Cipher wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:23 pm
HeroR wrote: ↑Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:59 pm
The problem with that thinking is,
it didn’t work for Roshi. He dodged Jiren, but could literally do nothing else before Jiren love tapped him out of the ring. So the lesson remained, ‘technique means crap if you don’t have the power to back it’. Especially with UI being both a form and technique for Goku. So the solution was ‘being stronger than the other guy in a fight’ except it now add auto-dodge. Even with Moro the ultimate solution was being stronger than him since Moro got around Vegeta nerfing him. So this lesson feels extremely shallow.
If you read to the end of the arc, it also doesn’t work for Goku—it helps wear Jiren down, but Jiren still wins because the thrust is that out-martial-artsing your opponent on your own isn’t always true strength either; in this case it’s teamwork with all the selfish weirdos Goku has collected along the way. The arc is constantly building up to that.
Out-martial-artsing is
better than just trying to out-strong, and it makes up enough of a gap that it plays an essential role in victory and makes the teamwork leading up to it (Turtle Hermit and #17 both acting as triggers) essential too, but it’s not all that’s needed, or the correct answer either, in the end.
That and Goku didn’t try to be creative fighting Jiren in the manga. He tried only brute force and more brute force and whined when brute force didn’t work. At least in the anime, Goku did try to outsmart Jiren by beating him via ring out or working with others to overcome Jiren’s power.
It’s almost like it’s a story trying to build to a point within its running space.
A few extra scenes of Goku trying to out-maneuver Jiren might have been neat, but they wouldn’t taken the story to a substantially different place, right? Certainly their absence alone is nowhere near enough to make the Turtle Hermit scene the total failure you’re painting it as—not if it was just one scene of Goku using energy land mines away from working.
You’re also shifting the goalposts on your criticism here—your complaint with the scene was that it “wasn’t who Goku is.” Now it’s that it isn’t what UI (in later arcs) is.
I didn’t move the goalpost so much as pointed out that Roshi’s lesson of technique over power falls short because he had the technique, but lack the power to really do anything against Jiren. And this lesson is further broken by what happened in the following arc.
As for my original point, it still isn’t within Goku’s character to be that power only focused to begin with. Even in the fights you mentioned before, it wasn’t all power like Goku beat Piccolo Jr because he learned to fly, he beat Raditz with teamwork, he overcame Vegeta with teamwork, he nearly killed Cell using a combo (Cell surviving is plot hole since he lost his head therefore his nucleus), Buu was a team effort after Goku tried to solo and failed, Hit was a mixed of force and observation, Black and Zamasu was a team effect and in the manga it was Goku who suggested the Evil Containment Wave, fused with Vegeta, and tried to used a technique to erase Zamasu’s immortality. So up to that point in the TOP, Goku has never been power only. He has always used a mixed of teamwork, technique, and power to win even if he isn’t big on teamwork. So Goku becoming so power obsessed that when Roshi directly asked him what he needed Goku said ‘more power’ is weird when we just came from an arc where Goku couldn’t win physically because of Zamasu’s immortality and he tried to find ways around it.
I also wants to add that while Jiren was indeed overwhelming powerful, it wasn't even the first time Goku want against an overwhelming force, yet Goku in the manga just hit a brick wall about how to deal with Jiren. Going down the list:
Goku was overwhelmed against Raditz and knew good and well he could win physically. So he sat down with his friends and hatched a plan to exploit Radtiz's weakness and was going to go in with Krillin and Roshi before Piccolo stepped in. He was even willing to used the Dragon Balls to beat Radtiz until he realized there was no time.
Vegeta, even while Goku was crippled on the ground, it was his plan that gave Krillin the Spirit Bomb and he took advantage of the fake moon Vegeta created to make Gohan turn into a Great Ape when his tale returned along with guiding Gohan's action when he was a Great Ape to attack Vegeta.
Frieza, realizing that he was screwed against 50% Frieza, he used a technique to try to win. Yeah, 'Spirit Bomb is power', but still a technique.
Cell, trained and guided Gohan to beat Cell and put systems in place in case anyone dies by reviving the Dragon Balls. He even told Gohan why going for pure power wasn't good in the case of Super Saiyan Grades 2 and 3 and it was better to make Super Saiyan better. Gohan getting Super Saiyan 2 was a bonus.
Goku learned a technique that could beat Buu in Fusion despite him having the power to kill Fat Buu. While we may say 'Fusion is just another power up', it's still a technique that you need to learn. And before the Spirit Bomb, Goku wanted to used the Dragon Balls to bring Gohan and Gotenks to help them fight Buu, so he was willing to used a team up situation before Vegeta shot it down.
Battle of Gods, Goku needed Super Saiyan God to appease Beerus if nothing else.
Resurrection 'F', he got on Frieza for focusing on power and revenge so much that he failed to master his ultimate form despite Frieza having the power advantage.
So it's odd that while facing an overwhelming opponent, something he had done several times, Goku couldn't even humor a way to win outside of 'more power' without even trying to go for a ring out. And even went as far as to go against a teamwork solution earlier with Hit because he really wanted to break his ceiling.
