Is Bulma immoral

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, but the issue is in privileged people wanting to ignore politics and how art is a medium that reflects the politics and world of the creator.

The issue is labeling people who want to take a perfectly valid formalist approach to art analysis as privileged regardless of identity or cultural background.

If you have the ability to ignore the role that media plays in perpetuating broken aspects of our society then that's a privilege and abdication of responsibility that those harmed by society don't have. Asking the bare minimum of people to simply say "yeah, this is actually bad" rather than shoving their heads in the sand really is not asking much.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, but the issue is in privileged people wanting to ignore politics and how art is a medium that reflects the politics and world of the creator.

Sure, and we would do well to remember that Dragon Ball is a comic made in the mid 80s by a man who grew up in the 1960s in a very homogenized patriarchal society. So of course it’s not going to have the most enlightened view on women or lgbt people or black people.

By the same token, people sticking their fingers in their ears and pretending the problematic aspects of Dragon Ball don’t exist isn’t productive either.


But like you kind of have to take it for what it is.

And in fairness to Dragon Ball it has done a bit better in representation between Whis and Kaulifa and Kale. Not great but better.

[Yuji]

Yeah, but the issue is in privileged people wanting to ignore politics and how art is a medium that reflects the politics and world of the creator.

The issue is labeling people who want to take a perfectly valid formalist approach to art analysis as privileged regardless of identity or cultural background.

If you have the ability to ignore the role that media plays in perpetuating broken aspects of our society then that's a privilege and abdication of responsibility that those harmed by society don't have. Asking the bare minimum of people to simply say "yeah, this is actually bad" rather than shoving their heads in the sand really is not asking much.

It's not a question of ignoring or not. I look at problematic portrayal of certain marginalized groups in media - groups I'm included in - and shrug my shoulders. It's what it is, like MasenkoHA said. If you enjoy the art, you take the good and the bad. If you don't, then there is something else that won't bother you as much. This isn't to say discussion can't occur but transforming every possible discussion into a political one is more harmful than constructive. And in general, living your life obsessed with macropolitics is a pretty depressing and harmful way to live your life, speaking from experience.

I don't really have a problem with you Julie, but you need to stop speaking as if your experience is universal. It is narcissistic. The experience of marginalized groups isn't encapsulated by your experience and it doesn't make someone "privileged" if they don't feel the same urges you do to shout at the void about our miserable society.

[Koitsukai]

While not exactly what is being discussed here, I also think the issue is expecting a dumb manga, art piece or show to give us the tools and teachings for life when that's clearly not their responsability.
What are we teaching our kids?? well, first of all, what the hell are you doing by not teaching that yourself and using fucking Naruto to teach them how to treat women, elders, or their neighbor, or other cultures. Teach them how it actually works first, so when they watch something iffy on Saint Seiya, they'll recognize it and call it out.

If a kid picks up stuff from tv and takes that as how they are suppose to behave in life, then there's a bigger problem than the show they are watching. As long as we are taking about a good-faith program, that is. Which DB is, IMO.

[ChibiGoku]

I'm going to be blunt and I know a lot of users aren't going to be happy with what I'm about to say:

The fact that there is so many people in here, possibly largely Cis Straight people, handwaving complaints of minorities how they take issues with the problematic content found in the franchise for Dragon Ball, is beyond fucking infuriating. The fact that these comments are given free form on these boards and nothing is done to curve them in moderation, is also further frustrating me beyond belief.

I don't log in as much as I once used to, for various reasons. But seeing one of my friends subjected to non-stop bullshit perpetrated by users here, thinking it's okay to talk down to a Trans Woman, who is taking issue with the problematic content found in the series, including stuff that still presents itself in modern era Dragon Ball (and shounen) as a whole, fucking pisses me off.

Look. At the end of the day. Shounen is where a lot of children grow up reading stories that they enjoy. However, as we know now, it can also be an unfortunate tool to allow various kids to grow up thinking certain norms presented in these manga, are "okay", and "boys will be boys", and "making fun of gay people", etc., is all okay.

We recently had a thing happen where a handful of Japanese people petition to talk about the problems presented in Shounen Jump (and elsewhere):

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intere ... mp/.163133

This has a lot of personal accounts how growing up with this stuff has been an influence how these behaviors normalize sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc., with largely the former, here.

If you guys cannot see this, this is likely due to you guys growing up in a very privileged group who've not been subjected to this bullshit. Unfortunately, due to the fact I am a disabled queer man, I am not in the same "lucky" category. And even if I wasn't, you should listen to those how the media shapes those views. Just like the children presented in the above article.

