"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[GodVegetto91]

Hmmmmm so basically it’s pretty much confirmed then that the “technique” and “accuracy” of Goku’s “UI” in Base isn’t anywhere CLOSE to the level of accuracy and technique that Goku’s Silver haired form has??? Even after training with Whis? If someone could please confirm to me that it has been confirmed pretty much, that would be great.

[Cipher]

Hmmmmm so basically it’s pretty much confirmed then that the “technique” and “accuracy” of Goku’s “UI” in Base isn’t anywhere CLOSE to the level of accuracy and technique that Goku’s Silver haired form has??? Even after training with Whis? If someone could please confirm to me that it has been confirmed pretty much, that would be great.

That is the thrust of this chapter, yes.

Goku is still polishing his use of UI in lower forms, and higher forms seem to help.

[GodVegetto91]

Hmmmmm so basically it’s pretty much confirmed then that the “technique” and “accuracy” of Goku’s “UI” in Base isn’t anywhere CLOSE to the level of accuracy and technique that Goku’s Silver haired form has??? Even after training with Whis? If someone could please confirm to me that it has been confirmed pretty much, that would be great.

That is the thrust of this chapter, yes.

Goku is still polishing his use of UI in lower forms, and higher forms seem to help.

Thank you. I guess we’re just going to have to trust Toyotaro’s own words through his characters.

[batistabus]

My initial thought regarding Gas' bad experience on Cereal obviously involves the Saiyans....specifically Vegeta, based on the cliffhanger. But Elec said that was 40 years ago, so I don't know how that squares with Granolla's "50 years overdue" statement, or that Cereal was the planet of the Cerelians 40 years ago in Ch.69...

The Heata emblems double as radios. Another nice reveal of functional fashion.

I feel like Toyo may have put some effort into following Toriyama's advice to make action sequences a bit rougher, and I think it worked pretty well.

The early part of the fight felt like trying to dodge a sniper rifle combined with a Gatling gun.

"Faster than shukan ido". Fans have long accepted that the speed of this move is literally the smallest possible unit of time minus one. There's no reason to assume that. It can be "instant" the same way that "instant noodles" are. It's extremely fast and doesn't involve movement through space. Apparently Granolla can do it faster, whether it's the technique itself or the initiation of it.

There seems to be some confusion around the "It was similar to destruction" line. Some seem to take it to mean that it's not Destruction, but merely something similar (like the manga's take on SSBKK in the ToP). I take that to mean it truly was Destruction, especially based on Goku's follow-up line "does that mean he can use our techniques?" Granolla doesn't know how he knows these new techniques, so it would be strange for him to somehow learn a different application of a similar principal.

Maybe I was wrong about the implementation of MnG. I thought it would lead to base-only, and while it still might, I don't have a problem with its combination with other forms. As a technique it makes sense. I saw someone on Twitter comment that this keeps old forms relevant for merchandise, which might be a joke, but I don't think that's rightl. Sure, Dragon Ball exists largely to sell toys, but forms don't need to be involved in the main story to sell. Both versions of Broly, SS2 Gohan, have always sold despite departing form the main story. Then again, in color, they could certainly end up coloring God's irises white, which would justify a separate figure, or at least Heroes/Dokkan addition...

That brings me to Blue. Perhaps MnG won't work as well with it, since the trigger for Super Saiyan is supposedly the opposite of MnG, but we'll see. Not sure why Toyo went with incomplete Blue, but maybe it was just for aesthetics. Maybe Blue is just so far below Goku's max power that the leak isn't as significant...I don't know. My personal feeling is that Toyo has included several things in the Moro/Granolla arc that were introduced earlier in the manga in hopes that it'll get animated in the near future...

Granolla's fighting style is pretty distinct and I dig it. Can he see through skin? Is his "zoom" so crazy that he can see between cells? Or can he just notice extremely subtle changes in skin that reflect muscles and blood?

