"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Jack Bz]

I really despise the placing the blame on Toyotarou. At the end of the day Toriyama allows it for better or for worse. If anything, and if it wasn’t Toriyama’s idea, then it’s even more his fault for not caring enough to end the story properly rather than let it continue to drag on like this.

I didn't mean to come off as I'm trying to put any blame on Toyo, more that it just feels very unlike Toriyama. It could have indeed been his idea, but I'd be really surprised if this is his own design.

I'm surprised of this kind of thing coming from either of them tbh.

[Cipher]

I'll make a neutral observation: Vegeta gaining God of Destruction powers feels uncharacteristic of Toriyama. Considering how in-line it is with the fandom's wishes, it comes across as a predictable development, one I wouldn't doubt was suggested by Toyotarou, who generally seems very in-touch with what the fandom wants and theorizes about. Toriyama himself is a lot more subversive, and this coupled with the fact that Beerus mentoring Vegeta had never been a proper plot beat in any arc previously (outside of their battle in the beginning of the ToP, but once again that strikes me as a Toyotarou development), it leads me to believe Toyotarou has a very big hand in the writing of this arc and, possibly, of Dragon Ball going forward.

I agree with this...but I'm not very neutral about it. I don't want to be too reactionary considering the chapter isn't out yet, but I have not been the biggest fan of this whole "Vegeta learns hakai" development from the start. I think giving Vegeta destruction powers and his own god of destruction form is the most obvious route they could have gone down post-Moro to get him up to speed with Goku, it has happened lightning fast, and I wish they didn't feel such an ever present need to have Vegeta and Goku be equals. This doesn't seem like Toriyama's idea to me and really reminds me strongly of Toppo in the anime ToP more than anything else. A lot of people from other circles are happy with it because now it's Vegeta's "time to shine". Just doesn't sit right with me at all so far

I had wrongfully dismissed those leaks earlier because it was written like a fan's wet dream. I think it would also be easier for me to warm to the idea of the form if it didn't look... like it does.

I guess your mileage may vary, but for anything that might be lobbed at the DBS manga, I don’t feel that Toyotaro has ever just gone for a fan-service beat* without some sort of more considered story purpose behind it, so I think it’s worth giving this the benefit of the doubt however it might strike you in summary.

*with the exception of getting The Gang back together to fight Moro’s goons on Earth, but even that wound up getting the Saiyan arc crew in place to cooperate with Vegeta in the end

Even SSBE, which seemed the ripest for just being a “cool moment” with nothing else (and its purpose in the anime seemed solely to be putting Vegeta on par with Kaio-Ken Goku) was repurposed into setting up character work for both Vegeta and Jiren in response. Generally one of the mang’s biggest strengths (or weaknesses, depending on who you ask), has been not just doing cool for the sake of cool.

This might be both cool and character-relevant though, which would be nice! (If not cool in design—which, different people will have different opinions on—at least cool as in being a memorable chapter-ending visual.)

[Jack Bz]

I guess your mileage may vary, but for anything that might be lobbed at the DBS manga, I don’t feel that Toyotaro has ever just gone for a fan-service beat* without some sort of more considered story purpose behind it, so I think it’s worth giving this the benefit of the doubt however it might strike you in summary.

*with the exception of getting The Gang back together to fight Moro’s goons on Earth, but even that wound up getting the Saiyan arc crew in place to cooperate with Vegeta in the end

I think the Vegetto appearance in the Future Trunks arc is another example. Didn't really add or achieve anything and Toriyama never planned for it to happen in the first place.

But yeah I am course willing to just let it play out but oof, bad first impression for me.

[Tai Lung]

Piccolo would have made a much better Hakaishin.

yes!!!

Spoiler:

more original

Gonna have to disagree. Piccolo isn't really suited for Destruction. Maybe he used to be but definetly not anymore. Ever since he fused with Kami atleast, he's been more mellow and wise. Some Namekian God form or something from the Namekian Book of Legends would be cool.