Still, at the end of the day. Users, do fucking better at listening to minority voices in this thread. And Mods/Admins, do better not enabling these voices, because as a minority, it is beyond FUCKING infuriating seeing my friend and others subjected to this god damn bullshit. It has gotten worse over the years and this needs to be cracked down on. Minority fans of Dragon Ball should not be subjected to this shit and it should be safer for us to discuss the problems of Dragon Ball, both the past and present.

[MyVisionity]

Her age was never brought up, Roshi just assumed she was a young adult. IRL it can be hard to differentiate a 21 year old from a 16/17 year old sometimes depending on how a person develops.

Her age didn't have to be brought up. Roshi knew damn well that she was a teenager. It's the most likely assumption just by looking and listening to her. And Roshi loves young women, especially teen girls, so he's not gonna be confused. Also it's a cartoon, not real life, meaning a teenager is a teenager and an adult is an adult, if that's what the audience is told.

Aside from that, it doesn't matter whether or not he thought she was a teenager or adult. The reader/viewer already knows she's a teen, so you still have the problem of an adult male asking a female child to flash him. This doesn't change just because of any assumptions made or what the characters might happen to think.

But also Julie’s right he probably should have asked her age first before asking to see her panties

16 or 20 it makes no difference when you got an old man asking to see her panties.

[Yuji]

It is incredible that people who disagree that politics shouldn't be an inherent component of every discussion are labelled as "privileged cis straight people" without a first, let alone a second, thought and regardless of whether or not that is accurate. As if minorities are some kind of hivemind sharing the same perspective on art analysis.

[ChibiGoku]

It is incredible that people who disagree that politics shouldn't be an inherent component of every discussion are labelled as "privileged cis straight people" without a first, let alone a second, thought and regardless of whether or not that is accurate. As if minorities are some kind of hivemind sharing the same perspective on art analysis.

I mean, sure, minorities are not a monolith. but if you enable systems that impact minorities, you are part of the problem. That's all there is to it.

[Yuji]

It is incredible that people who disagree that politics shouldn't be an inherent component of every discussion are labelled as "privileged cis straight people" without a first, let alone a second, thought and regardless of whether or not that is accurate. As if minorities are some kind of hivemind sharing the same perspective on art analysis.

I mean, sure, minorities are not a monolith. but if you enable systems that impact minorities, you are part of the problem. That's all there is to it.

All I'm saying is that there is a place for a formalist approach to art and that people who are interested only to critique art through that sort of lens should not be forced to participate in a hijacked political discourse that creeps up often in threads on this website. You are not enabling anything by enjoying art as it is.

[MasenkoHA]

I'm going to be blunt and I know a lot of users aren't going to be happy with what I'm about to say:

The fact that there is so many people in here, possibly largely Cis Straight people, handwaving complaints of minorities how they take issues with the problematic content found in the franchise for Dragon Ball, is beyond fucking infuriating

And I agree 100 percent with you that is infuriating for fans to dismiss the problematic content in Dragon Ball and as a cis relatively gender conforming white male I’m not in any of the groups that is impacted by Dragon Ball’s thoughtless writing. I can only imagine how frustrating it can be for someone who actually does fall into any of those marginalized groups.

But again at the end of the day Dragon Ball is a work that exist. I think critiques of the material are fair game and people should not dismiss the experience of others. But you either take Dragon Ball for what it is warts and all or you can just not consume it. And the latter option is completely valid. If then problematic content bothers you enough you can no longer support it that is fine and you have every right. God knows there are been works of fiction I can no longer fuck with because I find the content morally reprehensible .


.

The fact that these comments are given free form on these boards and nothing is done to curve them in moderation, is also further frustrating me beyond belief.

Members have been called out and even banned for expressing bigoted viewpoints and rightfully so. This is just being completely disingenuous.

, thinking it's okay to talk down to a Trans Woman, who is taking issue with the problematic content found in the series, including stuff that still presents itself in modern era Dragon Ball (and shounen) as a whole, fucking pisses me off.

Disagreeing =/= talking down to.

[ChibiGoku]

It is incredible that people who disagree that politics shouldn't be an inherent component of every discussion are labelled as "privileged cis straight people" without a first, let alone a second, thought and regardless of whether or not that is accurate. As if minorities are some kind of hivemind sharing the same perspective on art analysis.

I mean, sure, minorities are not a monolith. but if you enable systems that impact minorities, you are part of the problem. That's all there is to it.

All I'm saying is that there is a place for a formalist approach to art and that people who are interested only to critique art through that sort of lens should not be forced to participate in a hijacked political discourse that creeps up often in threads on this website. You are not enabling anything by enjoying art as it is.

