"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

Random and scattered thoughts of Chapter 72:

- Vegeta: "Don't be absurd. I'm in no mood for teamwork." "I came here to prove my superiority over you." The more things change, the more they stay the same.

- I'm not sure how to feel how Ultra Instinct being more accurate when used in conjunction with a Super Saiyan form. If this is the direction Toyotaro is going to go with Ultra Instinct to make it a more practical technique, then the visual indication of Ultra Instinct -- the blue aura and the white-hair -- kinda become obsolete.

- Fair play to Toyotaro, he's really pushing Granolah as a major opponent. Incredibly powerful in battle, very intelligent and extremely observant.

- Man, Goku loses clean AGAIN in Super. He's really not got a good track record in combat in Super.

- Granolah descends into typical power crazy, arrogance like every other Dragon Ball villain.... ugh... boring...

- Really good panelling and fight choreography from start to finish.

Overall thoughts... this was "FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!" the chapter, with virtually no plot progression. Hopefully, next month will provide more substance.

[Magnificent Ponta]

This was a neat action chapter. It's been a while since we got a fight that progressively revealed to us what both sides were capable of doing at the same time.

I found it interesting that Vegeta observes that Goku's Ultra Instinct improves alongside his transformations, and particularly considering that he makes that observation while Goku is using SSjG: it makes sense that the Godly technique of Ultra Instinct would have a greater synergy with Godly power (which might, in turn, serve to more precisely explain the relationship between Goku's use of Ultra Instinct and his 'Jinryoku' form). And I love the panel where SSjG Goku dodges all of Granolah's blasts instantly.

I don't know whether the Kenshiro comparison for Granolah's movements is entirely apt - Hokuto no Ken is a pulp martial arts adaptation of acupuncture, disrupting ki channelling points to deal death, whereas Granolah appears to just be targeting Goku's ordinary biological vitals with his massive power and preternatural accuracy in order to deal damage with his pinpoint strikes. And of course, it's worth noting that Kenshiro's ultimate technique was actually Muso Tensei (subconscious movement), which is the same principle as Ultra Instinct.

I wonder how Vegeta obliquely knows of the Cerealians. It doesn't seem he's been to the planet, or that he was personally involved in their destruction, and he hasn't heard of the race by name, but knows of them by reputation. It makes me wonder whether there may be a backstory twist where the Cerealians may have been much-feared 'bad guys' before the Saiyans destroyed them? Granolah is a sympathetic antagonist (though, as many have noted, increasingly less so in this Chapter), but he was a child when his the Cerealians were destroyed, and we don't really know anything about the wider context of his people, as far as I recall.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops - clearly the fight escalation will serve as a cover for the Heeters gathering the Cerealian Dragon Balls, but I'm looking forward to seeing just how it happens.

[pepd]

Meh. Apart from the usual dialogue and paneling nitpicking, I'll wait for SS/B interaction with MnG, how it develops and sets, and an explicit explanation to Granola's abilities. About Granola's attitude, I think and hope he will abandon or redirectionate the feelings he quickly deeps in; there are the Heata, Zamasu was already an avenger of the crimes, and they made us empathize with Granola.

[LoganForkHands73]

This was a nothing chapter.

And relegating Vegeta to his role from the original Broly movie where he stands aside and exposits lore is trite.

Granolah's characterization also leaves much to be desired. In his debut chapters, he got to the point. There's no reason for him to be toying with his enemies, especially now that he's under a clock.

I'm also still very much against the idea that you could trade lifespan for a power boost that makes you magnitudes above fucking Jiren. If that's the case, do that whenever a new threat shows up, and then use the balls to wish the dead person back.

I don't believe any of the protagonists would ever stoop to doing what Granola did. That'd be "cheating". I'm not sure there's any evidence that Granola's above Jiren yet seeing as he's struggling against Blue.

A way they could make the 3 year lifespan gimmick work is if they properly dissect the consequences of it. Maybe we finally get a chunky timeskip, meet Granola again near the end of his life, and he wonders if it was all worth it... Maybe he realises his decision to throw his life away was senseless so he tries to make the most of life while he has it.

[jd55513]

As a powerscaler it’s interesting that Goku said whatever technique granolah uses is Faster than Instantaneous Movement. Which by all means should be impossible given its instant.

