is piccolo god level in the manga?

[dragonball0900]

Also, I really have to say this.

I'm pretty sure Android 18 got a huge power boost in this saga as well. She was clearly portrayed as been closer to Android 17's level. They fought as a team, they both literally scratched Moro, and they both managed to impress him. If 17 was still that much far ahead from 18 like in the ToP, the feats shown, plus Moro's statement, wouldn't make any sense.

It's no coincidence that it was also stated that Krillin trained during the 2 months. Ever since 18 and Krillin married, Krillin never took training seriously. This time, it was different. Krillin decided to train again. I'm pretty sure 18 helped training with Krillin throughout the 2 months now that he was determined to get stronger. And with that, it also boosted 18's level. 18's potential should logically be around the same as 17's after all.

Based on all these evidencies, the order from strongest to weakest should be: Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, 17 and 18 (with her no longer be so far behind 17).

[Lionel]

To be fair, Piccolo was standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Gohan, taking the hits symmetrically in stride and keeping pace with his teammate. I don't mind Gohan being stronger but the margin shouldn't be that large. If anything, my first impression is that it's comparable to the gap between the cyborg siblings during the Cell arc.

What I would like to know is why Krillin didn't make any substantial gains if he worked with his wife to improve according to dragonball0900. So he's a human. Hard limitations have been getting constantly circumvented for decades now. I would have liked to have seen the little guy manage to surpass the base Saiyans or at least regain some momentum in competing with them. We know #18 was genetically altered by Gero and should possess inherent potential similar to his brother -- training with her should produce a wellspring of power growth similar to Gohan. Sadly, it's heavily implied that he and the other humans can't even compete with the kids as Trunks was described as being able to handle Saganbo without issue, a fighter whom everyone else under Moro deferred to in part because of his strength, including the minion that had three of the humans on the ropes. Could we at least have Krillin surpass base Goten and Trunks?

[theherodjl]

Why not? DBS has already made the original God level that Goku achieved in BOG look inconsequential. If any villain is not on that level then there isn't really much conflict unless its against the small fry like Krillin, Tenshinhan, and Yamcha. Piccolo has managed to remain in battle with guys that are very likely above Boohan so Piccolo definitely is indeed doing his best to keep up.

[ZombieVito]

What I would like to know is why Krillin didn't make any substantial gains if he worked with his wife to improve according to dragonball0900. So he's a human. Hard limitations have been getting constantly circumvented for decades now. I would have liked to have seen the little guy manage to surpass the base Saiyans or at least regain some momentum in competing with them. We know #18 was genetically altered by Gero and should possess inherent potential similar to his brother -- training with her should produce a wellspring of power growth similar to Gohan. Sadly, it's heavily implied that he and the other humans can't even compete with the kids as Trunks was described as being able to handle Saganbo without issue, a fighter whom everyone else under Moro deferred to in part because of his strength, including the minion that had three of the humans on the ropes. Could we at least have Krillin surpass base Goten and Trunks?

Who says he didn't? Kuririn was terribly pathetic in the manga, even Goku went as far as saying he wanted him on the ToP only because he was small and could go unnoticed by the other fighters. A far cry from his anime counterpart.

What if the gap between him and that Panda wasn't very big and he closed it in those 2 months with a big power up?

I'm starting to want Toei to adapt this arc. The amount of stuff they can improve on is astronomical. I really want to see an episode with them training in preparation for Moro's attack.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Not being explicitly said by the narrative, it is hard to believe that. It is no different from people believing that Gohan was MSSB level in the manga for defeating Kefla, although it was clearly stated by Krillin that he was weaker than Goku

the difference is that krillin is krillin ... he does not feel the god ki so vados and champa say the opposite which if they can feel it and they saw the fight of goku and toppo

Except that Whis and Beerus were next to Krillin and at no time did they deny what he said. And what Vados said about Kefla being unmatched in the ToP is just a hype statement, by default this would not be possible due to the existence of Jiren who is stronger than her (even if you want to argue that she is stronger than Goku / Toppo, which was never implied)

[UpFromTheSkies]

It's hard to say, power scaling has never been very consistent in Dragon Ball, Toriyama doesn't seem to take it seriously enough to bother with those details, but based on how he has been portrayed lately I'd say he's at least strong enough to take out any villian from Z and is approaching Goku and Vegetas power. I really hope he does get a power boost soon, he's always been one of my favorite characters and I'd love to see him play a bigger role in the main battles.

