How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

[LoganForkHands73]

LoganForkHands73 In the Marvel movie of Ultron we

Spoiler:

saw Captain America was able to move the hammer a bit, but then he stopped trying.

In End Game Captain America was

Spoiler:

able to lift the hammer and Thor said that he knew it. That means Thor knew he could lift the hammer from before.

To lift Thor hammer one must be worthy, that is the seal that Oden put on Thor hammer. If the user isn't worthy then they can't lift the hammer. Where was it stated that Thor hammer weights thousand-tonne?

Although in End Game

Spoiler:

there shouldn't be any seal, since Oden put a seal when Thor risked his planet going to war. The hammer is from the past when Thor mother was alive so the seal shouldn't be on it.

I know. But my point is he goes from barely moving it an inch to being able to use it in battle almost as well as Thor, complete with all the lightning powers n' all that jazz. I'm not even critiquing it, just pointing out that it's an example of the MCU's own powerscaling issues that don't hamper the stories and character beats being told.

I think Mjolnir was taken from Thor: TDW timeframe, so the seal would probably still be in place.

[Kataphrut]

I actually like Super playing it faster-and-looser with the powerscaling than the original. I also think that it's potentially a consequence of evolving standards for action in anime, and also just a bit of indulgence on the part of the animators and promoted fanboy manga writer making it.

The old Deebeezee trope of the bad guy tanking attacks from the second-string heroes just doesn't cut it these days, so you have to make it more interesting. People criticise the two on two fight between Goku and Trunks and Black and Zamasu for example because Trunks appears to be doing well against them. But he's only doing well by those old trope standards ie his sword isn't snapping in half the moment it touches Zamasu. But if you actually watch the fight, pay attention to the story as it's being told through the animation, he's not "holding his own" at all. He's barely scraping by and most of his attacks are getting dodged or blocked. It's not "bad power scaling", it's just conveying information through action.

There's plenty of examples like that. When Krillin spars with Goku, you don't want to see Goku just standing there letting the attacks bounce off him, you want them to actually move, to fight each other. So the emphasis is on Krillin using tricky moves or techniques to outmaneuver Goku. Same with Goku's other sparring matches like the ones with Gohan, 17 and Caulifla. In all of these examples, you're not watching it to see Goku beat the shit out of them effortlessly (which he could certainly do if he really tried), you're watching it to see these triumphant returning old characters (or potentially cool new character in Caulifla's case) shine. That's the indulgence I mentioned. DBS has had fanservice baked in from the start, don't hate the series for just giving people what they want.

[super michael]

I actually like Super playing it faster-and-looser with the powerscaling than the original. I also think that it's potentially a consequence of evolving standards for action in anime, and also just a bit of indulgence on the part of the animators and promoted fanboy manga writer making it.

The old Deebeezee trope of the bad guy tanking attacks from the second-string heroes just doesn't cut it these days, so you have to make it more interesting. People criticise the two on two fight between Goku and Trunks and Black and Zamasu for example because Trunks appears to be doing well against them. But he's only doing well by those old trope standards ie his sword isn't snapping in half the moment it touches Zamasu. But if you actually watch the fight, pay attention to the story as it's being told through the animation, he's not "holding his own" at all. He's barely scraping by and most of his attacks are getting dodged or blocked. It's not "bad power scaling", it's just conveying information through action.

There's plenty of examples like that. When Krillin spars with Goku, you don't want to see Goku just standing there letting the attacks bounce off him, you want them to actually move, to fight each other. So the emphasis is on Krillin using tricky moves or techniques to outmaneuver Goku. Same with Goku's other sparring matches like the ones with Gohan, 17 and Caulifla. In all of these examples, you're not watching it to see Goku beat the shit out of them effortlessly (which he could certainly do if he really tried), you're watching it to see these triumphant returning old characters (or potentially cool new character in Caulifla's case) shine. That's the indulgence I mentioned. DBS has had fanservice baked in from the start, don't hate the series for just giving people what they want.

I like the points you make in nearly everything. Your 1st and 2nd paragraph is spot on I like it. Your 3rd paragraph is really good, the only thing I disagree is with the fanservice part. When it comes to Goten and Trunks, we fans have been let down. Since RoF all we get is teasing thinking they will do something, only for nothing to happen.

Every character shine due to fanservice, but somehow Goten and Trunks are excluded from shining even though they are using fanservice.

