Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
I consider Android Kikaider, Black Jack, Drifiting Classroom, Devilman, Evagelion, Fist of the North Star, The Guyver, Jojo, Tomorrow Joe, etc to be written than Dragon Ball.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Dragon Ball and Saint Seiya got me into shonen and for me they win. I like how everything is done with these series, from mythology, to story, to the art. Never liked other shonen as much. Sure, it might be mainly because I was a fan of wuxia movies and greek mythology way before I found these shows. Still love em.
I have read Fist Of The North Star for a bit, but found it a bit boring... Jojo's Bizzare Adventure was too silly and weird after quite good first two arcs, never was a fan of stands - mainly because I am oversaturated by Pokemon, Digimon, Yugioh and all these weird monster apparitions...
Outside of that, I like other genres, like Gundam for example.
I have read Fist Of The North Star for a bit, but found it a bit boring... Jojo's Bizzare Adventure was too silly and weird after quite good first two arcs, never was a fan of stands - mainly because I am oversaturated by Pokemon, Digimon, Yugioh and all these weird monster apparitions...
Outside of that, I like other genres, like Gundam for example.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Writing wise, maybe.
A good fan acknowledges the pros & flaws of his show.
But the fact, they're nowhere near as engaging, entertaining & addictive as DB/DBZ is what makes me place DBZ/DBZ above them. Personal opinion. I appreciate cerebral shows. But if they're just talkie for 8 episodes regardless of their execution...the series kinda looses my attention.
A good fan acknowledges the pros & flaws of his show.
But the fact, they're nowhere near as engaging, entertaining & addictive as DB/DBZ is what makes me place DBZ/DBZ above them. Personal opinion. I appreciate cerebral shows. But if they're just talkie for 8 episodes regardless of their execution...the series kinda looses my attention.
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
I don't like the phrasing of these threads not only because of the reasons Cipher elaborated upon earlier, but also because they imply and perpetuate the idea that a lot of casual fans have that a pseudo-objective tier list ranking of media is possible, when it's really not. Media's "quality" is almost entirely dependent on the critic that appreciates it, and his capacity for interpreting that specific art and of integrating it into themselves.
I could theoretically write and publish a 10-20 page paper on an aspect of Dragon Ball's writing (or even an entire dissertation if I were so inclined) but that wouldn't necessarily mean it's any more or less profound than any other art I could take the time to take apart and analyse; it just means I enjoyed it more to the point where I bothered to, or I thought it had something worthwhile to share. Essentially, merit and profundity can be found in anything.
I could theoretically write and publish a 10-20 page paper on an aspect of Dragon Ball's writing (or even an entire dissertation if I were so inclined) but that wouldn't necessarily mean it's any more or less profound than any other art I could take the time to take apart and analyse; it just means I enjoyed it more to the point where I bothered to, or I thought it had something worthwhile to share. Essentially, merit and profundity can be found in anything.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
If I were to be honest. It sounds like a lot of people are fearing Dragon Ball not being seen as number one the level of apparent fear that I'm assuming when the question keeps not directly being answered. If you do not care for the question for fandom specific reasons that's fine, but let's stay on topic.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Define "good writing". What is "good writing"? A story that makes 100% sense and where everything is perfectly consistent, or a story that is very entertaining and intriguing? I would define Dragon Ball as unsurpassed when it comes to writing, because no other series is as interesting and hype to me as Dragon Ball, even if there might be more plot holes or inconsistencies compared to other series. I genuinely don't get interested in other series as much as I get interested in Dragon Ball, so to me No, no other anime series is better written than Dragon Ball.
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
This is precisely the point I was getting at. It's not some competition.UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am If I were to be honest. It sounds like a lot of people are fearing Dragon Ball not being seen as number one the level of apparent fear that I'm assuming when the question keeps not directly being answered. If you do not care for the question for fandom specific reasons that's fine, but let's stay on topic.
Challenging the underlying problems behind the question is part of the topic.
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
And again how does one even compare Dragon Ball to things like Haikyu, Food Wars, Detective Conan, etc etc?
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
You can definitely make some comparative analysis between different genres, but it often boils down to specific metrics like character, setting or the execution of similar plot beats (and I must say that in an academic setting, rarely is this done to the detriment of one work over the other but almost always in order to compare different effect/execution and show how they enhance specifically the works in question). Vague and arbitrary metrics like overall "quality" of "writing" are nearly impossible to discern between two works of art, especially if they're radically different from each other.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Unless there's a random seinen manga of Heero Yui or Char Aznable somewhere out there in the ether, the Gundam franchise is pure shonen.