[Tai Lung]

Not being explicitly said by the narrative, it is hard to believe that. It is no different from people believing that Gohan was MSSB level in the manga for defeating Kefla, although it was clearly stated by Krillin that he was weaker than Goku

the difference is that krillin is krillin ... he does not feel the god ki so vados and champa say the opposite which if they can feel it and they saw the fight of goku and toppo

Except that Whis and Beerus were next to Krillin and at no time did they deny what he said. And what Vados said about Kefla being unmatched in the ToP is just a hype statement, by default this would not be possible due to the existence of Jiren who is stronger than her (even if you want to argue that she is stronger than Goku / Toppo, which was never implied)

no, do not say anything ... it is not a statement since it could only present a doubt on the part of whis ... anyway goku had saved his false kaioken and other things
Why would Vados say that Kefla has no rival if he already saw Toppo, Vegeta, Golden Frieza and Goku fight?
only jiren is the exception .. because is hold back too.
also kahseral with his scouter affirms that kefla is stronger than kale who defeated golden frieza

Until we get a confirmation by events that suggest they are part of the outlines, I'll take the most simple explanations that doesn't constitute a mayor change in the status quo, like Piccolo just trying a desperate final move knowing it wont work, those generic statements about power as being just an exaggerated expression, characters being able to fight in team despite their difference in power, etc. Especially when they are evidently empty fanservice, and come from the arc that followed the anime's ending and probably was trying to continue some of it's take.


I would guess he is not much more powerful than his DB self. Maybe close to Cell.

Piccolo would not do that by risking the lives of others, Moro also decides not to receive the attack
the characters can fight as a team only if they are hold back the power in the fight for example the same toppo is not the case here

[BWri]

It really speaks to Piccolo's potential. Even without transformations or godly training (since he didn't do much with King Kai) Piccolo still manages to remain a contender despite the insane escalation of power between the Saiyan protagonists and their new foes. He really is the perfect training partner for Gohan when you think about it, considering they're not far apart in age and even their potentials seem similar if you consider the wicked power boosts both have had in the past.

While I agree with the basics of your post, I'd just like to say that the narrative pretty much wanted us to believe that Piccolo peaked out at the Buu saga. So when people are dumbfounded about his new level of power, is because of what Toriyama previously made us believe in.

Most of that sort of thinking is fan created though. The story never gives any indication of Piccolo's growth or non-growth any way you slice it because the gulf between Semi-Cell and SSJ2 is vast enough for Piccolo to easily get lost in. Even the gulf between Semi-Cell and MSSJ is incredibly vast. I honestly think that (Goku's MSSJ) is logically what Piccolo was trying to clear for 7 years just as Vegeta was trying to clear Gohan's SSJ2. And even if Piccolo reached MSSJ level, we wouldn't have known because it was an irrelevant level of strength in the current arc and even rusty SSJ1 Gohan should be able to clear that since he was already much stronger than Goku back then.

I think too, we have to consider that SSJ2 was still considered an incredible amount of power during the Buu saga. Even Vegeta seems to have only barely cleared that gap by the time he fought with Goku and some of that was even due to the influence of Babidi's powerup. The only difference between Piccolo and Vegeta's relatively slow growths (compared to previous arcs and Super) is that Vegeta's level of power is explicitly told to us multiple times since it's relevant to the story. Piccolo's is not so many of us assume he made barely any gains, for whatever reason?

Spoiler:

I guess it's that whole Babidi/Dabura weird story beat when they singled out the 3 base saiyans even though everyone was suppressing their power and Gohan was weaker than he previously was meaning his base was much weaker than Piccolo since his stronger base form during the Cell arc was weaker than Piccolo, meaning the only way to make sense of that scene is to conclude that Dabura can somehow sense the totality of their power or is making some weird inaccurate guess based on information we cannot comprehend which somehow ends up being totally accurate but only if we consider overall power.

But it's good that Piccolo, and the rest, are having their time to shine. I'd argue that we all only wanted for it to make better sense.