[Kataphrut]

I actually like Super playing it faster-and-looser with the powerscaling than the original. I also think that it's potentially a consequence of evolving standards for action in anime, and also just a bit of indulgence on the part of the animators and promoted fanboy manga writer making it.

The old Deebeezee trope of the bad guy tanking attacks from the second-string heroes just doesn't cut it these days, so you have to make it more interesting. People criticise the two on two fight between Goku and Trunks and Black and Zamasu for example because Trunks appears to be doing well against them. But he's only doing well by those old trope standards ie his sword isn't snapping in half the moment it touches Zamasu. But if you actually watch the fight, pay attention to the story as it's being told through the animation, he's not "holding his own" at all. He's barely scraping by and most of his attacks are getting dodged or blocked. It's not "bad power scaling", it's just conveying information through action.

There's plenty of examples like that. When Krillin spars with Goku, you don't want to see Goku just standing there letting the attacks bounce off him, you want them to actually move, to fight each other. So the emphasis is on Krillin using tricky moves or techniques to outmaneuver Goku. Same with Goku's other sparring matches like the ones with Gohan, 17 and Caulifla. In all of these examples, you're not watching it to see Goku beat the shit out of them effortlessly (which he could certainly do if he really tried), you're watching it to see these triumphant returning old characters (or potentially cool new character in Caulifla's case) shine. That's the indulgence I mentioned. DBS has had fanservice baked in from the start, don't hate the series for just giving people what they want.

I like the points you make in nearly everything. Your 1st and 2nd paragraph is spot on I like it. Your 3rd paragraph is really good, the only thing I disagree is with the fanservice part. When it comes to Goten and Trunks, we fans have been let down. Since RoF all we get is teasing thinking they will do something, only for nothing to happen.

Every character shine due to fanservice, but somehow Goten and Trunks are excluded from shining even though they are using fanservice.

They're the exception. I get the feeling that nobody involved with any version of Super cares about those two. They've been absent every time the extended roster gets used.

Trunks and 17 made big comebacks. Roshi's part of the main team again. Buu's had a couple moments. The Moro arc finally dragged out Yamcha and Chiaotzu. It's just Goten and Trunks left now. They got that fight with the big snake in episode one of the anime and it was all downhill from there.

[Hypersayian]

And they're still the biggest box office smashes of all time.

I never understood why people equaled money with something beeing "good". Transformers is one of the biggest box office franchises of movie history and pretty much everyone agrees that it is nonsenscial mumbo jumbo.

Average viewers don't care about powerscaling. This is reality.

I dunno - they were not very thrilled about Captain Marvel in her own movie as well as Endgame - part of this was because she was ridiculously OP. People also questioned stormbreaker vs full power Infinity Gauntlet and Scarlett Witch being superior to Thanos.

Compared to that Cap able to hold Thanos hand for 10 seconds and despite having Mjolnir + Thor+ Iron Man still beein outclassed by Thanos is peanuts.

The two scenarios are comparable. Anakin's training-less feats as a 9-year-old are just as ridiculous on their face as 20-year-old Rey's training-less feats, if not more so. The little dude blew up the entire Trade Federation control ship, and he was in control as he specifically turned the autopilot off. Rey had a lot of luck on her side in her fight, just as Anakin did on Naboo. What makes one better than the other? The fact that Anakin's 'The Chosen One'?Ultimately, the people complaining most vocally about these feats are internet nerds in echochambers. The Star Wars sequels, flawed as they are, still made billions and evidently a lot of people do like them in spite of the backlash. Don't get me wrong, there's a LOT of valid criticism to be made, but it boils down to the overuse of familiar structural elements, the often unclear motivations of the characters, etc. All these 50 minute long video essays like "Why Star Wars: The Last Star War is the WORST movie of ALL TIME" nitpicking every miniscule detail, every minor lore inconsistency, they don't constitute mature criticism.

1. Anakin used some precognition/ force enhanced reflexes. He could not use any complicated force powers. Rey resists Mind Reading - performs the Jedi mind trick - uses the force to overpower a lightly wounded and much more experienced Force user. A few days later she wins a 3vs1 against highly trained anti force users - her force pull is equal in power to a fully healed Kylo´s and she lifts 50 tons of rocks with the force. A little different - huh?

2. I never understood why people equaled money with something beeing "good". Transformers is one of the biggest box office franchises of movie history and pretty much everyone agrees that it is nonsenscial mumbo jumbo.

The sequel trilogy relied on the OP cast - the more OP characters it killed of - the less money every movie made. Also it was the first SW movie after 10 years. Without this the ST would have performed more like Solo:A Star Wars story.