This is one of those things that's only true in the most unuseful ways. Everything in life comes down to the individual's vantage point. From what foods taste good to what counts as engaging. That doesn't mean quality can't be measured. There's a reason art and artifice share the root artem (skill, craft, or talent). While complexity may not make something better and mimicking the techniques someone else developed may not make a work more "meaningful," we can grade art. It's why conservatoriums exist and why a vocal coach can help a singer improve both the technical aspects of their role and the more emotional parts.Yuji wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:33 am I don't like the phrasing of these threads not only because of the reasons Cipher elaborated upon earlier, but also because they imply and perpetuate the idea that a lot of casual fans have that a pseudo-objective tier list ranking of media is possible, when it's really not. Media's "quality" is almost entirely dependent on the critic that appreciates it, and his capacity for interpreting that specific art and of integrating it into themselves.
It's a fandom specific forum. To be expected.UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:11 am If I were to be honest. It sounds like a lot of people are fearing Dragon Ball not being seen as number one the level of apparent fear that I'm assuming when the question keeps not directly being answered. If you do not care for the question for fandom specific reasons that's fine, but let's stay on topic.
Anyway, in keeping with the spirit of 'if it kept me guessing and hyped, it was perfect' I'm gonna throw out Revolutionary Girl Utena. Utena is objectively the greatest anime ever made. It may be shojo, but I know firsthand that a lot of 14 year boys were watching it
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:37 am
This is one of those things that's only true in the most unuseful ways. Everything in life comes down to the individual's vantage point. From what foods taste good to what counts as engaging. That doesn't mean quality can't be measured. There's a reason art and artifice share the root artem (skill, craft, or talent). While complexity may not make something better and mimicking the techniques someone else developed may not make a work more "meaningful," we can grade art. It's why conservatoriums exist and why a vocal coach can help a singer improve both the technical aspects of their role and the more emotional parts.
We can grade the technical aspects of art, but that's not necessarily what's being asked here. "Writing" is a nebulous term. What writing? Plotting, character writing, scenario writing, humor, dialogue, language?
I'm not trying to break up anyone's fun here, but I'm saying these kinds of questions promote uncritical and often harmful attitudes towards art. I've seen these discussions countless times before, it always boils down to "X is better than Y because Y has shitty plot/characters." That's not really how analysis is conducted. One work of art isn't really enhanced by denigrating another, they can both aim for different things and any reader sufficiently engaged with the art he's experiencing can take away any kind of profundity.
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Shonen's not a genre.It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:37 amUnless there's a random seinen manga of Heero Yui or Char Aznable somewhere out there in the ether, the Gundam franchise is pure shonen.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:23 amShonen's not a genre.It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:37 amUnless there's a random seinen manga of Heero Yui or Char Aznable somewhere out there in the ether, the Gundam franchise is pure shonen.
It’s not it’s a demographic qualifier. But I think when people say Shounen they are usually referring to Battle Shounen like Yu Yu Hakusho, Dragon Ball, Kimetsu no Yaiba, One Piece, Etc
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Well, Gundam is sci-fi and adventure with war drama and mecha...
What we label as shonen usually is One Piece, DB, Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho etc.
But I remember this topic from the end of 90s and beginning of 00s, as Anime and manga was really undeground here, just for weird nerds dubbed otaku and Dragon Ball was seen as this simplistic dumb mainstream for kids, as ''true anime'' were things like Evangelion, Slayers and Otaku stuff... which is funny from my point of view, being scolded for not liking anime drawn in generic art style and with the same repeating tropes.
100 people, 100 tastes, but it is one of the reasons that I prefer shows like Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball, Zeta Gundam and shows from early 90s before most of the modern anime. 90s Gundam was still fun, but with Seed, damn that franchise turned to hell... huge bouncing breasts, cheap generic artstyle, otaku tropes, idols saving the war, god damn, at least I went through the compilation movies, because I would die to watch through the both whole series.
But, for example it is not my cup of tea, but One Piece is kinda good.
What we label as shonen usually is One Piece, DB, Saint Seiya, Yu Yu Hakusho etc.
But I remember this topic from the end of 90s and beginning of 00s, as Anime and manga was really undeground here, just for weird nerds dubbed otaku and Dragon Ball was seen as this simplistic dumb mainstream for kids, as ''true anime'' were things like Evangelion, Slayers and Otaku stuff... which is funny from my point of view, being scolded for not liking anime drawn in generic art style and with the same repeating tropes.
100 people, 100 tastes, but it is one of the reasons that I prefer shows like Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball, Zeta Gundam and shows from early 90s before most of the modern anime. 90s Gundam was still fun, but with Seed, damn that franchise turned to hell... huge bouncing breasts, cheap generic artstyle, otaku tropes, idols saving the war, god damn, at least I went through the compilation movies, because I would die to watch through the both whole series.
But, for example it is not my cup of tea, but One Piece is kinda good.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
And it’s wrong. Shonen is still a demographic and covers anything from kids and their fighting monsters to martial arts series to sports anime to slice of life/school anime to giant mecha. Anything that could have appeal to elementary and middle school boys.