I think them mentioning training for 2 months prior to Moro is probably the most sense we're going to get in the common era, at least with the side characters. At least we hear about their training before they reveal their big results unlike with Roshi.

[TheSaiyanGod]

no, do not say anything ... it is not a statement since it could only present a doubt on the part of whis ... anyway goku had saved his false kaioken and other things
Why would Vados say that Kefla has no rival if he already saw Toppo, Vegeta, Golden Frieza and Goku fight?
only jiren is the exception .. because is hold back too.
also kahseral with his scouter affirms that kefla is stronger than kale who defeated golden frieza

You are treating Vados as some kind of source that is immune to errors or misjudgments. The mere fact that Gohan drew with Kefla already proves that Vados was wrong and that Kefla was not unmatched. Again, hype statement And Kale never defeated Golden Freeza. Actually, Freeza even says that he could defeat Kale if he took her seriously.

And none of the characters there treats Kale or Kefla as warriors who have overcome the power of a Super Saiyan Blue. This is reinforced by Krillin's speech that confirms that Gohan is weaker than Goku. Kefla is stronger than Kale, of course, but the fusion still hasn't been enough to close the gap that existed between them and Goku / Vegeta / Toppo / Jiren / Freeza

[Tai Lung]

no, do not say anything ... it is not a statement since it could only present a doubt on the part of whis ... anyway goku had saved his false kaioken and other things
Why would Vados say that Kefla has no rival if he already saw Toppo, Vegeta, Golden Frieza and Goku fight?
only jiren is the exception .. because is hold back too.
also kahseral with his scouter affirms that kefla is stronger than kale who defeated golden frieza

You are treating Vados as some kind of source that is immune to errors or misjudgments. The mere fact that Gohan drew with Kefla already proves that Vados was wrong and that Kefla was not unmatched. Again, hype statement And Kale never defeated Golden Freeza. Actually, Freeza even says that he could defeat Kale if he took her seriously.

And none of the characters there treats Kale or Kefla as warriors who have overcome the power of a Super Saiyan Blue. This is reinforced by Krillin's speech that confirms that Gohan is weaker than Goku. Kefla is stronger than Kale, of course, but the fusion still hasn't been enough to close the gap that existed between them and Goku / Vegeta / Toppo / Jiren / Freeza

Vados is an angel like Whis both are in equal conditions in intelligence and experience, but Whis neither affirms nor denies anything, his silence is only a sign of doubt
It not only shows that Gohan is stronger as Frieza and Piccolo are stronger now
Vados has more knowledge to affirm something like this ... she feel the god Ki, he has already seen fighting god level warriors like toppo and goku in addition to frieza and vegeta ..
Kahseral has a scouter that he uses to measure power and claims that kefla is stronger than kale
Krillin's argument has no validity since he has no context to affirm it .. he only assumes that his friend is stronger like when he believed it in cell games and he was wrong

Vados, champa, Kahseral and Kefla> Krillin

again the same case frieza does not feel the ki ... goku can .. he thinks he was in trouble the same goku who brought him to the tournament with blows

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vados is an angel like Whis both are in equal conditions in intelligence and experience, but Whis neither affirms nor denies anything, his silence is only a sign of doubt

That is my point. Neither Whis nor Beerus disagrees with Krillin about Gohan being weaker than Goku, and they fully know Goku's strength (and they get to know Gohan's too). Is Vados aware of the ability of all fighters in the tournament to claim that Kefla is unmatched?

Vados has more knowledge to affirm something like this ... she feel the god Ki, he has already seen fighting god level warriors like toppo and goku in addition to frieza and vegeta ..

And again, it doesn't mean anything because Vados is proven to be wrong when Gohan is able to rival Kefla, so she is not unmatched. That kind of statement is the most common thing in Dragon Ball, I don’t know why you’re getting so attached to it

Kahseral has a scouter that he uses to measure power and claims that kefla is stronger than kale

I am not disagreeing with this, it is clear that Kefla is stronger than Kale

Krillin's argument has no validity since he has no context to affirm it .. he only assumes that his friend is stronger like when he believed it in cell games and he was wrong