It's because Toyo is clearly implying Ultra Instinct. Same with Hakai. Ever since Chapter 69 and 70. It's been HEAVILY foreshadowed to be those moves obtained from the wish by proxy of Goku being the Strongest and Goku is the strongest because of Techniques.


Here is my detailed analysis of the history of Toyo narrative foreshadowing and the in context evidence we have so far.

https://youtu.be/-gkVxwyThw8

[DiscountDabi]

Overall thoughts... this was "FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!" the chapter, with virtually no plot progression. Hopefully, next month will provide more substance.

To be fair, this entire arc up until now has Been “Talk Talk Talk” so getting so actual action is much appreciated.

[TKA]

I don't believe any of the protagonists would ever stoop to doing what Granola did. That'd be "cheating". I'm not sure there's any evidence that Granola's above Jiren yet seeing as he's struggling against Blue.

A way they could make the 3 year lifespan gimmick work is if they properly dissect the consequences of it. Maybe we finally get a chunky timeskip, meet Granola again near the end of his life, and he wonders if it was all worth it... Maybe he realises his decision to throw his life away was senseless so he tries to make the most of life while he has it.

Yes, all of the protagonists would do what Granolah did if it was an option. Goku and Vegeta have used fusion on three occasions to do what's best for the world.

During the tournament of power, they should've made the wish on the Dragon for big power boosts.

And I don't give a hoot about Jiren's power level. Or any power level. Granolah shooting up from mook to being as strong as gods off of one wish is story-breaking and makes everything before and after look stupid. I said this months ago, and it's still an albatross around this arc's neck.

Finally, I don't give a damn about Granolah learning some moral lesson about hard work or whatever. Now we know that whenever a slightly stronger bad guy shows up, literally everyone has the ability to wish to be stronger than that bad guy and beat them, and then die and get wished back. It's bad, hackneyed writing.

I'm giving Toyotaro the benefit of the doubt and assuming there's MUCH more to this than "durr, i give up lifespan". I don't know why mangaka are so obsessed with that concept when it's MEANINGLESS. Characters die when the story dictates they die; they have no lifespan. They give up nothing. Unless we see a number over their head like in Death Note, and it's counting down, it means absolutely nothing.

[kemuri07]

Overall thoughts... this was "FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!" the chapter, with virtually no plot progression. Hopefully, next month will provide more substance.

To be fair, this entire arc up until now has Been “Talk Talk Talk” so getting so actual action is much appreciated.

While sure..I think the earlier chapters were doing something that felt "UnDragonball." I appreciated that a lot.

My issue with the last couple of chapters is that it's been going down a path that I was really hoping it wouldn't. LIke, I was really impressed by the first two chapters because it felt like Super was taking inspiration from more modern shonen. But it seems we're now right back into another scenario in which Goku and Vegeta trade off with another fighter, and wouldn't you know it, they each have a new form. And it's just like--how many times are we going to do this? Don't get me wrong, I think Toyotaro has done a lot in making the shit show that was the anime into something fun to read. But it really begs the question: Is there really any reason for this series to continue? Besides the obvious of course.

Considering that Goku seems to have already figured out that granola is not the bad guy, and Vegeta seems to be implying something about Granola that the reader might not be aware of that maybe Toyotaro has a trick up his sleeve. That and the fact that Freeza still hasn't made an appearance, makes me hope that they'll be doing something interesting with him.

[The Bastard.]

Did people read the same chapter I did?

Why are some claiming Granola is yet another villain that had the power go up his head? First he's not toying with Goku nor he's being an asshole, he really hates Sayajins and think they are a scourge in the universe, with a good reason for it, he proclaimed to be the strongest because right now he is, he will probably be surpassed but he is the strongest, and this is his first fucking fight, he will get humbled one way or the other, and will probably end as an ally or acquaintance at the very least, just have more patience than a kid in a candy store people.

[kemuri07]

Did people read the same chapter I did?

Why are some claiming Granola is yet another villain that had the power go up his head? First he's not toying with Goku nor he's being an asshole, he really hates Sayajins and think they are a scourge in the universe, with a good reason for it, he proclaimed to be the strongest because right now he is, he will probably be surpassed but he is the strongest, and this is his first fucking fight, he will get humbled one way or the other, and will probably end as an ally or acquaintance at the very least, just have more patience than a kid in a candy store people.