Or Like How this arc mentioned that Namekians aren't from Universe 7 perhaps something with that. But Piccolo is definetly not suited for Destruction.

that also contradicts .. the development of vegeta since it is assumed no longer as before

[Cipher]

I think the Vegetto appearance in the Future Trunks arc is another example. Didn't really add or achieve anything and Toriyama never planned for it to happen in the first place.

Even then, it gives us that great Trunks-Vegeta exchange beforehand and is used to set up Vegeta knowing about and trusting his hopes to Goku’s completed Blue. Even if the impetus was fan-pleasing, Toyotaro found avenues for it to impact the story in other ways.

Very little in the manga has wound up being purely for spectacle without some attempt to work it into the storyline’s central characters, themes or plot progression.

[DiscountDabi]

Spoiler:

yes!!!

Spoiler:

more original

Gonna have to disagree. Piccolo isn't really suited for Destruction. Maybe he used to be but definetly not anymore. Ever since he fused with Kami atleast, he's been more mellow and wise. Some Namekian God form or something from the Namekian Book of Legends would be cool.

Or Like How this arc mentioned that Namekians aren't from Universe 7 perhaps something with that. But Piccolo is definetly not suited for Destruction.

that also contradicts .. the development of vegeta since it is assumed no longer as before

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?


Edit: I hope that when the chapter fully comes out we can get a design sheet for Vegeta and his new form like we did Granolah to confirm his color scheme. People were giving Granolah all sorts of Crazy Colors before his official design release.

[Tai Lung]

Spoiler:

Gonna have to disagree. Piccolo isn't really suited for Destruction. Maybe he used to be but definetly not anymore. Ever since he fused with Kami atleast, he's been more mellow and wise. Some Namekian God form or something from the Namekian Book of Legends would be cool.

Or Like How this arc mentioned that Namekians aren't from Universe 7 perhaps something with that. But Piccolo is definetly not suited for Destruction.

that also contradicts .. the development of vegeta since it is assumed no longer as before

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?

Vegeta is supposed to be a family man who no longer thinks about destroying

[DiscountDabi]

Spoiler:

that also contradicts .. the development of vegeta since it is assumed no longer as before

I’m confused. What exactly does it contradict?

Vegeta is supposed to be a family man who no longer thinks about destroying

He may be a family man but that doesn't mean he still doesn't want to grow stronger for various reason. Either just for himself or incase Frieza returns stronger than ever like he said in the Broly Movie.

Piccolo on the other hand has no such motivation to grow like Vegeta does.

[TKA]

I'll make a neutral observation: Vegeta gaining God of Destruction powers feels uncharacteristic of Toriyama. Considering how in-line it is with the fandom's wishes, it comes across as a predictable development, one I wouldn't doubt was suggested by Toyotarou, who generally seems very in-touch with what the fandom wants and theorizes about. Toriyama himself is a lot more subversive, and this coupled with the fact that Beerus mentoring Vegeta had never been a proper plot beat in any arc previously (outside of their battle in the beginning of the ToP, but once again that strikes me as a Toyotarou development), it leads me to believe Toyotarou has a very big hand in the writing of this arc and, possibly, of Dragon Ball going forward.

This is a lot of conjecture, buoyed by a lie.

Since Battle of Gods in 2013, Beerus has had an interest in Vegeta. Throughout all of Super, Vegeta has not taken well to Whis’ training, preferring to do things his own way.

You may not like this plot point or whatever, but the seeds for it have been planted.

As for what Toriyama would do, you don’t know. That’s what being subversive means. This is the guy who created Super Saiyan 3 just to use it as a red herring for the Fusion plot point. You’re making baseless assertions based on one image. In the wrestling biz, we call this being a mark.

I don’t think this arc is any good, I don’t care for new transformations, and I mostly hate the Dragonball fandom for being a black hole for creativity, but if you’re gonna do this type of criticism, it needs to be more reasoned and more fact-based.

[OrangeBanana]

At first I laughed then I cried and now I've grown to love it. Its pretty cool that Vegeta has his own transformation considering he is the secondary protagonist and at this stage him branching off from Goku is pretty major character development, even if the form jumped out of nowhere for me but I don't really mind it. Also judging from Granola's reaction I wonder if its safe to assume this transformation is about on the same level as current MUI Goku, perhaps even stronger?

