Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheSaiyanGod]

That said, it could have been better explained. For sure. The writers (and Toyotaro too, tbh) fumbled in this regard, despite not being a new phenomenon in the series. But I guess it's a staple for the series to never actually explain properly what the hell the characters are doing.

But the point is, in the manga a new type of Zenkai is not invented, Black gets stronger in the old fashion while getting used to Goku's body (and despite that he still gets power ups far above what Goku got at that point). He just uses the same ability that any other Saiyan can use

To be fair, Goku actually proves Vegeta’s words in both the anime and manga when he overpowers Merged Zamas and when he completed Super Saiyan Blue in the manga. I don’t think it’s necessarily related to Goku’s full power, but about Goku accomplishing impossible things when he is cornered. He even performed kaioken after experiencing ki-disorder because of it.

Even disregarding Goku's feat of overpowering Zamasu with Kamehameha, the Kaioken in the end is something Black never showed he was able to do despite having mastered Goku's power, which would also put Goku a step above him anyway (just like in the manga in which Goku mastered the SSB)

[Miracles]

Even disregarding Goku's feat of overpowering Zamasu with Kamehameha, the Kaioken in the end is something Black never showed he was able to do despite having mastered Goku's power, which would also put Goku a step above him anyway (just like in the manga in which Goku mastered the SSB)

[SupremeKai25]

Black never had Kaioken for purely plot purposes really. He inherited all of Goku's signature moves and memories EXCEPT Kaioken, even though thematically it would have made so much sense for Black to use Kaioken, since he was North Kai. It's not a coincidence.

Fused Zamasu with Kaioken stacked on top of Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Immortality and perfect regeneration capabilities? The fight would have ended in 1 minute.

[ZombieVito]

Maybe he simply can't use it because of his spirit. Sure he has mastered Goku's body but his spirit is another story so maybe that's why he couldn't mastered Kaioken.

Maybe he didn't want to risk getting damaged like Goku did after the U6 tournament. People forget Goku can't do Kaioken freely at this time in the story. It's a huge risk doing it.

[Hugo Boss]

That actually is the most ironic aspect of kaioken. Zamas could never master a move that requires someone to put life on the line. It takes Goku’s courage to pull that off. Since he wished for someone else’s body and immortality, his mentality is probably not strong enough to attain kaioken.

[Koitsukai]

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too, either you give Black an extremely convenient never-seen-before-or-after zenkai ability with nothing to do with being a saiyan or a kaioshin, or you give him kaioken.
I would've preferred kaioken, specially when it was Goku's ace up his sleeve the previous arc, seeing it as the new obstacle would've been interesting.

About the previous arc, I was always "bothered" that Hit could withstand blows 10x stronger than he was, when he only improved his technique. It should've been a battle of speeds with Goku trying to land one finishing blow, instead of the Rocky vs Drago trading of blows it was. It was really cool, so I don't care lol.

[ZombieVito]

Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too, either you give Black an extremely convenient never-seen-before-or-after zenkai ability with nothing to do with being a saiyan or a kaioshin, or you give him kaioken.
I would've preferred kaioken, specially when it was Goku's ace up his sleeve the previous arc, seeing it as the new obstacle would've been interesting.

About the previous arc, I was always "bothered" that Hit could withstand blows 10x stronger than he was, when he only improved his technique. It should've been a battle of speeds with Goku trying to land one finishing blow, instead of the Rocky vs Drago trading of blows it was. It was really cool, so I don't care lol.

Well it's complex.

Goku was losing power fast and he didn't connect many punches to Hit to begin with. Just look at episode 40. Goku did the same damage to Hit with one punch than Hit did to him with dozens of unguarded punches.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Also, Goku had to stay within tournament rules and never land any killing blows, so he had to hold back in that regard in addition to wanting a more engaging fight.

Goku's not the type to instantly end fights in just a few blows, especially one where his opponent is really interesting.

[Nevaeh]

So about Granola. He's supposedly the strongest apart from the gods, right?

Does this mean that despite being stronger than current UI, he's still weaker than all the other gods of destructions? Could Belmod actually be stronger than Jiren now? Guys like Jiren and Broly were hyped up to be on that level or beyond but retcons happen all the time in DB

[Hugo Boss]

Recently, for some reason, a lot of powerlevel threads were created separately from this one and they are still running.

Your question is being discussed in this one.

[GodVegetto91]

So about Granola. He's supposedly the strongest apart from the gods, right?

Does this mean that despite being stronger than current UI, he's still weaker than all the other gods of destructions? Could Belmod actually be stronger than Jiren now? Guys like Jiren and Broly were hyped up to be on that level or beyond but retcons happen all the time in DB

We are already discussing this in the thread I created here. But you’re free to do whatever you like. I don’t mind. I just thought you might be interested in this topic I created a while back.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46111

[GodVegetto91]

Vegeta is ALREADY a step above Goku!