Granolla isn't going for the kill yet. He wants to get info on Freeza, but he isn't being as ruthless as was possible. He's starting to realize Goku and Vegeta aren't terrible guys, but he's refusing to accept it for the moment.

I like Vegeta's role, and I like that he watches from the ruins. That last looming shot of Vegeta standing in the Oozaro print is very nice.

[LightBing]

Why wouldn’t a transformation that increases both speed and power help improve Goku’s consistency with UI? The goal is to get it into top shape without transformations, but in the meantime improvements to his physical speed and power should help, right?

Why would it? If power was that much of an improvement why doesn't Beerus and stronger characters dominate it? The line is just thrown out without any explanation.
This is all new concepts because UI wasn't thought ahead and/or is being expanded.

Re: Goku using original-flavor Blue: They got around its massive power-drain long ago—by the time Vegeta had his second fight with Black. I don’t think there’s any deeper reason for using it here than Goku being Goku and steadily feeling Granolah’s power out/enjoying the fight. He’s done this “Let’s go all out now (but not actually)” shtick before.

They got around it explicitly, with a full explanation about it's strengths and weaknesses plus visual cue. This is either a mistake or a retcon because aura SSB sells more toys or something.

[GodVegetto91]

Why wouldn’t a transformation that increases both speed and power help improve Goku’s consistency with UI? The goal is to get it into top shape without transformations, but in the meantime improvements to his physical speed and power should help, right?

Why would it? If power was that much of an improvement why doesn't Beerus and stronger characters dominate it? The line is just thrown out without any explanation.
This is all new concepts because UI wasn't thought ahead and/or is being expanded.

Re: Goku using original-flavor Blue: They got around its massive power-drain long ago—by the time Vegeta had his second fight with Black. I don’t think there’s any deeper reason for using it here than Goku being Goku and steadily feeling Granolah’s power out/enjoying the fight. He’s done this “Let’s go all out now (but not actually)” shtick before.

They got around it explicitly, with a full explanation about it's strengths and weaknesses plus visual cue. This is either a mistake or a retcon because aura SSB sells more toys or something.

I fully agree with your points here LightBing. It’s not fully explained and expanded upon here, hence why we get guys like me asking questions and being confused.

[DiscountDabi]

"Faster than shukan ido". Fans have long accepted that the speed of this move is literally the smallest possible unit of time minus one. There's no reason to assume that. It can be "instant" the same way that "instant noodles" are. It's extremely fast and doesn't involve movement through space. Apparently Granolla can do it faster, whether it's the technique itself or the initiation of it.

I looked a bit into this and found that the general term for an instance is how long it takes light to travel a plank length. Basically, how long does it take for the fastest thing in the universe to travel the shortest distance in the universe is the shortest possible timeframe.

So if you look at it from that Granolah is simply moving faster than that.

However I think it’s important to include authors intent in how I guarantee that Toyotaro doesn’t know that. So he probably just assumes Instant is Instant.

So there’s that too.

[Yuji]

"Faster than shukan ido". Fans have long accepted that the speed of this move is literally the smallest possible unit of time minus one. There's no reason to assume that. It can be "instant" the same way that "instant noodles" are. It's extremely fast and doesn't involve movement through space. Apparently Granolla can do it faster, whether it's the technique itself or the initiation of it.

I honestly just interpreted it as Granolah not needing to concentrate and focus like Goku does.

[Xeogran]

I wish I could teleport to the next chapter already, faster than Instant Transmission

[Gt91]

I was thinking about the next fights.
The Heeters are 4 (can be more with 73 and his clones), Vegeta/Goku/Granollah are 3 (considering that Granollah could be good soon or later). Could Frieza join the fight? Or someone else?
I don't want to see only Goku and Vegeta over and over.