[Gt91]

Piccolo would have made a much better Hakaishin.

yes!!!

more original

I think he'll have a new trasformation soon or later.
With the new lore about the Namekian, it's a possibility now.

[TheMikado]

Gonna have to disagree. Piccolo isn't really suited for Destruction. Maybe he used to be but definetly not anymore. Ever since he fused with Kami atleast, he's been more mellow and wise. Some Namekian God form or something from the Namekian Book of Legends would be cool.

Or Like How this arc mentioned that Namekians aren't from Universe 7 perhaps something with that. But Piccolo is definetly not suited for Destruction.

Right so he would actually be good at his job like some of the other universes. Toppo proves you can be pretty uptight or justice minded and still achieve destroyer status and power.

Not without the sacrifice of those ideals and personality. Jiren even called him pathetic and vegeta had a whole speech about throwing away who you are for power is nonesense.

Do you really want that for piccolo? Piccolo being important again is great and all but not at the cost of his character.

Piccolo and especially Kami care about maintaining order on a wider scale. They are big picture people. Vegeta is not. Yes he continually refers to himself as royalty, but never King as in a ruler. Vegeta's personality is only really focused on self improvement and family. In terms of personality and big picture thinking even Bulma would make a better God of Destruction than Vegeta. Just because he lends himself to destruction doesn't mean he would be right for all the job entails. Beerus essentially trained someone who would be just as ineffective as he was and would randomly destroy planets on a whim.

All of this is also ignoring the fact that Piccolo plays a similar role in GT after he dies and Dende's presence at the lookout makes Piccolo redundant. Right now Piccolo is wasting away at the top of the watchtower training his replacement. While Vegeta is training for a job he wouldn't even be good at and then forced to wonder the universe alone with Whis and away from his family which Vegeta already had issues with leaving his family to train, let alone forever.

[OLKv3]

I'll make a neutral observation: Vegeta gaining God of Destruction powers feels uncharacteristic of Toriyama. Considering how in-line it is with the fandom's wishes, it comes across as a predictable development, one I wouldn't doubt was suggested by Toyotarou, who generally seems very in-touch with what the fandom wants and theorizes about. Toriyama himself is a lot more subversive, and this coupled with the fact that Beerus mentoring Vegeta had never been a proper plot beat in any arc previously (outside of their battle in the beginning of the ToP, but once again that strikes me as a Toyotarou development), it leads me to believe Toyotarou has a very big hand in the writing of this arc and, possibly, of Dragon Ball going forward.

It felt like the direction they were going in as soon as Vegeta gave up on UI in the ToP episode where he got SSBE. Then it continued in the manga. It's just weird because we had an entire arc of remorseful Vegeta who was mopey around Namekians and telling Moro he's destined to go to hell when he dies.

[Yuji]

I'll make a neutral observation: Vegeta gaining God of Destruction powers feels uncharacteristic of Toriyama. Considering how in-line it is with the fandom's wishes, it comes across as a predictable development, one I wouldn't doubt was suggested by Toyotarou, who generally seems very in-touch with what the fandom wants and theorizes about. Toriyama himself is a lot more subversive, and this coupled with the fact that Beerus mentoring Vegeta had never been a proper plot beat in any arc previously (outside of their battle in the beginning of the ToP, but once again that strikes me as a Toyotarou development), it leads me to believe Toyotarou has a very big hand in the writing of this arc and, possibly, of Dragon Ball going forward.

This is a lot of conjecture, buoyed by a lie.

Since Battle of Gods in 2013, Beerus has had an interest in Vegeta. Throughout all of Super, Vegeta has not taken well to Whis’ training, preferring to do things his own way.

You may not like this plot point or whatever, but the seeds for it have been planted.

As for what Toriyama would do, you don’t know. That’s what being subversive means. This is the guy who created Super Saiyan 3 just to use it as a red herring for the Fusion plot point. You’re making baseless assertions based on one image. In the wrestling biz, we call this being a mark.