Vegeta already has GoD powers in Base.. As he will clearly be demonstrating the real/full Hakai ability/technique on bigger rocks in this upcoming chapter.. In BASE Form!

Goku has YET to learn UI in his Base state as recently revealed by Whis...

Therefore, Vegeta is one step ahead of Goku right now! And is doing something the right way.. (And BEFORE Goku does! First...!) He’s doing it the correct way by starting small.. And learning it in BASE. Fully integrating it!

Kakkarot needs a cheap transformation for this!

[Hugo Boss]

When Goku was training to attain Ultra Instinct he did so in his base form, so for Vegeta it should work the same. You can’t expect he trains in a form he didn’t attain yet.

[Thani]

Vegeta is ALREADY a step above Goku!

Vegeta already has GoD powers in Base.. As he will clearly be demonstrating the real/full Hakai ability/technique on bigger rocks in this upcoming chapter.. In BASE Form!

Goku has YET to learn UI in his Base state as recently revealed by Whis...

Therefore, Vegeta is one step ahead of Goku right now! And is doing something the right way.. (And BEFORE Goku does! First...!) He’s doing it the correct way by starting small.. And learning it in BASE. Fully integrating it!

Kakkarot needs a cheap transformation for this!

Don't worry, if not by the chapter's end, then surely the next one will have Goku leaving Vegeta in the dust. Again.

[Hugo Boss]

While we don’t have any noticeable event in the manga, I have found some new sets of the Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafers Z stickers. I have noticed the art quality has quite improved, specially in the most recent one.

Fukutsu no Chou Toshi

Zetsugo no Climax

Herms also found a guide with all the arts included.

[Thani]

While we don’t have any noticeable event in the manga, I have found some new sets of the Dragon Ball Super Warrior Seal Wafers Z stickers. I have noticed the art quality has quite improved, specially in the most recent one.

Fukutsu no Chou Toshi

Zetsugo no Climax

Herms also found a guide with all the arts included.

Look at that, FT Vegito at 9300 with BR Gogeta at 9600, and Jiren at 9500. Those stickers are really way off when it comes to power, but I didn't dislike that hierarchy.

[Krillin1994]

Black never had Kaioken for purely plot purposes really. He inherited all of Goku's signature moves and memories EXCEPT Kaioken, even though thematically it would have made so much sense for Black to use Kaioken, since he was North Kai. It's not a coincidence.

Fused Zamasu with Kaioken stacked on top of Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Immortality and perfect regeneration capabilities? The fight would have ended in 1 minute.

I mean I hardly think that's the kaioken would've been thematic had Zamasu used it because he was a north kai of U10. It doesn't seem like it was a common technique amongst the kais, very much a King Kai creation which he had not even mastered.

That being said whilst Goku Black would be aware of the technique I very much doubt he would've been able to pull it off. Goku when trying it out in the U6 arc stated how it had a great chance of backfiring on him, so very risky to do. even after training for 3 years to stack with blue. I don't think Zamasu is as much of brilliant fighter as Goku is (Vegeta pretty much summed it up when giving him the beatdown) and I don't think he would've necessarily pulled it off. Besides the Kamehameha and IT he doesn't really use Goku techniques because awareness of them doesn't equal competency. I also think the vanity of him wouldn't risk harming his body from unsuccessfully using it.

Also we don't know for sure it was IT that was being used - could just be kai kai but with Goku Knowledge just using his fingers to mimic and mock Goku. Kamehameha as the main technique borrowed is quite a simple technique really.

Now I guess as fused he would've had the immortality. But his body was already pretty unstable in that fusion. The strain would've melted him down to a far greater degree, and I'm still not necessarily sure he would be able to pull it off.

[Hugo Boss]

Look at that, FT Vegito at 9300 with BR Gogeta at 9600, and Jiren at 9500. Those stickers are really way off when it comes to power, but I didn't dislike that hierarchy.

If you do some extensive search, you will find SSB Vegetto, SSB Gogeta and SS4 Gogeta paired at 9,800 in a set from 2020. This is the highest number an individual character got until this day, with Gogeta and Broly together breaking the grid with over 9,999 (probably due to the size limit).

Incidentally, there is a set in which Goku (Ultra Instinct) and Jiren (Super Full Power) are paired at 9,700, and to Broly until this last set was always assigned 9,600. Now, he is at 9,700 as well. Despite that, they are always going back and forth when updating the stickers, so when you compare them among themselves, sometimes you will see the numbers of the same character getting lower.

I don’t know, I just think the initiative of gathering that much variety of characters from so different Dragon Ball stories is noteworthy. And the way it makes homages to cover arts from original manga.