I think the point people are trying to make is, considering Granola wants revenge, you'd think he'd go out almost immediately and merely merc anyone who crossed him. It's purely for plot reasons that he hasn't done that.

[Kinokima]

- Vegeta: "Don't be absurd. I'm in no mood for teamwork." "I came here to prove my superiority over you." The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Yes it was a pretty standard Vegeta line but he then gives Goku the chance to fight first to get one back at Granolah (showing Vegeta doesn’t think lightly of Goku’s abilities) and uses the time to observe the situation and figure out who Granolah was. So I would argue there was much more than Vegeta’s typical arrogance at play here.


But Vegeta is always going to be arrogant. He has moments of humbleness of course but arrogance is just a part of his character.

[LoganForkHands73]

Yes, all of the protagonists would do what Granolah did if it was an option. Goku and Vegeta have used fusion on three occasions to do what's best for the world.

During the tournament of power, they should've made the wish on the Dragon for big power boosts.

Sure, maybe in an 11th hour scenario where they have zero other option, but even then I don't think Goku could live with such a thing long term. He's never used the DBs for personal gain. Ultimately, these guys are all proud martial artists. Unless they absolutely have no other option, they fight and grow stronger off their own backs. The more apt comparison than Fusion would be the Super Saiyan God ritual, which Goku didn't exactly take well to at first, but he at least came to understand it was a necessary piggyback to reach higher heights by himself. Simply wishing to become stronger for no good reason would be a betrayal of everything he and the series itself stands for.

Finally, I don't give a damn about Granolah learning some moral lesson about hard work or whatever. Now we know that whenever a slightly stronger bad guy shows up, literally everyone has the ability to wish to be stronger than that bad guy and beat them, and then die and get wished back. It's bad, hackneyed writing.

Has anything really changed though? Granola has a centuries long lifespan so there's no guarantee it would work for Kuririn or Jaco. That aside, we've always known that there's loads of other untapped methods for characters to get stronger and countless deus ex machinas that the characters could take advantage of, but never do. Drink some Ultra Divine Water, get some of those sweet potential unlocks from the Namekian Elders or Old Kaioshin, go to Kaio's place and learn Kaioken, learn Spirit Control on Yardrat (oh wait...), get some android modifications, double up Potara with Fusion Dance, get some Godly ki, use the Super Dragon Balls, get Beerus/Zeno/Jiren on speeddial again, etc. Anyone can be wished back to life anyway.

Even if everyone and Dr. Brief's cat decided to use the Granola-Patented Strongest-in-the-Universe Trick (Saiyans hate him for it), you're assuming it would always be a linear path of "character wishes to get stronger, they win, the end", and Dragon Ball is rarely that ascetic. Someone stronger will just come along and force them to try something else.

I'm giving Toyotaro the benefit of the doubt and assuming there's MUCH more to this than "durr, i give up lifespan". I don't know why mangaka are so obsessed with that concept when it's MEANINGLESS. Characters die when the story dictates they die; they have no lifespan. They give up nothing. Unless we see a number over their head like in Death Note, and it's counting down, it means absolutely nothing.

I honestly agree with your overall point about mangaka's obsessions with chipping off lifespan as a stake. But as you said in your earlier post, Granola's new mortality should give him a much greater sense of urgency. I did roll my eyes a bit at 3 years but there's ways it can pay off.

[Kinokima]

Did people read the same chapter I did?

Why are some claiming Granola is yet another villain that had the power go up his head? First he's not toying with Goku nor he's being an asshole, he really hates Sayajins and think they are a scourge in the universe, with a good reason for it, he proclaimed to be the strongest because right now he is, he will probably be surpassed but he is the strongest, and this is his first fucking fight, he will get humbled one way or the other, and will probably end as an ally or acquaintance at the very least, just have more patience than a kid in a candy store people.

I think the point people are trying to make is, considering Granola wants revenge, you'd think he'd go out almost immediately and merely merc anyone who crossed him. It's purely for plot reasons that he hasn't done that.

He actually said this chapter he wants to find Freeza. So at the very least he doesn’t want to kill one of them right away.

On another note I agree that reducing Granolah’s life span was a lame cost for such a powerful wish. It’s not really part of this chapter but I do hope Granolah pays more for his wish in some way as this arc goes on.

[Smilodon]

The fight was good. But there's something really bothering me.