[ZodiacBeast]

I was thinking about the next fights.
The Heeters are 4 (can be more with 73 and his clones), Vegeta/Goku/Granollah are 3 (considering that Granollah could be good soon or later). Could Frieza join the fight? Or someone else?
I don't want to see only Goku and Vegeta over and over.

It would be funny to see Granollah get mad if Broly appears. "ANOTHER SAIYAN?!"

Spoiler:

Inb4 Seven-Three copies him.

[Rebel Instinct]

Why wouldn’t a transformation that increases both speed and power help improve Goku’s consistency with UI? The goal is to get it into top shape without transformations, but in the meantime improvements to his physical speed and power should help, right?

Why would it? If power was that much of an improvement why doesn't Beerus and stronger characters dominate it? The line is just thrown out without any explanation.
This is all new concepts because UI wasn't thought ahead and/or is being expanded.

It's not so much the power of the forms that enhance the ability to use Ultra Instinct, it's that the forms increase Goku's overall physical capabilities. The strain of UI doesn't entirely stem from an inherent stamina drain (though I imagine the silver haired form does have some level of stamina tax, as all other forms do), but rather from the strain on the body caused by all the ultra fast and unorthodox movements involved in UI. It's the snap movements themselves that are causing the wear and tear on his body. Super Saiyan et al improves the user's strength, speed, durability, energy output and general capability and in doing so, allows Goku's body to better withstand the strain of all those spontaneous, rapid-fire movements and the extra strength and speed allow him to naturally move faster and hit harder than in base or lower forms.

Beerus has a body strong enough and fast enough for Ultra Instinct, but struggles with maintaining the mindset - as it clashes with his general personality (much like Hakai clashes with Goku's). Goku has the mindset for Ultra Instinct pretty much down, it's just getting used to the strain of moving like that all the time and maintaining the technique while also maintaining other transformations that's currently tripping him up. The extra physical capability of higher forms is just acting as something of a temporary crutch to take the strain off his body while he gets used to using the technique outside the silver haired form. The idea is to grow accustomed to moving in UI at all times in all forms so that it no longer causes strain. A more physically capable transformed body is just a stop-gap until Goku gets a handle on it.

Re: Goku using original-flavor Blue: They got around its massive power-drain long ago—by the time Vegeta had his second fight with Black. I don’t think there’s any deeper reason for using it here than Goku being Goku and steadily feeling Granolah’s power out/enjoying the fight. He’s done this “Let’s go all out now (but not actually)” shtick before.

They got around it explicitly, with a full explanation about it's strengths and weaknesses plus visual cue. This is either a mistake or a retcon because aura SSB sells more toys or something.

As for why Goku appears to be using the imperfect version of Super Saiyan Blue there's a few options here:
It's possible that Goku has grown so much through training that the drain of imperfect SSB is now negligible compared to what it once was. It's also possible that Goku is simply not taking this fight as seriously as he should and willingly choosing an inferior form to slowly escalate the fight in increments. Not necessarily the most wise course of action on Goku's part, but hardly outside of his wheelhouse to restrain himself to his own detriment in a fight he's having fun with. Lastly (and in my opinion, more interestingly), it could simply be that maintaining Ultra Instinct is conflicting with Goku's ability to properly maintain SSB.

It not an unheard of concept in the manga. Back when Goku was battling Moro in Ultra Instinct -Sign-, as Goku continued fighting and straining the -Sign- form, his muscles started to swell and globs of SSB energy started leaking out because he was struggling to maintain the form. Since we see him struggle a little with maintaining UI in both Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God (both forms that Goku is rather comfortable with using), it's entirely possible that Blue is just too much for Goku to handle while using UI at the moment. Goku's only just started combining UI with his other transformations and maintaining SSB itself has been a stumbling block in the past. Perhaps combining the imperfect version of Blue with UI is as far as he's able to go with it right now? By the same token, I suspect that Goku likely won't be combining UI with Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anytime soon (3 especially, since its stamina issues have apparently yet to be solved).

