BWri wrote: ↑Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:24 pm
I'm not sure how these two ideas connect. Base Saiyans never really changed from how they worked in the Cell saga. That's why I never bought into any of the Base Saiyans are stronger than Frieza/Piccolo etc. Are you referring to base Saiyan combat feats?
Just as a bit of precedence in terms of fan readings. It was relatively common to argue that the human fighters had surpassed Freeza by the end of the original run, only for
BoG to come out and offer a much more conservative reading.
It's not really a major pecking order change. These are two characters that weren't that different in power even as of the ToP. As far as ranking, Piccolo is literally just behind #17 in terms of power since it goes Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan >= #17, Piccolo, 18, humans. No one cares who surpasses who between these 2 unless you're a fan of either character. It's not like they're contending with MUI or SSBE or even FPSSB so no one is really invested other than Piccolo and 17 fans.
Piccolo even asks #17 what type of training he's been doing. I can understand if others don't see it this way, but to me this indicates that it's a level that Piccolo thinks he can reach if he improved his training. It could just show that he's flabbergasted about 17's power, but in hindsight it seems to be the former.
I do think it would feel somewhat significant, even as a race for fifth place or so, after the substantial attention paid to #17's unusual growth in the previous arc.
We read the Piccolo-#17 question very differently apparently; to me, Piccolo's line was intended to do nothing more than to remind the reader of the unexpected leaps #17 had made, as he was to play a key role in the arc and hadn't been able to clearly shows off his power for a few chapters by that point.
If we just take things at face value, Piccolo reaches this level as early as the U6 arc as: SSJ Goku/Vegeta (U6) >> Frost >= Piccolo > 3rd form Frost >= Base Goku and Vegeta after 3 years training post RoF >> Base Goku and Vegeta pre-3 years training *you could say that the statement made in the anime about not being able to get much stronger is true but it opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to character limits* >= RoF Final Form Frieza >> First Suppression Frieza >> SSJ Gohan > Tagoma > Piccolo >> Base Gohan.
I'm afraid I don't follow that logic at all. Super Saiyan Goku isn't implied to be radically stronger than he was in the Boo arc in the manga. Stronger than he would have been prior to the RoSaT training, sure, but Piccolo managing to keep Frost at bay (not by fighting directly; mostly by irritating him and not allowing him to get close) doesn't do much to present any great leaps in power for him. Frost himself would only have to be a Cell-level opponent to fit comfortably between Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo as last known.
I would heavily debate the soundness of placing base Goku and Vegeta at final-form Freeza level, as the manga skips over
"F" and omits all other signs of characters obtaining super-strong base forms as a consequence of the God-level transformations from the films. While the broad framework of the movies still holds true, I think it could be expected that the base forms aren't used against Freeza in the hypothetical manga-version of
"F".
If even the film version of
"F" is in a dubious place for exact strength scrutiny for the manga, than the TV version would be even more so. In the film, all we have from Piccolo is his fight against mooks and struggle with Shisami (which is hard to make heads or tails of). Nothing to go on.
There's no other evidence of this happening though, even when it's 5 on 1 vs. Saganbo. The closest thing I'll grant you was on an unskilled Kale when her power was drastically waning during the ToP, but the Saganbo fight was far removed from a scenario like that. There are no other instances team up amps in the series, none from Toyotaro. As a matter of fact we have a scenario that proves what you're saying is untrue with Dyspo and Toppo vs. Vegeta.
While we may not have any lopsided team fights beforehand, does it not stand to reason that if substantially weaker characters can team-up to make headway against stronger ones (Pride Troopers vs. Kale, Goku and Vegeta vs. Jiren), and technique can allow for momentary closing of astronomical gaps (Turtle Hermit's performance in the ToP generally, even accounting for Jiren's need to not kill him), a specifically practiced combination strategy could be a slight edge even with a lopsided pair? If 1+1 can get a good run against 5, why couldn't 4+2 get a good run against 7?
Though even that "slight edge" is kind of dubious. I went back through the Gohan-Piccolo vs. Saganbo scene last night too, and this is what everyone is making a fuss over:
1) Saganbo pushes #17 back, then #18, then everyone including Gohan and Piccolo with his first punch.
2) Saganbo picks up Gohan and #17 by their hair, swings them into their partners, then slams both into the ground.
3) There's a chapter transition, and in the next we open on Gohan and Piccolo zipping around Saganbo while #17 and #18 observe and talk (but it's not like they're out cold; more like they're taking a break for a moment to observe while Gohan and Piccolo try their team attack).
4) Saganbo immediately produces a shockwave attack, and Gohan and Piccolo backflip away.
5) Gohan and Piccolo rush back out of the backflips with a combined blast, which they fire at Saganbo point blank.
6) The blast does nothing, and Saganbo punches them out at the same time.
That's it. That's the entire fight. Here are the reasons I have issue with the certainty of a God-level Piccolo reading:
1) Since Gohan is taken out effortlessly alongside #17 at the start, one could assume that any advantage he has with Piccolo in tow (which is almost none, reading the scene) can be attributed to teamwork rather than strength.