You absolutely are if you cannot acknowledge the problems that the art depicts behaviors that are normalized and enabling a generation of Kids to grow up, realizing these things are okay. I cannot tell you how much media has enabled internalized homophobia and toxic masculinity in myself, including the stuff I was subjected around me. The link I posted earlier also goes into that as well. You cannot easily say that not criticizing media for normalizing this stuff doesn't enable this stuff, because it absolutely does.

But go off.

But again at the end of the day Dragon Ball is a work that exist. I think critiques of the material are fair game and people should not dismiss the experience of others. But you either take Dragon Ball for what it is warts and all or you can just not consume it. And the latter option is completely valid. If then problematic content bothers you enough you can no longer support it that is fine and you have every right. God knows there are been works of fiction I can no longer fuck with because I find the content morally reprehensible .

I mean, the fact Dragon Ball continues to have sexual assault jokes and shit in it's modern iteration is a serious problem. I understand that Dragon Ball was a period piece and written at the time that it was where jokes have been prominent in children's media. That's not inherently what I'm going about. If anything, it should just carry a warning label given the fact it's a period piece (the DVD/BD releases for the TV series and Movies do, for the record, in Japan).

It's the simple fact certain jokes continue to be present that are beyond okay and the fact certain producers, ranging from the TV networks, to the publisher, among others, have not had a serious crack down both with Toriyama himself, and the producing staff on the projects. That's where I take serious issues.

It should NOT be happening.

Members have been called out and even banned for expressing bigoted viewpoints and rightfully so. This is just being completely disingenuous.

And guess what keeps happening? There is not enough done to protect users if people continue to do it. Even if you ban/warn users, if it keeps happening, it shows there's a problem with the way things are being handled if there's not enough to crack down on these things.

Disagreeing =/= talking down to.

They're literally handwaving and talking down on all of my friends points. So absolutely. Also, disagreeing about sexism, racism, homophobia, etc., is not a disagreement. It just means you're a fucking bigot.

[Yuji]

You cannot easily say that not criticizing media for normalizing this stuff doesn't enable this stuff, because it absolutely does.

Not what I said. You can have an awareness of your preferred piece of media's shortcomings and problematic aspects without centering your whole discourse on the series around said awareness. It is possible to critique Dragon Ball without mentioning patriarchal oppression and the effects of late capitalism on working class alienation, believe it or not.

[ChibiGoku]

You cannot easily say that not criticizing media for normalizing this stuff doesn't enable this stuff, because it absolutely does.

Not what I said. You can have an awareness of your preferred piece of media's shortcomings and problematic aspects without centering your whole discourse on the series around said awareness. It is possible to critique Dragon Ball without mentioning patriarchal oppression and the effects of late capitalism on working class alienation, believe it or not.

You're literally using an alt-right dog whistle to say you can't be critical of these works that enable oppressive systems. Guess what? Unfortunately, when your works enable systems that enable certain behaviors, at the end of the day, the work will have implications on society as a whole. And that, by it's definition is political. And I'm sorry to say, Dragon Ball is among the manga and anime that likely contributed to sexism and among other problems in Japanese society by enabling a generation of kids to think these behaviors are normal.

[Yuji]

You're literally using an alt-right dog whistle to say you can't be critical of these works that enable oppressive systems.

You live perpetually online.

Guess what? Unfortunately, when your works enable systems that enable certain behaviors, at the end of the day, the work will have implications on society as a whole. And that, by it's definition is political. And I'm sorry to say, Dragon Ball is among the manga and anime that likely contributed to sexism and among other problems in Japanese society by enabling a generation of kids to think these behaviors are normal.

I will repeat it once more: yes, everything is inherently political but that does correlate to being obligated to have your entire life dedicated to macropolitics. Acknowledge the issue, point it out if you must, and move on; don't focus your entire discourse of the series with other people around your issues with its cultural portrayals. The way you, and certain people, talk about Dragon Ball makes it seem like you are unable to enjoy it because of its admittedly rough portrayal of women and queer people. If that is the case, then fine, you're valid, there is a plethora of other progressive media you can enjoy instead.

[ChibiGoku]

You live perpetually online.

How about we not dive into ableism? Because using that as an insult is incredibly ablest.

Yes, I am almost exclusively online and have been since my teenager years. I'm a disabled adult. And I hardly see what this has anything to do with what I said.