I don’t think this arc is any good, I don’t care for new transformations, and I mostly hate the Dragonball fandom for being a black hole for creativity, but if you’re gonna do this type of criticism, it needs to be more reasoned and more fact-based.

Well, obviously it's conjecture, we don't have the details on who's writing what. I'm making an observation based on a plot development which seems to predictable and fanservice-y to be Toriyama's. I also never said it was necessarily a bad plot development or one that could necessarily conflict with previous ones, only that it was a predictable route that didn't strike me as his idea. I'm neutral about it.

[Saturnine]

I think he'll have a new trasformation soon or later.
With the new lore about the Namekian, it's a possibility now.

What's funny, is that the potential has been there since day one. Piccolo could receive very easy transformations based on recolors. Like the pink spots on all Namekians' bodies - in the manga they're always yellow, while the anime has made them pink for youthful Namekians, yellow for aged ones, and dark orange for the most elderly. Like drying leaves, and then rotting ones. Piccolo could get a form where these spots glow white or something, now that'd be pretty awesome. Piccolo has shown that despite that he's no longer top tier, he's able to not hold Ultimate Gohan back when fighting as a team, and in the anime he could even no-diff kill SSj2 Gohan in a few seconds. His growth potential is downright wicked, the only issue is that there still hasn't been a recent plot where Goku and Vegeta are out of commission for an extended time and the other guys can put some villain to bed by themselves. Would definitely be nice to see a big fight by someone else, that sort of stuff happens all the time in most ensemble cast shonen mangas. DB is going the Goku/Vegeta route increasingly, which is a bit of a shame with such a great supporting cast.

[zekken1]

Lets just hope that this form never makes it into the anime, like why does Toyo feel the need to do another transformation?? Like what happens to blue now? He should have just stuck with the Blue form..... or if anything give him Ultra Instinct since its an already established form. Why clutter the zeitgeist even more how will this look for new fans.
Dragon Ball Manga isn't really the definitive version for most fans anyway the anime & movies make way better impact, so as they've done before just please stray away from the manga and just add better rewrites to both the Moro stuff & Granolah.

All this might seem very cynical & critical of me, but why settle for lesser media when there so much else good to consume out there. Maybe the movie revealings this friday will set things on a better path, lets hope

[Jmass97]

Lets just hope that this form never makes it into the anime, like why does Toyo feel the need to do another transformation?? Like what happens to blue now? He should have just stuck with the Blue form..... or if anything give him Ultra Instinct since its an already established form. Why clutter the zeitgeist even more how will this look for new fans.
Dragon Ball Manga isn't really the definitive version for most fans anyway the anime & movies make way better impact, so as they've done before just please stray away from the manga and just add better rewrites to both the Moro stuff & Granolah.

All this might seem very cynical & critical of me, but why settle for lesser media when there so much else good to consume out there. Maybe the movie revealings this friday will set things on a better path, lets hope

I disagree. Vegeta has had blue since revival of f and got blue evolved during the top…which was still basically 3 arcs ago. He’s long overdue for a new power up/transformation and giving him UI just like Goku is repetitive and doesn’t add anything to his character/character development to be honest. This new G.O.D form is unique and signifies a difference in philosophy while finally putting him on a level that should be comparable to UI Goku or at least give him abilities that can act as counters to what UI gives Goku or any other character that can use ultra instinct.

[zekken1]

Lets just hope that this form never makes it into the anime, like why does Toyo feel the need to do another transformation?? Like what happens to blue now? He should have just stuck with the Blue form..... or if anything give him Ultra Instinct since its an already established form. Why clutter the zeitgeist even more how will this look for new fans.
Dragon Ball Manga isn't really the definitive version for most fans anyway the anime & movies make way better impact, so as they've done before just please stray away from the manga and just add better rewrites to both the Moro stuff & Granolah.

All this might seem very cynical & critical of me, but why settle for lesser media when there so much else good to consume out there. Maybe the movie revealings this friday will set things on a better path, lets hope

I disagree. Vegeta has had blue since revival of f and got blue evolved during the top…which was still basically 3 arcs ago. He’s long overdue for a new power up/transformation and giving him UI just like Goku is repetitive and doesn’t add anything to his character/character development to be honest. This new G.O.D form finally puts him on a level that should be comparable to UI Goku or at least give him abilities that can act as counters to what UI gives Goku or any other character that can use ultra instinct.