Also, I'd question Kylo being only lightly wounded.

His wounds are 100% healed by the next movie, which takes place some 24 hours after he received them. So his armor probably absorbed most of the blast. Regarless someone below Padawan level should not have been able to defeat someone above Jedi Knight level - wounded or not.

You're exactly right, the inconsistency of the characters ruined it for Game of Thrones, not any bad powerscaling (though I'm not sure how that would apply to GoT in any rate...)

If inconsistency in characters can ruin a series/movie - so can inconsistency in powerjumps/scaling as well - that was the whole point of the argument.

[ABED]

I dunno - they were not very thrilled about Captain Marvel in her own movie as well as Endgame

Average viewers, not youtubers with WAY too much free time.

If inconsistency in characters can ruin a series/movie - so can inconsistency in powerjumps/scaling as well -

Characters are what we tune in for, not powerscaling.

[super michael]

I dunno - they were not very thrilled about Captain Marvel in her own movie as well as Endgame

Average viewers, not youtubers with WAY too much free time.

If inconsistency in characters can ruin a series/movie - so can inconsistency in powerjumps/scaling as well -

Characters are what we tune in for, not powerscaling.

Power scaling is important otherwise we would have characters like Chi Chi, Mr Satan, Videl, Pilaf and Paragus just by doing (X) training making them relevant and powerful like the Z fighters. It is power scaling that makes them weak.

There would be nothing stopping Dende from being powerful, although don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind seeing Dende relevant in battle being both a healer and being able to use magic like Babidi. We know in Dragon Ball there are magic users and even casting spell for magic.

Goten trained with Chi Chi.
Trunks trained with Pilaf.
Paragus trained with Broly.
Videl trained with Gohan and battled crime as Great Saiyan man and Great Saiyan woman.
Mr Satan trained with Buu.

Edit ok after that out, after typing that out I can see why characters are what we tune in. When I started writing about Dende.

[Skar]

The hardcore fandom's need for rigidity and order as Shaddy says, the "dimensional power tiering" you see on VS Battles Wiki, it often feels antithetical to the nature of Dragon Ball, don't you think? It's a silly, silly series about great characters and action. I do think most people understand that, but there's the vocal minority who see Dragon Ball as nothing but mathematics. Usually bad maths at that.

I agree fans who care about rigid power levels are a minority but I think it's an unfair generalization to imply anyone who disagrees with a certain power-up is obsessed with power levels. I don't speak for other fans and only give my opinion. I didn't mind the power scaling when it came to gods and characters from other universes and the only thing I think could've been handled better was when retired or dead characters returning with huge power-ups. In the original series, a character didn't play much of a role once they retired and there wasn't a rogue gallery or recurring villain outside of filler and movies.

It's common in revivals but in DB I've only seen it in fanwork that a character who hasn't been in the spotlight for several arcs return and catch up quickly. That was usually considered wish fulfillment since it wasn't something anyone really expected Toriyama to ever do based on the original series. A fan likes a certain character so they boost them up to make them relevant. I don't mind this too much and enjoyed some of the fan service but I can understand why some fans wouldn't like it.

[Shaddy]

So you think people would not have cared and would still have enjoyed the movies - interesting.

People don't care and do enjoy the movies -- it's certainly true of you, after all. You think people can't make up some bullshit excuse for why powerscaling problems ruin marvel movies the same way you do with Dragon Ball?

Rey defeated a lightly wounded (wounds healed within 24 hours) force user who had 20 years of training - two days after finding out the force exists - 3 days later she defeated highly specialised anti force fighters - her force pull of the light saber was equally strong as Kylos - and she lifted 50 tons of rocks no problem. All with practically 0 training. Yet people still whine about Anakin who had R2D2´s help and a lot of luck. These two things are not even remotely comparable.

Well by that logic, Kylo was both physically and psychologically injured and recovering from the events of Force Awakens and therefore wasn't at full strength. Rocks are easy. Rey has more midi-chlorians, just like Anakin. Luke is a good teacher. If you think Rey shouldn't be that strong, you actually hate Luke and think he was so incompetent and stupid that he could never possibly get her to be good at the force.

Obviously this is all bullshit -- the exact same kind of bullshit you're pushing. If you can just make up reasons you might be right by ignoring everything important about a story, I can make up reasons for you to be wrong. It doesn't matter. None of it has ever mattered. I see no reason to believe you wouldn't just hate Rey no matter how much training they gave her, and would find another excuse why it can never be enough.

