Skar wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm
My point was that there were some people who were quick to dismiss the criticism and make accusations of some double standard before we even knew the pre-production issues. There were people legitimately arguing that animation quality wasn't important and that it was acceptable. It was an example of how that logic never works to convince anyone because it's only seen as an excuse and having those complaints acknowledged and given an actual explanation was more effective. There's some criticism I've seen that I was willing to overlook based on circumstances surrounding the series like it being a revival, Toriyama not having worked on the series for decades, a whole new staff, etc.
And if you want to talk about that being stupid, because it
is stupid, go right ahead. But I can't see how it relates to me calling it hypocritical when people judge one series for a thing that's just so typical for the series. You seem to be going after arguments in Super's favor that you consider unreasonable here, but I'm not making an argument in Super's favor here. Saying "power levels are bullshit" is dismissing every power scaling inconsistency in every Dragon Ball series, and I'm fine with that. So I'm struggling to see how the things you're saying relate to me if I'm not the guy doing the things you're talking about.
Skar wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm
I mean that's fine if you want to draw the line there but we've already established multiple times that strict power levels are not what I'm discussing and that I agree those fans are a minority. I'm not really sure why you keep jumping back to that. I tried to clarify in almost every comment how someone could criticize a power-up without caring about exact power levels. I included retcons, out of character moments, or any other writing someone might criticize because I've seem them get the same kind of dismissive response that hasn't worked to discourage anyone from discussing them. Granted it is less often than a few years ago so it's one of those things that dies down with time I guess.
I'm bringing it up because you keep responding to
me, and it's hard for me to discern just what the fuck you're talking about here, honestly. It's a little weird to see you explaining and explaining this alleged behavior that's oh-so unhelpful to discussion, that you seemingly equate with my own rhetoric, while you're also claiming I'm not doing it. I'm just trying to figure out what you expect me to
do with all this dialogue.
Skar wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm
Could you point to me where I've asked you to care about power scaling or any of the other things I've mentioned? I also didn't say you needed to justify why you think something is unimportant since that's an opinion you're free to have.
Well, it sure as hell sounds like it, when you keep trying to paint pointing out a hypocrisy in criticism as somehow damaging rhetoric in discussion. The idea of equating calling it hypocritical to attack Super's power scaling and excuse Z's to calling it hypocritical to attack Super's animation but not Z's hinges on the idea that each of those pairs are inherently equivalent. But what I am saying is that if we treat power scaling as a legitimate concern, there's virtually no standard by which there's a significant difference in the consistency of Z and Super (in tandem with the endless digression of potential theories and loopholes for how gaining strength works in the series), and thus it's not a concern that we should
treat as legitimate when brought up for
either series. I can't see how this hurts discussion of Super in the way you're claiming it does. It's necessarily distinct from the animation, which besides being an
actual part of the show, is a lot easier to actually track and measure in terms of how each episode's consistency and their respective staff match up, and an area where Z and Super are very much
not equal.
Skar wrote: ↑Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pmI'm not sure what you meant by about the fan edits. Of course fan edits don't affect the official material but they're an option if someone wants to rewatch a shorter version and won't miss what was removed since they're usually listed. Not affecting the official material is a reason why I don't think anyone should be bothered by these discussions they deem unimportant.
Well, you seemed to be talking about how changes from fans that you thought were pointless but that which didn't additionally bother you was some measure of how little issue it would be if those changes had been there in the official material, but I was trying to communicate that that makes assumptions about the intentions behind editing in that manner and the way we consume fan material and how it differs from our view of official content.
And as for why this stuff annoys me, it's because it always manages to distract from more meaningful discussions of the story. I see all the time someone with a legitimate grievance about Super, only for things to spiral into a totally different (and sometimes completely chaotic) discussion when someone follows up that grievance about the series not lining up with their power level headcanon. I think it's kind of a pain to see you keep responding to this by saying "but what about a power up that isn't handled well for x other reason", because that's not what we're friggin' talking about.