It's hard to tell for now, but considering that all of these aura and energy consumption rules for SSB are Toyotaro's invention, I'd find it very difficult to believe that he simply "forgot" all about it. He's been very particular to show exactly how the aura mechanics work with the various forms and consistently portrayed them as such so far, so there has to be something to whatever is happening right now. Whatever it is will likely be addressed in the next chapter or two. I'm hard-pressed to believe that Goku having an aura while in Blue is just an error.

---

RE Granolah being faster than Instant Transmission:
I don't think the intent here is that Granolah is somehow faster than "instantaneous". Goku needs a second to raise his fingers to his forehead and lock onto an opponent's ki signature in order to initiate the technique. Considering how much of big deal was made about Hit's time-skip giving him such an advantage when it only skipped mere fractions of a second, the time it takes for Goku to activate Instant Transmission is likely ample enough time for Granolah's newfound speed to take advantage of. While Goku is making the gesture and locking onto his opponent, Granolah is already moving. So, while Instant Transmission is indeed "instant", the fact that it requires a second of start-up lag that Granolah doesn't have, it effectively allows Granolah to be "faster".

---

This is neither here nor there, but I'm loving Granolah's character so far. His overall character design, his attitude and mannerisms, the analytical no-nonsense approach to things and his very unique sniping/nimble pressure point focused fighting style - I love it all. Even his rash pursuit of revenge at all costs compliments his role in the story beautifully. He's a good man at heart, but he's been pushed to the breaking point by a life marred by cruelty and unfairness. He's hard not to sympathize with, but I'm also anticipating the harsh lessons he's going to learn for taking such a drastic shortcut to power and letting his past cloud his mind (especially juxtaposed to Vegeta's development on this matter).

At the risk of making a premature assessment, I think Granolah may be my favorite original character introduced in Super. Previously, that position was held by Hit, but Granolah has left such a strong impression that I can't help but find myself constantly entertained by his role in the story. I'm greatly looking forward to seeing where he goes in this arc. He's been a breath of fresh air so far.

[Xeogran]

It would be funny to see Granollah get mad if Broly appears. "ANOTHER SAIYAN?!"

Spoiler:

Inb4 Seven-Three copies him.

I wish Toyo wouldn't be afraid to mention Broly. Even when they were thinking of who's the strongest they didn't consider him, despite needing a SSB Fusion against him.

There was this part with Merus being told about Broly but that was an extra mini chapter and it didn't amount to anything

[Gt91]

I was thinking about the next fights.
The Heeters are 4 (can be more with 73 and his clones), Vegeta/Goku/Granollah are 3 (considering that Granollah could be good soon or later). Could Frieza join the fight? Or someone else?
I don't want to see only Goku and Vegeta over and over.

It would be funny to see Granollah get mad if Broly appears. "ANOTHER SAIYAN?!"

Spoiler:

Inb4 Seven-Three copies him.

Ahahaha absolutely!
I'd like to see him again, but maybe we have to wait the next movie.

[LightBing]

It's not so much the power of the forms that enhance the ability to use Ultra Instinct, it's that the forms increase Goku's overall physical capabilities. The strain of UI doesn't entirely stem from an inherent stamina drain (though I imagine the silver haired form does have some level of stamina tax, as all other forms do), but rather from the strain on the body caused by all the ultra fast and unorthodox movements involved in UI. It's the snap movements themselves that are causing the wear and tear on his body. Super Saiyan et al improves the user's strength, speed, durability, energy output and general capability and in doing so, allows Goku's body to better withstand the strain of all those spontaneous, rapid-fire movements and the extra strength and speed allow him to naturally move faster and hit harder than in base or lower forms.