Trust me Vegeta is my favorite character ever. I want him to thrive, but not in a way that deals more harm to the franchise overall than it does good to himself. You say he's had BLue ince RoF and is due for a new transformation.
I say that concept of him being "due" for a new form is wrong in its self, DB should have now in Super moved away from forms and focused more on techniques. Him getting Hakai powers is good but you could have just added that on to the Blue form. No need to clutter it even more with forms we frankly don't need. The reason for saying UI instead is because that wouldn't clutter anything & UI s a really good martial arts concept.
I get that Toppo had the destroyer form in the T.O.P but you could easily just have and-waived it for Vegeta and said he could just add it on top of BE or smt.

[Jmass97]

Lets just hope that this form never makes it into the anime, like why does Toyo feel the need to do another transformation?? Like what happens to blue now? He should have just stuck with the Blue form..... or if anything give him Ultra Instinct since its an already established form. Why clutter the zeitgeist even more how will this look for new fans.
Dragon Ball Manga isn't really the definitive version for most fans anyway the anime & movies make way better impact, so as they've done before just please stray away from the manga and just add better rewrites to both the Moro stuff & Granolah.

All this might seem very cynical & critical of me, but why settle for lesser media when there so much else good to consume out there. Maybe the movie revealings this friday will set things on a better path, lets hope

I disagree. Vegeta has had blue since revival of f and got blue evolved during the top…which was still basically 3 arcs ago. He’s long overdue for a new power up/transformation and giving him UI just like Goku is repetitive and doesn’t add anything to his character/character development to be honest. This new G.O.D form finally puts him on a level that should be comparable to UI Goku or at least give him abilities that can act as counters to what UI gives Goku or any other character that can use ultra instinct.

Trust me Vegeta is my favorite character ever. I want him to thrive, but not in a way that deals more harm to the franchise overall than it does good to himself. You say he's had BLue ince RoF and is due for a new transformation.
I say that concept of him being "due" for a new form is wrong in its self, DB should have now in Super moved away from forms and focused more on techniques. Him getting Hakai powers is good but you could have just added that on to the Blue form. No need to clutter it even more with forms we frankly don't need. The reason for saying UI instead is because that wouldn't clutter anything & UI s a really good martial arts concept.
I get that Toppo had the destroyer form in the T.O.P but you could easily just have and-waived it for Vegeta and said he could just add it on top of BE or smt.

That’s a good point and I completely understand where you’re coming from. Personally, I would have been fine if they added destructive powers to his blue evo form like you suggested. Though I must say that I really do like the new form due to the fact that it’s a godly form but also brings back traits from his primal saiyan past that has been talked about a lot in this arc (the great apes). He’s more muscular, has the prominent brow ridge like ssj3, his hair has lengthened a bit in the back and he has visible pupils which I like a lot. It takes things from other forms while still being unique and that at least is a plus for me. I just hope his hair at least has some purple tint in it but even if it’s just black and his eyes and aura are purple that’s cool too

[Trouser]

Lets just hope that this form never makes it into the anime, like why does Toyo feel the need to do another transformation?? Like what happens to blue now? He should have just stuck with the Blue form..... or if anything give him Ultra Instinct since its an already established form. Why clutter the zeitgeist even more how will this look for new fans.
Dragon Ball Manga isn't really the definitive version for most fans anyway the anime & movies make way better impact, so as they've done before just please stray away from the manga and just add better rewrites to both the Moro stuff & Granolah.

All this might seem very cynical & critical of me, but why settle for lesser media when there so much else good to consume out there. Maybe the movie revealings this friday will set things on a better path, lets hope

Well, Vegeta having some kind of change because of Hakaishin power is a nice idea... The design of the form is just plain bad. Shame it's just... Yet another transformation.

About rewrites of Moro & Granolah... I think it would be for the best to keep Toei writers as far from the original story as possible. We don't need more harm done to the (already weak) series.