I don’t particularly like the term “battle shonen”’ because that still puts series like Yu-gi-oh and Beyblades as the same genre as Dragon Ball but it’s a better descriptor for those shows.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
The Dragon Ball franchise has never really been known for the quality of its writing. Akira Toriyama is many things, but a good writer isn’t really one of them.
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:46 amAnd it’s wrong. Shonen is still a demographic and covers anything from kids and their fighting monsters to martial arts series to sports anime to slice of life/school anime to giant mecha. Anything that could have appeal to elementary and middle school boys.
I don’t particularly like the term “battle shonen”’ because that still puts series like Yu-gi-oh and Beyblades as the same genre as Dragon Ball but it’s a better descriptor for those shows.
People would be really surprised at some series that would constitute as “shounen” even I get surprised sometimes
One recent example is Kono Oto Tomare which is a manga about a High School Koto club with hints of romance. I would assume it is Shoujo but no it’s published in a Shounen magazine.
And sometimes shounen titles end up being more popular with a female audience and the merchandise reflects that like Haikyuu the Nendoroids are part of their line up specifically aimed at female fans.
So yes Shounen is an extremely broad indicator and just says what magazine the series was published in. It doesn’t tell you the genre or even the target demographic necessarily.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Yeah, it's a target demographic.
ok so I started writing way too much and because I'm not nearly articulate enough to be penning tl;drs over esoteric bullshit I decided to delete it all.Yuji wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:59 am We can grade the technical aspects of art, but that's not necessarily what's being asked here. "Writing" is a nebulous term. What writing? Plotting, character writing, scenario writing, humor, dialogue, language?
I'm not trying to break up anyone's fun here, but I'm saying these kinds of questions promote uncritical and often harmful attitudes towards art. I've seen these discussions countless times before, it always boils down to "X is better than Y because Y has shitty plot/characters." That's not really how analysis is conducted. One work of art isn't really enhanced by denigrating another, they can both aim for different things and any reader sufficiently engaged with the art he's experiencing can take away any kind of profundity.
I'll just say that this attitude feels like a bit of an overcorrection to the pop media criticism of the youtube/clickbait era. To appropriate Neil deGrasse Tyson's criticsm of open-mindedness, it is just as intellectually lazy to refuse to criticize anything as it is to over criticize everything. There's gotta be middle ground here somewhere
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"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes
"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
I'm not saying you can't criticize anything. I've engaged in it and if you go to the Super re-read threads, other users who I'm going to assume share similar mindsets to mine also do the same. I'm saying criticism isn't done necessarily via overall comparisons with other works of art, that's not productive and too vague of an approach.It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:01 pmYeah, it's a target demographic.
ok so I started writing way too much and because I'm not nearly articulate enough to be penning tl;drs over esoteric bullshit I decided to delete it all.Yuji wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:59 am We can grade the technical aspects of art, but that's not necessarily what's being asked here. "Writing" is a nebulous term. What writing? Plotting, character writing, scenario writing, humor, dialogue, language?
I'm not trying to break up anyone's fun here, but I'm saying these kinds of questions promote uncritical and often harmful attitudes towards art. I've seen these discussions countless times before, it always boils down to "X is better than Y because Y has shitty plot/characters." That's not really how analysis is conducted. One work of art isn't really enhanced by denigrating another, they can both aim for different things and any reader sufficiently engaged with the art he's experiencing can take away any kind of profundity.
I'll just say that this attitude feels like a bit of an overcorrection to the pop media criticism of the youtube/clickbait era. To appropriate Neil deGrasse Tyson's criticsm of open-mindedness, it is just as intellectually lazy to refuse to criticize anything as it is to over criticize everything. There's gotta be middle ground here somewhere
Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?
Another example is Inuyasha it’s a shonen series but it has a much larger female audience (at least in the states) who took to the Inuyasha and Kagome romance and having a lead female character and the pretty boys in it I was surprised it wasn’t shoujo.Kinokima wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:59 amMasenkoHA wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:46 amAnd it’s wrong. Shonen is still a demographic and covers anything from kids and their fighting monsters to martial arts series to sports anime to slice of life/school anime to giant mecha. Anything that could have appeal to elementary and middle school boys.
I don’t particularly like the term “battle shonen”’ because that still puts series like Yu-gi-oh and Beyblades as the same genre as Dragon Ball but it’s a better descriptor for those shows.
People would be really surprised at some series that would constitute as “shounen” even I get surprised sometimes
One recent example is Kono Oto Tomare which is a manga about a High School Koto club with hints of romance. I would assume it is Shoujo but no it’s published in a Shounen magazine.
And sometimes shounen titles end up being more popular with a female audience and the merchandise reflects that like Haikyuu the Nendoroids are part of their line up specifically aimed at female fans.
I’d say it does tell you who the target audience is because they’re published in a publication targeted at young boys but target demographic doesn’t necessarily correlate with the actual audience.or even the target demographic necessarily.
That My Little Pony cartoon is a good example. The target demo is young girls but a large part of its audience, infamously so, is young men.