"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Thani]

humor for the few people who would get this.

I hate the fact that this was my first thought when I read that line. Been watching too much AEW. Didn't think anyone else would make that connection.

I thought this was a joke panel? Is this real? It can’t be??

It is.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Except he was taking hits from Vegeta before his second eye awakened and still doing better than Vegeta who started to get blurry eyed. This isn’t the sign of an even match when both fighters are getting hit and one is taking more damage.

And again, Granolah only received physical blows, while Vegeta received a full barrage from most of Granolah's arsenal (including the Hakai head on, which itself already has a higher destructive capability than regular Ki Blasts, which Vegeta also received head on), that's why he started to get blurry eyed. And even after all that, he still received the impact of his Hakai ball and Granolah's attack used at the end of the chapter.

This comparison isn't fair, they didn't take the same amount of damage. The gimmick of Vegeta's new form is specifically about taking damage after all.

And people are once again using tank wrong. Vegeta tanked nothing. All of Granolah‘s are clearly hurting Vegeta to the point he was bleeding. Tanking means taking no damage at all like how Frieza tried to Death Beam Super Saiyan Goku. And Granolah still withstood damage better than Vegeta when they were punching the crap out of each other. Heck, despite Vegeta beating Granolah up for most of the chapter, Vegeta still looks more tired.

So he does need to hit to get stronger. That and UI does more than auto-dodge since it also auto-harden the body.

I think you mean fast enough to hit UI. Being strong and fast are two different things. And it’s hard to say how fast Vegeta is since he went ‘dodging is for suckers’.

To reinforce what I said above (without repeating it all over again), he's obviously going to look more tired when he purposefully takes most of Granolah's attacks head-on. But he clearly had the upper hand while fresh, which is why Granolah freaks out saying he should be the strongest. Even after Vegeta's body approached his limit (at the same time that Granolah's moves became sharper), he still had the advantage in h2h combat. That's why he was surprised when Granolah managed to counter his final attack (after awakening the second eye).

Getting hit is just a way to stir up his battle spirit, which is the catalyst for increasing the power of his form. Anyway, he only needs to receive these hits if he wants the power boost, so it's not like he necessarily needs to eat every single attack. This gimmick turns out to be more useful if he just takes advantage of casual hits he would already receive during the fight to eventually give him the upper hand against the opponent without wasting too much stamina.

[Mr Baggins]

The problem is that UI, more specifically mushin (no thought), is both body and mind. It’s your body learning to fully function on its own by practicing so much that it becomes second nature. Like how you learned to walk, read, or drive a car. You start with the mind and reach the point where it becomes so natural that the mind isn’t needed anymore.

I think you're taking what I said too literally. The point is that the technique focuses on eschewing the mind (choosing id over ego) or as you said yourself, "no thought". If you understand the contextual meanings and puns behind "Migatte" and "Wagamame", and thereby why Goku's technique name emphasizes 身 (body) while Vegeta's emphasizes 我 (mental self), the polarity they're going for seems fairly clear.

Plus, as mentioned, it's just one of several examples. There's also UI being designed to avoid attacks while UE deliberately takes them, UI's calmer design and demeanor vs. UE's frenzied design/demeanor, etc.

[HeroR]

Except he was taking hits from Vegeta before his second eye awakened and still doing better than Vegeta who started to get blurry eyed. This isn’t the sign of an even match when both fighters are getting hit and one is taking more damage.

And again, Granolah only received physical blows, while Vegeta received a full barrage from most of Granolah's arsenal (including the Hakai head on, which itself already has a higher destructive capability than regular Ki Blasts, which Vegeta also received head on), that's why he started to get blurry eyed. And even after all that, he still received the impact of his Hakai ball and Granolah's attack used at the end of the chapter.

This comparison isn't fair, they didn't take the same amount of damage. The gimmick of Vegeta's new form is specifically about taking damage after all.

And people are once again using tank wrong. Vegeta tanked nothing. All of Granolah‘s are clearly hurting Vegeta to the point he was bleeding. Tanking means taking no damage at all like how Frieza tried to Death Beam Super Saiyan Goku. And Granolah still withstood damage better than Vegeta when they were punching the crap out of each other. Heck, despite Vegeta beating Granolah up for most of the chapter, Vegeta still looks more tired.

So he does need to hit to get stronger. That and UI does more than auto-dodge since it also auto-harden the body.

I think you mean fast enough to hit UI. Being strong and fast are two different things. And it’s hard to say how fast Vegeta is since he went ‘dodging is for suckers’.