No matter your attempts of rationalisation - Reys powerscaling/jump was ridiculous, stupid and lead many people to hate her character and the new SW movies - so it would seem that powerscaling does matter for a good story - huh?

Someone who in 2021 still pretends that RT is not a manipulated piece of sith website with 0 credibility and that the ratings of movie critics cannot be influenced by big corporations is to be pitied.

Well, let me ask again, Critics, or fans? You don't get to just decide everyone objectively thinks a movie is bad for the reasons you do. Are the critics biased and don't care about powerscaling in The Last Jedi, or are the power levels in Rise of Skywalker so perfect that it trumps everything that sucks about the movie? If you're going to cry that critics were paid off, then gee, they sure should have fucking done that for Rise of Skywalker, huh?

Wait your serious? Except for the the people that shut of their brain while watching the movies and dont care about consistency - no one - absolutely no one will claim this.

Sure they will. They did for the prequels. I mean, surely Lucasfilm could have just payed everyone to like them too, right? I'd do it. Where's my check? George? Kathy?

The people that shut of their brain and dont care about consistency perhaps - for the others it would be a GOT Season 8 moment that would ruin the entire movie. GOT S8 was pretty good in regards of soundtrack, cinematography, action and writing - the only bad thing they did was throw out the consistency of the characters out of the window - didnt turn out to well huh? Because it actually matters what happens.

No, actually, most Game of Thrones fans will tell you the writing was very very shit in Game of Thrones season 8, and that's why it sucked. It wasn't because of power levels.

Lets go with your example if Goku eats a magic burger, then that wouldn't be different than Goku drinking the Ultra Divine Water, which would be a magical water/food. Why does it make it more interesting when magic is involved, I don't know why that is.
I forgot Vegeta getting possessed by Babidi that unlocked Vegeta potential.

Yes, that's the point, things like the water or Old Kai are just as much of a cop-out as just giving the characters more power off-screen (or god forbid, saying they haven't been fighting at full strength in a series full of people not fighting at full strength), but it gets excused because Z is apparently untouchable.

When they give a explanation it feels like they set a rule for how they gained those powers.
When it comes to lets say Freeza beating Tagoma, then we have to question how a Zarbon/Dodorai tier fight got Freeza to God Tier and Tagoma to above Perfect Cell Tier. Remember it was mentioned by Freeza around what tier level Tagoma was.

We actually don't have to question that. Frieza never trained before. Him having a training partner at all was what let him get so strong.

Then we have Present Trunks training with Pilaf and his gang, yet no huge power increase to anyone or Paragus training with Broly, yet Paragus doesn't make insane gains but is as weak as Nappa.

What is this even supposed to mean? Not everyone increases in strength at the same speed or in the same way. Paragus is over eighty years old in the Broly movie, of course he's gotten weaker. Is this really what we're getting upset about? That a guy who could be almost ninety isn't as strong as a child prodigy who did nothing but get stronger his whole life?

There is one huge difference between Dragon Ball Super and Yashahime, they are both continuation but Dragon Ball Super uses old character, so power scales comes to play. Yashahime uses all new characters, so power scale isn't used there since there is no existing data.
I can tell you this I fully enjoy Yashahime for its writing, adventure, characters, comedy, etc. Funny enough power scaling is something I don't care in Yashahime. I never thought of this an example "this character shouldn't be this strong", "this character gain should be impossible", etc. Just incase I watched and read Inuyasha.

Now Digimon Adventure Reboot I was enjoying it a lot, that is until the Digimon unlocked their Ultimate and Mega form, then for some reason the Digimon just happens to refuse to digivolve beyond champion for no reason. They preferred to lose, let someone die and get captured instead of digivolving to Ultimate level, even though there was no problem before.

The reason I mentioned Yashahime and Digimon Adventure Reboot is to show that new doesn't mean good or bad.

You're really missing the point here, which is that powerscaling either is or isn't an issue, and if it is, then the complaints are applied totally disproportionately to Super compared to every other piece of Dragon Ball material. The classic stuff has just as numerous issues as Super, and it is excused because it's "the classic stuff". I'm here, saying the classic stuff is good too, and that since power scaling doesn't matter in the old stuff, it doesn't matter in the new stuff either.

I agree fans who care about rigid power levels are a minority but I think it's an unfair generalization to imply anyone who disagrees with a certain power-up is obsessed with power levels.