They made 12 universes and possibly 18 after Tournament of Power. U6 is still unexplored, U10 had Zamasu....And the rest....Only the tournament.
They could bring a villain from another universe with unique techniques. But they bring another weak guy from U7 and made this guy the strongest with those Dragon Balls. It's very stupid, come on! If things like that was possible, so how in hell a guy like Piccolo and others doesn't have any power boost?

I was really waiting for a guy above god level by nature or hard training. In 12 or 18 universes this could be very possible (and they said it in TOP). I still wait for a threat in god's level...And without that Zen'oh button or else.

[ZombieVito]

Damn, you're right, I didn't even clock the little "ki-globs". Have there been other instances of Incomplete Blue returning accidentally?

My first reaction to this chapter is... mild disappointment, I do have to say. Granola makes a splash with his pressure-point based fighting style, that's nice. However, it's the same old structure for the last several storylines of Goku and Vegeta meeting some new asshole, they rigidly take turns fighting him, they gradually go through the old transformations, the enemy shows off a trump card, P A N I K. It's been a while since Goku was the frontman instead of Vegeta, which is neat I guess. I wasn't really expecting anything too different, but it is very much going through the motions. I was reading a bit of wisdom Toriyama gave to Toyotaro which was to take familiar concepts and tweak them slightly. Alas, every arc introduction is seemingly starting to gel into the exact same thing without much "tweaking" to be found.

While I could 100% get behind the idea of Goku using Ultra Instinct in his base form, the line about it becoming "more accurate in Super Saiyan" does just seem like another unnecessary convolution. What about Super Saiyan God makes Goku's movements sharper? Unless... oh god... Not 'Super Ultra Instinct', lord please help me no...

I do kinda agree with some criticisms I'm seeing that it doesn't make much sense for Granola to have this level of mastery of his new power, but I get the feeling Toyo is building to the moment where Granola gets called out for lack of training/stamina/talent. We'll see where this goes.

It's not even the Ki globs. A completed Blue shouldn't have an aura.

I shouldn't be surprised since he contradicts himself a lot but eh, I thought it was funny him doing it with his own ideas.

[batistabus]

Yes, all of the protagonists would do what Granolah did if it was an option. Goku and Vegeta have used fusion on three occasions to do what's best for the world.

During the tournament of power, they should've made the wish on the Dragon for big power boosts.

And I don't give a hoot about Jiren's power level. Or any power level. Granolah shooting up from mook to being as strong as gods off of one wish is story-breaking and makes everything before and after look stupid. I said this months ago, and it's still an albatross around this arc's neck.

Finally, I don't give a damn about Granolah learning some moral lesson about hard work or whatever. Now we know that whenever a slightly stronger bad guy shows up, literally everyone has the ability to wish to be stronger than that bad guy and beat them, and then die and get wished back. It's bad, hackneyed writing.

A few things:

-We don't know if Shenlong or Porunga can grant exchange wishes like Toronbo.

-Shenlong cannot revive people who die of natural causes. Presumably, even if your lifespan is shortened by a wish, this would count as dying of old age.

-I guess Super Shenlong could do it, but he could also presumably grant a wish to be 100 quintillion times stronger than Jiren, so there's that.

-Even if dying from this wish wasn't considered natural causes, we don't know if a dragon can unwish the actions of another dragon. I would presume not, with the exception of Super Shenlong.

-Shenlong cannot grant the same wish twice, so worst case scenario - and I agree it would be bad - this could only happen once with Shenlong and presumably once with Porunga.

-I agree that Goku and Vegeta would be willing to do it in a pinch, but that would be very difficult.

-As you said, there may be more to it. I'm still expecting Granolla's power to increase if Goku/etc. improves during battle, thus further diminishing Granolla's lifespan.

[Aizamasu]

Damn, you're right, I didn't even clock the little "ki-globs". Have there been other instances of Incomplete Blue returning accidentally?

My first reaction to this chapter is... mild disappointment, I do have to say. Granola makes a splash with his pressure-point based fighting style, that's nice. However, it's the same old structure for the last several storylines of Goku and Vegeta meeting some new asshole, they rigidly take turns fighting him, they gradually go through the old transformations, the enemy shows off a trump card, P A N I K. It's been a while since Goku was the frontman instead of Vegeta, which is neat I guess. I wasn't really expecting anything too different, but it is very much going through the motions. I was reading a bit of wisdom Toriyama gave to Toyotaro which was to take familiar concepts and tweak them slightly. Alas, every arc introduction is seemingly starting to gel into the exact same thing without much "tweaking" to be found.