Yes, it has validity because Krillin fully knows the strength of both Gohan and Goku. He doesn't need to feel God Ki because he has seen SSB Goku fight several times and knows the extent of his strength. On top of this, two characters who also know Goku's strength never denied Krillin's statement (which literally serves as an exposition for the reader to know that Gohan COULD overcome Goku if he kept training and that he has the potential to do so)

Vados, champa, Kahseral and Kefla> Krillin

I don't understand the meaning of this comparison. Krillin is talking about characters he knows and the narrative never disputes what he said (the story never implies through dialogues that Gohan or Kefla are in fact stronger than Goku, it's the opposite actually). While Vados spoke on behalf of fighters she doesn't know and she is literally proven wrong because Gohan, who is reportedly weaker than Goku, is able to match Kefla

[dragonball0900]

I'm pretty sure ToP Gohan is weaker than ToP MSSB Goku and Vegeta.

In a series when Goku and Vegeta are always the main focus, I'm pretty sure there would have been a direct statement saying that Gohan had already surpassed the two. But the only direct comparison we have between both Goku and Gohan during the ToP is Krillin's statement. I'm pretty sure that statement is there to remind us that Goku (and by extension, Vegeta) is still on top compared to everyone else on his team. Gohan telling Goku to fight the main strongest guy (Jiren) while he fights Kefla should also imply that the strongest on their team should keep fighting the strongest opponent in the tournament, while Gohan fights someone clearly weaker.

Then we have statements from the Moro Saga,. Piccolo states that Gohan was the strongest fighter on Earth, and Gohan soon assumed that Goku and Vegeta were not on Earth. Goku and Vegeta at that point hadn't even trained with Merus and in Yardrat respectively. The last time Gohan saw them fighting was in the ToP. He was obviously not counting Omen and MUI, so he was just taking into account their MSSB forms. If Gohan was stronger than Goku and Vegeta, he wouldn't have assumed Goku and Vegeta were away when Piccolo said he was the strongest fighter on Earth.

[Tai Lung]

That is my point. Neither Whis nor Beerus disagrees with Krillin about Gohan being weaker than Goku, and they fully know Goku's strength (and they get to know Gohan's too). Is Vados aware of the ability of all fighters in the tournament to claim that Kefla is unmatched?

Vados yes, because she had already seen toppo and goku fight and the only exception is jiren
with whis, his silence is because he feels doubts otherwise he would have affirmed it

And again, it doesn't mean anything because Vados is proven to be wrong when Gohan is able to rival Kefla, so she is not unmatched. That kind of statement is the most common thing in Dragon Ball, I don’t know why you’re getting so attached to it

not that shows that gohan is stronger and is capable of defeating someone who humiliated golden frieza ... FACTS!!
Not only is it Vados ... champa too and even kahseral agrees
basically the author is clarifying it several times

Yes, it has validity because Krillin fully knows the strength of both Gohan and Goku. He doesn't need to feel God Ki because he has seen SSB Goku fight several times and knows the extent of his strength. On top of this, two characters who also know Goku's strength never denied Krillin's statement (which literally serves as an exposition for the reader to know that Gohan COULD overcome Goku if he kept training and that he has the potential to do so

again ... keeping silence is not the same as agreeing
Krillin does not know the power of goku because he stopped accompanying him in his battles a long time ago different from the angels who know his current power ...

krillin does not know the power of gohan in cell games and he was sure that goku was stronger and he was wrong

I don't understand the meaning of this comparison. Krillin is talking about characters he knows and the narrative never disputes what he said (the story never implies through dialogues that Gohan or Kefla are in fact stronger than Goku, it's the opposite actually). While Vados spoke on behalf of fighters she doesn't know and she is literally proven wrong because Gohan, who is reportedly weaker than Goku, is able to match Kefla

this is clear ... all those characters who are capable of feeling the power of goku .. they are sure of it
and this is stated several times is basically a clarification of the author ... and again it only shows that gohan is god level

[TobyS]

It's awkward we only know 17 is above SS2 tier as he forces goku to go to 3 and then he ends the fight after 17 preps a large attack. However Goku can't sense the power of the attack so it's more the scale of the unnecessary battle that's the problem.

Feats wise he's strong but not insanely so. He doesn't dispatch Dyspo too easily.

Goku says he's about as strong as them. But I'm still unsure who the us he refers to is, just Goku and Geets or all the dragon team. He's clearly not Evo or UI level so it's a weird thing to say...