I want to be clear, this isn't what I'm saying. There are problems with power-ups in Super, but those come from them hurting tension, making the character weaker, or sidestepping answering more difficult or interesting story routes. It's about what makes for an engaging narrative, not whether every character is acting within the boundaries someone thinks they should be allowed to.

I don't speak for other fans and only give my opinion. I didn't mind the power scaling when it came to gods and characters from other universes and the only thing I think could've been handled better was when retired or dead characters returning with huge power-ups. In the original series, a character didn't play much of a role once they retired and there wasn't a rogue gallery or recurring villain outside of filler and movies.

It's common in revivals but in DB I've only seen it in fanwork that a character who hasn't been in the spotlight for several arcs return and catch up quickly. That was usually considered wish fulfillment since it wasn't something anyone really expected Toriyama to ever do based on the original series. A fan likes a certain character so they boost them up to make them relevant. I don't mind this too much and enjoyed some of the fan service but I can understand why some fans wouldn't like it.

I think this is a much more reasonable thing to take issue with, and also necessarily distinct from power level discourse. Roshi is the best example. Guy passed the torch to Goku long ago, so keeping him around in battle kind of undermines the moment where Goku is supposed to have visually far-surpassed him. That said, it's not the same as complaining that "he shouldn't be able to be that strong", because...well, of course he's going to be able to do stuff if the story wants to have him around. This was kind of GT's problem, having Goku be so far above everyone and also having them get their shit kicked in over and over. It makes for incredibly predictable storytelling. Who wants to know exactly how a fight will go before it happens?

[super michael]

Yes, that's the point, things like the water or Old Kai are just as much of a cop-out as just giving the characters more power off-screen (or god forbid, saying they haven't been fighting at full strength in a series full of people not fighting at full strength), but it gets excused because Z is apparently untouchable.

It doesn’t feel like a cop-out, even if it a cop-out as you say and your right. People don’t excuse because it is Z, although the Ultra Divine Water is before Z. I believe before Z only the Ultra Divine was the only potential unlock.

We actually don't have to question that. Frieza never trained before. Him having a training partner at all was what let him get so strong.

The movie they just mentioned Freeza trained and that was it, they didn’t give any visuals or clue to his training, which in my opinion is the better option. Why is it a better option? Easy it is up to the individual to imagine what Freeza did.

Toei thought it was smart to give extra information like Freeza beating Tagoma for 4 months and nothing else.
I just don’t know how or why beating a weakling classifies as training.

What is this even supposed to mean? Not everyone increases in strength at the same speed or in the same way. Paragus is over eighty years old in the Broly movie, of course he's gotten weaker. Is this really what we're getting upset about? That a guy who could be almost ninety isn't as strong as a child prodigy who did nothing but get stronger his whole life?

Master Roshi is older than Paragus and he doesn’t show that he is getting weaker. Heck Master Roshi has been getting stronger instead of weaker.
If I am not mistaken Master Roshi is 100+ years old.

You're really missing the point here, which is that powerscaling either is or isn't an issue, and if it is, then the complaints are applied totally disproportionately to Super compared to every other piece of Dragon Ball material. The classic stuff has just as numerous issues as Super, and it is excused because it's "the classic stuff". I'm here, saying the classic stuff is good too, and that since power scaling doesn't matter in the old stuff, it doesn't matter in the new stuff either.

The difference between classic and modern Dragon Ball is that in classic Dragon Ball we used to see all the Z fighters do extraordinary training, like these examples below:

- Master Roshi harsh training routing and heavy turtle shell.
- Korin training from day till night
- Going on adventure and fighting enemies and armies.
- Mr Popo training and Kami, which involved training physical and mentally.
- King Kai 10x gravity, which 1 year training there is like 1,000 earth year training.
- Yardrat is off-screen however Goku learns IT.
- Goku doing intense training in otherworld for 7 years, while Vegeta trains hard for 7 years.
- Tien being trained by Master Roshi rival school.


Now DBS with Goku it has been fantastic, I have zero complaint in how they train. We get to see this:

- Goku and Vegeta train with a Angel, one of the most powerful being in Dragon Ball and skillful.
- Doing funny and dangerous chores and training.
- Goku and Vegeta training, something we have never seen before.
- Goku and Vegeta training in Whis staff which is a hard version of the ROSAT, then figuring out how to move. They had to learn to not leak their Ki.
- SSG Ritual was a good idea, a ancient ritual that modern Saiyans wouldn’t know. Why no other Saiyan does it I have no idea, but none the less it was good.