To reinforce what I said above (without repeating it all over again), he's obviously going to look more tired when he purposefully takes most of Granolah's attacks head-on. But he clearly had the upper hand while fresh, which is why Granolah freaks out saying he should be the strongest. Even after Vegeta's body approached his limit (at the same time that Granolah's moves became sharper), he still had the advantage in h2h combat. That's why he was surprised when Granolah managed to counter his final attack (after awakening the second eye).

Getting hit is just a way to stir up his battle spirit, which is the catalyst for increasing the power of his form. Anyway, he only needs to receive these hits if he wants the power boost, so it's not like he necessarily needs to eat every single attack. This gimmick turns out to be more useful if he just takes advantage of casual hits he would already receive during the fight to eventually give him the upper hand against the opponent without wasting too much stamina.

What big different does that make? Does Granolah only taking physical blows supposed to prove that his endurance is lower because Vegeta took ki attacks too? And Vegeta was seeing double before he got caught in his own Hakai explosion. Even Goku notes that Vegeta's vigor was going down before the Hakai incident.

The only recourse you have to 'they didn't take the same damage' is ki attacks, which I'm not sure if you're trying to say Vegeta took far more damage because he didn't dodge because he was an idiot or that Granolah isn't as durable because he dodged. And that is an issue with Vegeta's form if he needs to get hit but can't take it.

Having the upper hand while fresh doesn't mean much when Granolah didn't take enough damage to get weaker, while Vegeta took so much damage that started to effect his vision and he's the one covered in blood along with losing his armor. In comparison, Granolah got only a few bruises from Vegeta knocking him around. This is like bragging about how Super Trunks had the advantage over Cell for a moment. Or, using the anime version of Goku vs Jiren where Jiren got the advantage for a moment after he unlocked his full power. Yeah, he kicked Goku around for a moment, and then Goku got stronger and kicked Jiren's ass (granted, not a perfect comparison since Goku was the on the losing end since his body exploded so he's similar to Vegeta in that regard).

Vegeta's from what I seen didn't really have an advantage in hand comeback outside of experience, and Vegeta got so desperate he tried a double dare Hakai ball, which is something you don't do if you have the edge.

"Getting hit is just a way to stir up his battle spirit, which is the catalyst for increasing the power of his form"

Sounds more like theory since that isn't really what was said. Rereading, it does seems to depend on Vegeta getting hit which riles him up like anime Black. But it's also obvious that despite all of Vegeta's posturing that he really doesn't understand his new form that well because who in their right mind thinks taking all attacks regardless is a good idea.

The problem is that UI, more specifically mushin (no thought), is both body and mind. It’s your body learning to fully function on its own by practicing so much that it becomes second nature. Like how you learned to walk, read, or drive a car. You start with the mind and reach the point where it becomes so natural that the mind isn’t needed anymore.

I think you're taking what I said too literally. The point is that the technique focuses on eschewing the mind (choosing id over ego) or as you said yourself, "no thought". If you understand the contextual meanings and puns behind "Migatte" and "Wagamame", and thereby why Goku's technique name emphasizes 身 (body) while Vegeta's emphasizes 我 (mental self), the polarity they're going for seems fairly clear.

Plus, as mentioned, it's just one of several examples. There's also UI being designed to avoid attacks while UE deliberately takes them, UI's calmer design and demeanor vs. UE's frenzied design/demeanor, etc.

I know what Vegeta's form means in Japanese, I saw Herm's tweets. Thing is, Vegeta's form isn't really based on mental anything, which is what I'm saying. Going battle lust crazy and not avoiding attacks isn't smart and in any form of combat you're told to avoid doing that. This isn't going primitive, this is going crazy since not even wild animals do this.

That and Goku's technique emphasizes both body and mental state, is what I'm trying to say. UI is a mental state in Dragon Ball that allows your body to move on its own.

[WittyUsername]

‘Ultra Ego’ doesn’t have a very good ring to it.

[Mr Baggins]

That and Goku's technique emphasizes both body and mental state, is what I'm trying to say. UI is a mental state in Dragon Ball that allows your body to move on its own.

I'm not sure if you’re misinterpreting me or what, but we're not talking about mental states. The opposition of mental states in Goku and Vegeta is the whole point.

We're talking about the allocation of resources between body and mind, id and ego. UI and UE each make use of both, but only one is the focus; with UI, it's Goku absent-mindedly making the body avoid obstacles, and with UE, it's Vegeta selfishly allowing his body to take damage to fuel his fighting spirit/mind. Goku still needs some semblance of mind to function and Vegeta needs a body to strengthen, so there's no arguing that the neglected part is completely done away with or anything.

I feel like I'm having to explain an intended polarity that most people seem to understand, so this will be my last post about this.