I will repeat it once more: yes, everything is inherently political but that does correlate to being obligated to have your entire life dedicated to macropolitics. Acknowledge the issue, point it out if you must, and move on; don't focus your entire discourse of the series with other people around your issues with its cultural portrayals. The way you, and certain people, talk about Dragon Ball makes it seem like you are unable to enjoy it because of its admittedly rough portrayal of women and queer people. If that is the case, then fine, you're valid, there is a plethora of other progressive media you can enjoy instead.

I mean, the most popular pieces of media need to be criticized and evaluated. They're the ones people subject themselves to the most. By not challenging them and others on this, then that inherently is a problem. So yes, we need to actually challenge both the media that is popular, seen by the most eyes, and the users who try to argue against it.

I also don't appreciate you telling me to move on. Dragon Ball is a favorite franchise of mine. I grew up with it. It was a gateway piece for me. But at the end of the day, it's something that still gets new content to this day and the fact it has not made efforts to update numerous things in newer media, in itself, is a problem. And yes, it should be challenged. It's a popular kids television series. Kids will see this. And that's important to address it, notably around the younger audience.

[MasenkoHA]

I understand that Dragon Ball was a period piece and written at the time that it was where jokes have been prominent in children's media. That's not inherently what I'm going about. If anything, it should just carry a warning label given the fact it's a period piece (the DVD/BD releases for the TV series and Movies do, for the record, in Japan).

I agree with this, though I will say the original Dragon Ball does at the very least have a TV 14 rating slapped on it so it’s not like Funimation is presenting it as “This is for little kids”

And guess what keeps happening? There is not enough done to protect users if people continue to do it. Even if you ban/warn users, if it keeps happening, it shows there's a problem with the way things are being handled if there's not enough to crack down on these things.

There’s also a difference between being malicious and just being ignorant of the issue. I understand it can be incredibly frustrating when someone just does not get why this thing bothers someone as a member of a marginalized group that is impacted by the harmful content normalized by works like Dragon Ball. But for example not getting why Dragon Ball perpetrates sexist and misogynistic views on women is not the same as actually expressing misogynistic views.

It’s like the Pan/Misogyny in GT thread from a while ago. There were users who just simply could not understand the problem with the series director saying he refused to let Pan go Super Saiyan because she needed to be a damsel in distress for Goku to save all the time. Bad faith arguments that completely missed the point were made like “Well she got more screen time than most in GT” and “It wouldn’t matter if she went Super Saiyan anyways” but those arguments aren’t made out of genuine malice.

Also, disagreeing about sexism, racism, homophobia, etc., is not a disagreement. It just means you're a fucking bigot.

And I am so sorry to be that guy but it really isn’t that black and white. I’m sure most members on here don’t agree with any of those things. Intent needs to be considered. Someone not getting why Mr.Popo is a racist caricature is not the same as actually believing black people are inferior and deserve mockery. One is frustrating the other is repugnant.

[goku the krump dancer]

Her age was never brought up, Roshi just assumed she was a young adult. IRL it can be hard to differentiate a 21 year old from a 16/17 year old sometimes depending on how a person develops.

Her age didn't have to be brought up. Roshi knew damn well that she was a teenager. It's the most likely assumption just by looking and listening to her.

What did she do or say specifically that gave off any impression that she was a High Schooler? "Hey, I helped rescue the sea turtle too, don't I get a reward?!".. Yeah so juvenile.

As far as ChibiGoku's post, I don't even know where to begin. No one here has talked down to, berated, insulted or made lite of anyone on this thread and if they did, it was definitely warranted in that brief moment (looking at the Vegeta Morality talking point). If anything Julie (since that seems to be who you're defending) is one of the main culprits who causes these discussions to spiral out of control or be twisted into some Women Hate Conspiracy tirades. She's more than free to express her opinions but it becomes equally exhausting when every other post of hers is some sexual fantasy or her feeling insulted by something that wasn't inherently done in bad faith within the series.

And unless i'm missing something in regards to normalizing bad habits within society you'd be hard pressed to find any guy who went and grabbed a girls butt because Master Roshi did it on TV.

[JewyB]

So Bulma is a little immortal, lets discuss that and everything else should get its own topic probably.

[jjgp1112]

So Bulma is a little immortal, lets discuss that and everything else should get its own topic probably.

She survived Oolong's truck getting blown up, made it out of Namek in one piece even while it was falling apart, and has a presumably healthy sex-life with a super-powered space viking who never holds back on anything, and at the very least her mom doesn't seem to age. It's worth discussion.

[SupremeKai25]

So Bulma is a little immortal, lets discuss that and everything else should get its own topic probably.

Yeah... about that...



No she's not