I don’t use classic as an excuse for why it is better. If the fighters does extraordinary training, then I find it really good. Those training above I think they are extraordinary, especially how Master Roshi trains his student.

Just incase I watched Dragon Ball in this order:

Dragon Ball Z > Dragon Ball GT > Dragon Ball > Dragon Ball Yo Son Goku > Dragon Ball BoG > Dragon Ball RoF > Dragon Ball Super > Dragon Ball Super Broly.

I found out about Dragon Ball thanks to GT, but I couldn’t watch Dragon Ball until I got broadband internet for 24/7. Before we used to have dial-up, which isn’t ideal for many thing due to the slow speed and cost money per minute online. It disable telephone calls when using dial-up internet.



As for GT seeing Goku was the only one strong, I guess that did make it predictable and boring in some way. Heck we don’t see any training in GT and it has the same flaws like Digimon Adventure Reboot, being that Goku and all the Saiyan refuse to transform. Heck no one uses Super Saiyan 2 and as for Goten and Trunks they never fuse.

The best thing is how Goku and Vegeta gains Super Saiyan 4, although somehow Vegeta lose his tail and Super Saiyan 4 out of the blue.

[Shaddy]

The movie they just mentioned Freeza trained and that was it, they didn’t give any visuals or clue to his training, which in my opinion is the better option. Why is it a better option? Easy it is up to the individual to imagine what Freeza did.

But you're also complaining about other characters getting stronger off screen. Which is it?

Master Roshi is older than Paragus and he doesn’t show that he is getting weaker. Heck Master Roshi has been getting stronger instead of weaker.
If I am not mistaken Master Roshi is 100+ years old.

Master Roshi has lived and eaten well for well over two hundred years (probably three, but character ages are more numbers the series ignores constantly) after drinking from the fountain of youth. He will legitimately never die of natural causes, and also isn't a space alien. I see nothing unreasonable about assuming he's just physiologically different from Paragus.

Also, that really went under my reason for bringing up Roshi at all, which was to highlight his role as a character and how his presence as a fighter relates to Goku and company. This is what I've meant saying that power level discourse distracts from more in-depth discussion of the narrative itself. It's happening right now!

I don’t use classic as an excuse for why it is better. If the fighters does extraordinary training, then I find it really good. Those training above I think they are extraordinary, especially how Master Roshi trains his student.

Okay, so what exactly is your issue, then? Is it about showing them training or not? Is it about how strong people appear in relation to each other or not? I'm understanding you less and less here. My point has only ever been that designated strength inconsistencies are not a real issue, and that specifically calling them out in Super requires ignoring them in other DB material, usually from behind a pair of rose-tinted glasses. So far, I'm not seeing any reasoning as to how that's not what's going on here.

[super michael]

The movie they just mentioned Freeza trained and that was it, they didn’t give any visuals or clue to his training, which in my opinion is the better option. Why is it a better option? Easy it is up to the individual to imagine what Freeza did.

But you're also complaining about other characters getting stronger off screen. Which is it?

Master Roshi is older than Paragus and he doesn’t show that he is getting weaker. Heck Master Roshi has been getting stronger instead of weaker.
If I am not mistaken Master Roshi is 100+ years old.

Master Roshi has lived and eaten well for well over two hundred years (probably three, but character ages are more numbers the series ignores constantly) after drinking from the fountain of youth. He will legitimately never die of natural causes, and also isn't a space alien. I see nothing unreasonable about assuming he's just physiologically different from Paragus.

Also, that really went under my reason for bringing up Roshi at all, which was to highlight his role as a character and how his presence as a fighter relates to Goku and company. This is what I've meant saying that power level discourse distracts from more in-depth discussion of the narrative itself. It's happening right now!

I don’t use classic as an excuse for why it is better. If the fighters does extraordinary training, then I find it really good. Those training above I think they are extraordinary, especially how Master Roshi trains his student.

Okay, so what exactly is your issue, then? Is it about showing them training or not? Is it about how strong people appear in relation to each other or not? I'm understanding you less and less here. My point has only ever been that designated strength inconsistencies are not a real issue, and that specifically calling them out in Super requires ignoring them in other DB material, usually from behind a pair of rose-tinted glasses. So far, I'm not seeing any reasoning as to how that's not what's going on here.

You know after debating with you, I see there is no reason to not like that Master Roshi training was secret. I mean I did say that Master Roshi is really good at training his students, so that means he would be good at training himself.