Beerus has a body strong enough and fast enough for Ultra Instinct, but struggles with maintaining the mindset - as it clashes with his general personality (much like Hakai clashes with Goku's). Goku has the mindset for Ultra Instinct pretty much down, it's just getting used to the strain of moving like that all the time and maintaining the technique while also maintaining other transformations that's currently tripping him up. The extra physical capability of higher forms is just acting as something of a temporary crutch to take the strain off his body while he gets used to using the technique outside the silver haired form. The idea is to grow accustomed to moving in UI at all times in all forms so that it no longer causes strain. A more physically capable transformed body is just a stop-gap until Goku gets a handle on it.

That's a possible explanation, my issue is how the manga has failed to inform or at least imply something. Except for Beerus, he straight out says it doesn't fit him, although clearly the story changed his path recently, There's a reason he used UI in the Hakaishins royal rumble and not Hakai. Whis is/was supposed to be teaching him same as he was Goku and Vegeta.

If UI wasn't introduced so long ago these developments wouldn't stand out. I don't mind new developments but if the manga is doing it, reinforce it with some backing.

UI and Hakai both need clarification, clearly there's a retcon/expansion of both concepts but we aren't being informed enough. For example we know Goku's hakai was wrong, yet it clearly had an effect and Granolah used something similar.

No need to spoon feed us everything but at least substantiate throwaway lines: "UI better in SSJ forms because", that's all.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Hmmmmm so basically it’s pretty much confirmed then that the “technique” and “accuracy” of Goku’s “UI” in Base isn’t anywhere CLOSE to the level of accuracy and technique that Goku’s Silver haired form has??? Even after training with Whis? If someone could please confirm to me that it has been confirmed pretty much, that would be great.

Yes, that seems to be the case, it's just like any other technique. If he uses kamehameha in base form it won't be as powerful as if he used it in SS3 form, same with UI.

[Cipher]

"Faster than shukan ido". Fans have long accepted that the speed of this move is literally the smallest possible unit of time minus one. There's no reason to assume that. It can be "instant" the same way that "instant noodles" are. It's extremely fast and doesn't involve movement through space. Apparently Granolla can do it faster, whether it's the technique itself or the initiation of it.

I honestly just interpreted it as Granolah not needing to concentrate and focus like Goku does.

Goku comments on his "reaction" (反応, hannou) being even faster than Goku's teleportation in Japanese, which I took to mean that even if Granolah is teleporting, what sets it apart from Goku's is how quickly he's able to respond defensively by using it.

Instant means instant, but Goku might take a fraction longer to initiate the technique. So, yeah, basically what you're getting at.

[Hugo Boss]

I concur with this perspective as well. I would say that Goku is even capable of performing Instant Movement much faster if his body is able to use it in conjunction with Ultra Instinct.

[TKA]

I could see the Z-Buddies wishing for something like getting rid of the strain of the Kaio-Ken, but I doubt they would wish to increase their raw/actual strength. They wouldn't want to cheat to get ahead, but they'd want to have an ace to pull out when they need it.

Yes they would.

The saiyans are the ones who always want to fight "fair". The others are willing to do whatever it takes. They were going to kill Gero before he made the Androids and then Vegeta stopped them.

The saiyans themselves are willing to put aside all their pride and preferences when things get dire. Battle of Gods is resolved by Goku deciding he needs to accept people's help, even though it's not something he wanted to do. Vegeta on 3 occasions in canon decides to allow fusion to happen because things are dire.

They'll fuck around as long as things don't get too glum, but once things get to that point they're willing to do what's necessary.

[Yuji]

They were going to kill Gero before he made the Androids and then Vegeta stopped them.

Tenshinhan didn't want to, either, so he'd exclude himself readily from cheating his way to power. Kuririn and Yamcha would likely just refer to the Saiyans in case of any threat before they could think of using the dragon. Piccolo would realistically be the only one who'd go for that route.

Considering "earned vs unearned power" is an essential theme of Super itself, I also doubt Goku and Vegeta, at least in their Super incarnations, would opt for something like that, even if the situation is at its utmost dire. They have many other avenues and loopholes before resorting to the dragon.