2) The purpose of Gohan and Piccolo's teamwork was to provide an edge in strategy and technique, as seen during the Seven-Three fight.
3) There's no substantial success or headway against Saganbo highlighted. There's ample reason to just want to include a fun, partnered action sequence for a few pages, without it being a strength statement.
And then you have the lack of dialogue mentioned previously, whereas Toyotaro has generally been very clear with where and when characters have made substantial jumps in the overall tiering. Boo's power-down at the end of the arc indicates he still seems to hold God as an important threshold, which isn't accounted for in your (nor anyone else in this thread so far's) response.
I guess you can layer a God-level Piccolo onto events, but as it stands it's adding something that just isn't, really, in any way substantiated by the scene. It's just something that
could be, were it to be confirmed, which it rather pointedly isn't. On the other hand it's very easy to conclude why that scene may be the way it is without needing that reading at all.
Were someone to comment on a God-level Piccolo, what we see could fit. But were no one to comment on that (which would be telling, with Toyotaro's precedent both within and prior to the arc), what we see could also fit, and that's what winds up being the case.
Nah, you're ignoring a lot to reach the conclusion you've reached. I see what you're saying and yes, many of us do take single action scenes and extrapolate too heavily from those, but you've gone in the opposite direction. Toyotaro has given us tons of proof, of feats, of statements, of buildup to show us that he wants Piccolo in the same conversation as Gohan and #17.
All the proof and statements except the one that would do the actual work of confirming it, which he isn't shy about doling out for other characters? Why?
And why take Boo out of that tier by the end of the arc if it's now something to be quietly reached?
There is legitimately a story thread of Piccolo's growth from RoF onwards if you use both anime and manga, and from U6 onwards if you use the manga exclusively. Your mileage simply may vary on if you believe Piccolo can get this strong or not. This being DBS where #17 and Frieza exists, and with Piccolo's previous track record of massive strength increases especially when training with others, I can easily buy into what Toyotaro is obviously selling.
Freeza and #17 get unquestionable feats and statements. If the same could be said for Piccolo under the same author, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Isn't it telling as comparison that it can't be?
I just find it equally as silly to assume that the series has added new tag team mechanics in place of an obvious increase in power that the main character directly references. Don't get me wrong, the tag team stuff is there, but it's used alongside the obvious power increases, not in place of them.
Obviously both elements are in the series, but we have instances of tag-team and even technique success in which it is highlighted very pointedly as something separate from strength. That's the thrust in all three of Pride Troopers vs. Kale, Goku and Vegeta vs. Jiren, and Turtle Hermit vs. Kaserhal and Jiren.
If we want to get down into the nitty-gritty of the Saganbo fight again, I'd suggest that if strength rather than teamwork were meant to be at the fore in terms of, say, a Piccolo vs. #17 comparison, the following would be true:
1) Piccolo and Gohan's entrance into the group holding back Saganbo's lunging punch against the androids at the start would make a visible difference. It does not.
2) Gohan and would be tossed around like a ragdoll alongside #17, as #18 and Piccolo are knocked away. (As in, if strength were a key factor, Gohan, and I suppose Piccolo himself, would be more on the ups from the start. That they get a partnered scene together in the next chapter would then be more the result of just being a better combination, rather than the strongest two.)
Another point to consider is that Piccolo himself, outside of Goku and maybe Vegeta, likely has the most action scenes out of all the other characters during the Moro arc (an arc where every other relevant U7 fighting character got a lot of fight scenes). Him and Vegeta might even be neck in neck in this regard. So, Toyotaro took a particular interest in showing off Piccolo's growth as a fighter and just plain ol' showing off Piccolo for whatever reason. He got more focus than you may realize.
I'm not arguing what Toyotaro went out of his way to give Piccolo in the arc, which is more action scenes than he's had in a while, and direct commentary on having gotten stronger.
But I think it's remiss to not look at what Toyotaro does not give Piccolo that he is perfectly willing to give other characters: More deliberately telling dialogue as to an increase in tiers/up to God level. In the game of trying to suss out authorial intent on character strength, sometimes what's left unsaid, with precedent, is just as important as what's said.
I also think it's remiss to ignore how Boo's power-increase to that very tier is handled by the arc. If the main cast were reaching that level left and right, Boo might have been expected to stay up there.
Re: Anime Trunks and the entirely different conversation taking place in this thread: If reading into the punches and kicks of a particular storyboard takes precedence over beats prior and afterward of Trunks being impressed by and weaker than Blue (shouldn't he have shrugged and said "Who cares?" when Vegeta showed him the form prior if he'd already matched it?), I don't know how anyone is supposed to have any conversation about strength in the series at all. Obviously the various writers and directors of
Super as a weekly TV show weren't always keeping a close eye on how to keep presentation consistent with the overall thrust of character strength on a minute level, but that doesn't mean that overall thrust isn't made clear by major story beats. (Sometimes, with
Super TV, it's also not made clear by major story beats, which is the TV version's burden to bear, but that's not the case with Trunks, at least.) I'd say it's a case of missing the forest for the trees, but in this case I suppose it's a case of missing the story for the kicks. This is a bent to power-level discussions in
DB I find really hard to humor or identify with.