The offscreen training isn't the bad part, it is the ordinary training that is hinted that I find it bad. Krillin is so strong, how would a gym make Krillin push his limits. For Mr Buu his training partner isn't even super human and doesn't even know anything about ki, how would he be able to grant Buu a huge boost in power. Mr Satan fights like a normal humans and not like a super human.
In the anime C17 says he trains, so I guess that is fine.

There the ROSAT which Dende upgraded in DBS so there is no limit to amount of time anyone can use, but somehow that place to reserved exclusively for Goku and Vegeta only. The reason why no one used the ROSAT in DBZ was because a person can only use it for 2 years in their whole life, once they used it up they can't use it again or they stay stuck in the ROSAT forever.
We know the Z fighters can handheld more than earth gravity.

Fair enough Master Roshi drunk the Fountain of Youth, so unlike Paragus old age won't affect him. I would have preferred to see Goten and Trunks over Master Roshi and Krillin to be honest and not because of power level, I just prefer characters that shows motivation to train, fight and help others. I like that they don't have any pride that stops them from fusing, they work as a team and likes having fun.

Heck I wouldn't mind seeing Dende join in fights to heal his allies or learn powerful spells like Babidi, then power level wouldn't need to be used since magic and power level are not the same thing. Babidi is weak, but his spells makes up for that, since he can explode people mind and even mind control people.

My problem was that when I hear they did ordinary training, somehow that was enough for extraordinary gains. While before it required extraordinary training to make extraordinary gains.

[Jack Bz]

I actually agree that Super's anime often frustrated me with its power scaling in a way that the original Dragon Ball manga never did. But the problems I have with it are where it isn't beneficial to the story.

I think a lot of people are being way too dismissive with this thread, and I definitely don't agree with the idea that logical consistency is a big hamper on how fun the story being told is.

I have no problems with Freeza, Broly, and don't mind 17's situation that much either. I have no problem at all with the U6 saiyans easily learning super saiyan. I especially have no problem with Roshi vs Jiren in the manga, but that's because I don't think it's actually being inconsistent at all.

What bothers me are when there are inconsistencies with the moment to moment stuff that get in the way of a coherent story.

I think Kale in the anime is super's power scaling at its worst. When a show makes me think "Oh man! I wonder how Universe 7 is going to beat Kale, Goku can't even harm her with a super saiyan blue kamehameha!" to "oh, the answer was just...fighting her in a weaker form with no particular strategy", that takes me out of the story. The writers didn't even come up with a solution to the problem they conveyed earlier of Kale being a power house that Goku can't even hurt. It felt like a pool of different writers writing a story with not enough communication between themselves, which...is what was going on.

I also take issue with Trunks and his spirit sword because it raises the question of what the characters in this show are even capable of. What even is the spirit sword? It's just a genki dama, made from a few earthlings, but is ridiculously powerful enough to destroy the immortal body of someone going toe to toe with a SSB fusion? It's too much of a jump with too little of an explanation with no build up, and really difficult to take seriously. It makes me have questions like "so, if a character is much weaker than another, can they become way more powerful by having a lot of hope and conjuring a weapon? Is that ever going to be a thing again?" and it probably never will, because that's really unsatisfying.

What was up with the Zamasu arc and conjuring massively powerful weapons out of nowhere?? Black and his scythe was another thing that made me just go "what even are the rules here???"

[Cold Skin]

Whether it's in Z or in Super, I can't say powerscaling and powerjumps are bothering for me: I just believe what I'm told and correct my logic accordingly, and gladly if it's for the sake of a renewed interest in characters.

The result is even retroactive for me: Freeza or C-17 have become much more interesting than they've ever been for me now, even in old Z arcs. Though I must say it is in great part due to the evolution of their behavior more than the revelations about their actual potentials, but it all played a part.

Back with Z, it was the same: I was just glad to have those new awesome, super-powerful fighters arriving or getting back in the spotlight and just believed what I was told: if fusion multiplies power so much that very young kids surpass adults with a whole lifetime of battles behind them, so be it! If a dancing, meditating and waiting ritual makes you more powerful than anyone else, nice! If an alien race has the power to just touch you and multiply your power more than any training before in just three seconds, good!

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

What was up with the Zamasu arc and conjuring massively powerful weapons out of nowhere?? Black and his scythe was another thing that made me just go "what even are the rules here???"