[SupremeKai25]

Black never had Kaioken for purely plot purposes really. He inherited all of Goku's signature moves and memories EXCEPT Kaioken, even though thematically it would have made so much sense for Black to use Kaioken, since he was North Kai. It's not a coincidence.

Fused Zamasu with Kaioken stacked on top of Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Immortality and perfect regeneration capabilities? The fight would have ended in 1 minute.

I mean I hardly think that's the kaioken would've been thematic had Zamasu used it because he was a north kai of U10. It doesn't seem like it was a common technique amongst the kais, very much a King Kai creation which he had not even mastered.

You don't think that Zamasu (former North Kai) using a technique invented by a North Kai would be thematic?

I don't think Zamasu is as much of brilliant fighter as Goku is (Vegeta pretty much summed it up when giving him the beatdown) and I don't think he would've necessarily pulled it off.

Zamasu was praised by Whis himself as a fighting genius and prodigy, prodigies in Dragon Ball have shown miraculous feats, like Frieza and Broly managing to go from Fodder tier to God tier in little time. Plus Zamasu was able to use all of Goku's signature moves anyway. Geniuses can easily pick up a new technique and master it in little time. And that's why we call them "geniuses".

I also think the vanity of him wouldn't risk harming his body from unsuccessfully using it.

He literally shows enjoyment at getting hit and damaged, as he knows the pain will make him stronger Black is a masochist and so is Fused Zamasu (he mutilated half of himself to become stronger).

Also we don't know for sure it was IT that was being used - could just be kai kai but with Goku Knowledge just using his fingers to mimic and mock Goku. Kamehameha as the main technique borrowed is quite a simple technique really.

He still weaves the signs when Goku isn't even around to be mocked?

[Krillin1994]

Black never had Kaioken for purely plot purposes really. He inherited all of Goku's signature moves and memories EXCEPT Kaioken, even though thematically it would have made so much sense for Black to use Kaioken, since he was North Kai. It's not a coincidence.

Fused Zamasu with Kaioken stacked on top of Super Saiyan Rosé on top of Immortality and perfect regeneration capabilities? The fight would have ended in 1 minute.

I mean I hardly think that's the kaioken would've been thematic had Zamasu used it because he was a north kai of U10. It doesn't seem like it was a common technique amongst the kais, very much a King Kai creation which he had not even mastered.

You don't think that Zamasu (former North Kai) using a technique invented by a North Kai would be thematic?

I don't think Zamasu is as much of brilliant fighter as Goku is (Vegeta pretty much summed it up when giving him the beatdown) and I don't think he would've necessarily pulled it off.

Zamasu was praised by Whis himself as a fighting genius and prodigy, prodigies in Dragon Ball have shown miraculous feats, like Frieza and Broly managing to go from Fodder tier to God tier in little time. Plus Zamasu was able to use all of Goku's signature moves anyway. Geniuses can easily pick up a new technique and master it in little time. And that's why we call them "geniuses".

I also think the vanity of him wouldn't risk harming his body from unsuccessfully using it.

He literally shows enjoyment at getting hit and damaged, as he knows the pain will make him stronger Black is a masochist and so is Fused Zamasu (he mutilated half of himself to become stronger).

Also we don't know for sure it was IT that was being used - could just be kai kai but with Goku Knowledge just using his fingers to mimic and mock Goku. Kamehameha as the main technique borrowed is quite a simple technique really.

He still weaves the signs when Goku isn't even around to be mocked?

I don’t think by virtue of them both being north Kais that it would be that thematic. Was Trunks using Vegeta’s Gallic gun seen to be that thematic that he had ascended to embrace his families royal lineage? (Sure it sounds plausibly thematic but I’m just plucking that out of nowhere, realistically it was just done to appear cool - Trunks using Gohans Masenko is far more thematic)

The idea behind the kaioken was something that was never perfected by its creator and took someone’s hard work and effort to slowly master and improve over time. The theme of Zamasu wasn’t really hard work and effort when he stole Goku’s body. Then the manga has the Zenkai abuse aspect which isn’t very Goku like so I don’t think it would’ve been thematically fitting at all.


There’s a difference from his sadism of getting to experience blows from the real Goku when in his stolen body, vs uneccesarily risking his goal by trying a technique he has no experience with.

The fused Zamasu body abuse was once he got pushed back by Goku’s kamehameha and kaioken which is the classic dragonball trope of composed villain losing their calm veneer when pushed. (King Piccolo, Frieza, Cell)

His prodigy nature is seen to be prodigy amongst Kais his main point of reference being to Shin from U7 at that point. You say all of Goku’s techniques but I can’t really recall his techniques used besides the ones I mentioned. And then again the IT I only recall used a couple of times. But I think he would probably find that easy to use/pick up from the Kais having their teleportation ability.