Then Piccolo seems to surpass that level but there's a massive range between SS2+ and Blue with 3 and God in between.

The suicide attack is prevented which could mean doing so is neccesary or just that Moro was spiteful/wanted to absorb the bodies...

There's really not a lot of proof the best feat is the synchronized attack. Gohans by definition operating at piccolo speed for this to work but I feel like if Piccolo was still SS2 or even 3 tier their speed and power simply wouldn't be landing at all.

[Koitsukai]

It's awkward we only know 17 is above SS2 tier as he forces goku to go to 3 and then he ends the fight after 17 preps a large attack. However Goku can't sense the power of the attack so it's more the scale of the unnecessary battle that's the problem.

Feats wise he's strong but not insanely so. He doesn't dispatch Dyspo too easily.

Goku says he's about as strong as them. But I'm still unsure who the us he refers to is, just Goku and Geets or all the dragon team. He's clearly not Evo or UI level so it's a weird thing to say...

I still can't make sense of that quote. The only way I see of making sense of that statement is if Goku doesn't take into consideration his god forms, and only the regular SS forms. In that case, then 17 is as strong as they are, because he can tango with SS3 Goku. But that would be too weird, why would he exclude the god forms or imply they aren't part of his real power? Dende also says that if 17 was still a bad guy, he'd be worried about his power increase... but again he is pretending SSG and SSB do not exist.
However, both statement fit with the anime's power levels.

It could also mean the dragon team as a whole, yes. Considering 17 used to be hardly SS level material (the standard SS of the show, not the initial SS) and now he is a decent addition, only behind the adult saiyans. I haven't thought of that before, but I think that was what Goku meant.

[Cipher]

I don't see it. The only thing he's done not paired with Gohan is plan to take Moro out by blowing up everything under his barrier, and we have no idea whether that would have had any effect.

For those Gohan-paired moments, teamwork makes the dream work. We saw it in the ToP with Goku and Vegeta managing to give the much stronger Jiren a hard time, and Gohan and Piccolo were specifically training their combination techniques during the two months between battles with Moro's goons. (For effective but power-lopsided pairs, someone pointed out Dyspo-Toppo as a team in the manga, and we can add Black and Zamasu to that as well.)

Boo's journey up into SSG territory is both remarked upon and temporary.

Gohan also knocks Seven-Three, who has just copied Piccolo's powers, silly prior to the two-month time-skip.

[FrioPolar]

Trunks and Zamasu are Blue level in the anime for doing nothing.

Piccolo at least trained.

It is not the biggest nonsense that has been seen in Super.

[Cipher]

Trunks and Zamasu are Blue level in the anime for doing nothing.

Is Trunks for-sure Blue level in the anime because he blocks one of Black's attacks in one scene, or is he for-sure not Blue level because later he gets another transformation that still has him below Goku and Vegeta, and that's a massive plot point?

Analyzing the presentation of every incidental punch and kick is a sure way to get lost in the weeds.

I feel similarly against scrutinizing individual panels in Piccolo and Gohan vs. Saganbo, but in that case there's also the element of Super highlighting the ability of teamwork to make up the difference, as noted above.

[Lionel]

Trunks and Zamasu are Blue level in the anime for doing nothing.

Piccolo at least trained.

It is not the biggest nonsense that has been seen in Super.

In Zamasu's defence, he could have sparred with Black for however long the two of them were collaborating in the future timeline. Trunks has no such explainable pretext as he only engaged in some mental image training and a single fight with his father as far as we know.

[dragonball0900]

I want to remind again that the Toppo and Dyspo team up example is invalid since Toppo, I repeat, was holding back since they were clearly fighting Goku and Vegeta in their mere SSJ/SSJ2 forms. Once Vegeta used CSSB, Dyspo was pushed aside with one hit and went on to fight Toppo.

Toppo and Dyspo in no way could fight as a team if Toppo uses his full power. And these are two fighters who had been in battles together for a good while as Pride Troopers.

Gohan and Piccolo were fighting both at full power and to the death, and still performed similarly. If Piccolo was mere SSJ2 tier or so, he would never dream of keeping up with Gohan, even if they knew how to work as a team, since the gap would be just way too big.