I realize saying this makes me that guy but there were never any rules. Raditz being "stronger" than Goku and Piccolo when Goku and Piccolo were portrayed as being better able to manipulate their ki didn't make any sense either. It was just a satisfying story so no one paid any attention. The power gap made the situation easy to follow, heroes have one set of skills, villain has another, so the action 'made sense' even tho none of it actually did.

The problem with the action in the Zamasu Arc is that it wasn't easy to follow because it was a much more poorly written. (Good ideas imo. Just lousy execution.) We don't actually understand the stakes in the moment to moment exchanges. When Raditz got injured, he got injured. Those wounds held him back for the rest of the fight. Same thing with the ki depletion on the heroes' side. Compare that to Zamasu where nothing seems to stick, the heroes just get back up until they can't, and attacks do nothing until suddenly they do.

[PurestEvil]

I realize saying this makes me that guy but there were never any rules. Raditz being "stronger" than Goku and Piccolo when Goku and Piccolo were portrayed as being better able to manipulate their ki didn't make any sense either. It was just a satisfying story so no one paid any attention. The power gap made the situation easy to follow, heroes have one set of skills, villain has another, so the action 'made sense' even tho none of it actually did.

...how does that not make sense? On what logical basis did you conclude that because Goku and Piccolo could "manipulate their ki" (even though raditz used his own ki blasts???), they should have been stronger than Raditz?

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

...how does that not make sense? On what logical basis did you conclude that because Goku and Piccolo could "manipulate their ki" (even though raditz used his own ki blasts???), they should have been stronger than Raditz?

Because that means they understand fighting on a level that Raditz can only dream of but for entirely arbritrary reasons weren't able to use that knowledge to grow strong enough to take Raditz one on one. Keep in mind Goku could double the strength of his attacks and Piccolo could triple his with the Makankosappo. Stuff that completely blew Raditz mind when he saw it. He's easily a much worse fighter than the two.

The series gives no explanation for why people who clearly understand the power source of the setting are unable to translate that knowledge into meaningful gains in strength. People like Raditz are just strong for no reason.

[jjgp1112]

I realize saying this makes me that guy but there were never any rules. Raditz being "stronger" than Goku and Piccolo when Goku and Piccolo were portrayed as being better able to manipulate their ki didn't make any sense either. It was just a satisfying story so no one paid any attention. The power gap made the situation easy to follow, heroes have one set of skills, villain has another, so the action 'made sense' even tho none of it actually did.

...how does that not make sense? On what logical basis did you conclude that because Goku and Piccolo could "manipulate their ki" (even though raditz used his own ki blasts???), they should have been stronger than Raditz?

If Goku and Piccolo were able to charge their attacks to levels that exceeded Radit'z static power, it stands to reason that they really should've been able to beat him easily.

It's actually something I've realized while writing my own fanfiction. These brute force guys can somehow use their Ki yet have no idea how to actually use it or even how they're accessing it. Their capabilities should be hopelessly limited. You're telling me Frieza has psychic powers but can't even lower his power level without shapeshifting???

[PurestEvil]

Because that means they understand fighting on a level that Raditz can only dream of but for entirely arbritrary reasons weren't able to use that knowledge to grow strong enough to take Raditz one on one. Keep in mind Goku could double the strength of his attacks and Piccolo could triple his with the Makankosappo. Stuff that completely blew Raditz mind when he saw it. He's easily a much worse fighter than the two.

The series gives no explanation for why people who clearly understand the power source of the setting are unable to translate that knowledge into meaningful gains in strength. People like Raditz are just strong for no reason.

Why do you think that is implausible? Yes, they can multiply their power levels by making ki attacks, but how do you know they could have been able to beat Raditz one on one? You seem to be applying arbitrary expectations on this story just because the circumstance of Raditz being stronger was arbitrary.
By the way, Raditz is not a "much worse" fighter just because he doesn't manipulate ki, he easily beats them in physical combat.

[Yuji]

The series gives no explanation for why people who clearly understand the power source of the setting are unable to translate that knowledge into meaningful gains in strength. People like Raditz are just strong for no reason.

It does: genetics, which is about as realistic as you can get. Bodybuilders, power-lifters, fighters and strongmen don't really have a better knowledge of anatomy, dieting and exercise than a good coach or sports scientist, yet they're the ones competing and breaking records because of their inherent biology. The series has always shown that your genetics (at least in terms of your species, within your species you can overcome genetics by effort) is one of the big reasons why certain characters are stronger than others.