While I could 100% get behind the idea of Goku using Ultra Instinct in his base form, the line about it becoming "more accurate in Super Saiyan" does just seem like another unnecessary convolution. What about Super Saiyan God makes Goku's movements sharper? Unless... oh god... Not 'Super Ultra Instinct', lord please help me no...

I do kinda agree with some criticisms I'm seeing that it doesn't make much sense for Granola to have this level of mastery of his new power, but I get the feeling Toyo is building to the moment where Granola gets called out for lack of training/stamina/talent. We'll see where this goes.

It's not even the Ki globs. A completed Blue shouldn't have an aura.

I shouldn't be surprised since he contradicts himself a lot but eh, I thought it was funny him doing it with his own ideas.

Goku could simply be using regular Blue to test Granola’s strenght. This whole chapter was Goku going through his forms so it’s not impossible that he is simply using regular Blue and will use the completed version in the next chapter.

[GodVegetto91]

Damn, you're right, I didn't even clock the little "ki-globs". Have there been other instances of Incomplete Blue returning accidentally?

My first reaction to this chapter is... mild disappointment, I do have to say. Granola makes a splash with his pressure-point based fighting style, that's nice. However, it's the same old structure for the last several storylines of Goku and Vegeta meeting some new asshole, they rigidly take turns fighting him, they gradually go through the old transformations, the enemy shows off a trump card, P A N I K. It's been a while since Goku was the frontman instead of Vegeta, which is neat I guess. I wasn't really expecting anything too different, but it is very much going through the motions. I was reading a bit of wisdom Toriyama gave to Toyotaro which was to take familiar concepts and tweak them slightly. Alas, every arc introduction is seemingly starting to gel into the exact same thing without much "tweaking" to be found.

While I could 100% get behind the idea of Goku using Ultra Instinct in his base form, the line about it becoming "more accurate in Super Saiyan" does just seem like another unnecessary convolution. What about Super Saiyan God makes Goku's movements sharper? Unless... oh god... Not 'Super Ultra Instinct', lord please help me no...

I do kinda agree with some criticisms I'm seeing that it doesn't make much sense for Granola to have this level of mastery of his new power, but I get the feeling Toyo is building to the moment where Granola gets called out for lack of training/stamina/talent. We'll see where this goes.

It's not even the Ki globs. A completed Blue shouldn't have an aura.

I shouldn't be surprised since he contradicts himself a lot but eh, I thought it was funny him doing it with his own ideas.

Goku could simply be using regular Blue to test Granola’s strenght. This whole chapter was Goku going through his forms so it’s not impossible that he is simply using regular Blue and will use the completed version in the next chapter.

But the concern we have is that it will weaken him, as it’s known to massively drain the user’s energy.

[Aizamasu]

It's not even the Ki globs. A completed Blue shouldn't have an aura.

I shouldn't be surprised since he contradicts himself a lot but eh, I thought it was funny him doing it with his own ideas.

Goku could simply be using regular Blue to test Granola’s strenght. This whole chapter was Goku going through his forms so it’s not impossible that he is simply using regular Blue and will use the completed version in the next chapter.

But the concern we have is that it will weaken him, as it’s known to massively drain the user’s energy.

We saw Vegeta use regular Blue and then completed Blue against Beerus before ToP and it didn’t seem to weaken the power of completed Blue. But I guess we just have to wait and see if it drains Goku’s energy too much.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Goku could simply be using regular Blue to test Granola’s strenght. This whole chapter was Goku going through his forms so it’s not impossible that he is simply using regular Blue and will use the completed version in the next chapter.

But the concern we have is that it will weaken him, as it’s known to massively drain the user’s energy.

We saw Vegeta use regular Blue and then completed Blue against Beerus before ToP and it didn’t seem to weaken the power of completed Blue.

Good example - I'd also like to offer the fact that Vegetto used ordinary SSjB for something like 40 minutes when he was smacking around Zamas, to no obvious ill effect.

Fans have tended to overrate the extent and rapidity of ordinary SSjB's power draining properties, in my opinion. I don't think it'll necessarily be a serious problem for Goku to use it for a skirmish with Granolah.