that Goku is on a whole different level from RoF. There are no such things in Dragonball with "threat levels" based on techniques being higher than the next. It all comes down to power level. That's why Hit actually trained his battle power for the TOP. Since his techniques only fully work on opponents who are near or weaker than him. That's why Moro couldn't absorb UI omen Goku's power since he was too fast. So Moro said he had to result into physically beating Goku THEN taking his power.

Again, Toriyama's factual narrative of next enemy being stronger than the last is always based on power level. It can't be spun any other way.