[picc]

Did it seem to anyone else that Vegeta's power up didn't power him up as much as you thought it would?

Don't get me wrong, obviously he was signficantly stronger. But he was barely losing the fight by the end of last chapter. And this chapter, after his transformation, he was winning, but wasn't doing any damage to Granolah, who was shrugging off his attacks. And Granolah was able to at least compete in the melees.

Seems like a change from the norm, when typically a fighter is getting totally demolished, then gets their transformation, and subsequently fodderizes the opponent.

If Granolah is a 10, Vegeta at the end of last Chapter was maybe an 8. This chapter, he looks like a 13 (before Granolah evened things out).

Where usually, the villain will be a 10, the protag will be a 5, and then be a 15 after their powerup. (numbers just used for context, not meant to be exact).

Not happy or sad about it, just commenting that it doesn't appear as drastic as normal this time, when the nature of the transformation kind of alluded it would be.

[TheSaiyanGod]

What big different does that make? Does Granolah only taking physical blows supposed to prove that his endurance is lower because Vegeta took ki attacks too? And Vegeta was seeing double before he got caught in his own Hakai explosion. Even Goku notes that Vegeta's vigor was going down before the Hakai incident.

The Hakai I mentioned was not the one used by Vegeta, but by Granolah. The Hakai is consistently portrayed in a specific way in the manga when used (the left panel), and we saw Granolah use it on Vegeta during the fight (which, as I said, received the attack head-on). He only got blurry eyed after all of this attacks near the end of the chapter (and later he still received the impact of his own blast too).

Spoiler:

"Getting hit is just a way to stir up his battle spirit, which is the catalyst for increasing the power of his form"
Sounds more like theory since that isn't really what was said. Rereading, it does seems to depend on Vegeta getting hit which riles him up like anime Black. But it's also obvious that despite all of Vegeta's posturing that he really doesn't understand his new form that well because who in their right mind thinks taking all attacks regardless is a good idea.

Vegeta literally says that the more his fighting spirit burns, the stronger he gets. It's Granolah that associates this with battle damage, and Vegeta also uses this trick to increase his strength. But the gimmick isn't specifically about battle damage, it's a mental state like Ultra Instinct (which gets better as the user gets deeper into the technique). Vegeta taking damage and getting stronger is just a boost on top of the strength he already possesses with the transformation, which is why he was effortlessly stomping Granolah in the beginning. He doesn't depend on this battle damage to keep his form, it's just a plus. He just used it in a careless way.

It's no different from how UI Goku is already strong on top of his dodge skills

The rest of the post is pretty much the same thing that was already discussed

[HeroR]

What big different does that make? Does Granolah only taking physical blows supposed to prove that his endurance is lower because Vegeta took ki attacks too? And Vegeta was seeing double before he got caught in his own Hakai explosion. Even Goku notes that Vegeta's vigor was going down before the Hakai incident.

The Hakai I mentioned was not the one used by Vegeta, but by Granolah. The Hakai is consistently portrayed in a specific way in the manga when used (the left panel), and we saw Granolah use it on Vegeta during the fight (which, as I said, received the attack head-on). He only got blurry eyed after all of this attacks near the end of the chapter (and later he still received the impact of his own blast too).

Spoiler:

"Getting hit is just a way to stir up his battle spirit, which is the catalyst for increasing the power of his form"
Sounds more like theory since that isn't really what was said. Rereading, it does seems to depend on Vegeta getting hit which riles him up like anime Black. But it's also obvious that despite all of Vegeta's posturing that he really doesn't understand his new form that well because who in their right mind thinks taking all attacks regardless is a good idea.

Vegeta literally says that the more his fighting spirit burns, the stronger he gets. It's Granolah that associates this with battle damage, and Vegeta also uses this trick to increase his strength. But the gimmick isn't specifically about battle damage, it's a mental state like Ultra Instinct (which gets better as the user gets deeper into the technique). Vegeta taking damage and getting stronger is just a boost on top of the strength he already possesses with the transformation, which is why he was effortlessly stomping Granolah in the beginning. He doesn't depend on this battle damage to keep his form, it's just a plus. He just used it in a careless way.

It's no different from how UI Goku is already strong on top of his dodge skills

The rest of the post is pretty much the same thing that was already discussed

As far as I'm aware, it was never said Granolah knows Hakai. And if he was, why didn't Vegeta say anything about it?

The point of the blurry vision was that Vegeta started to get tired while Granolah was still going strong and show no signs of slowing down despite all the damage he took.

"Vegeta literally says that the more his fighting spirit burns, the stronger he gets."

Which Vegeta translated to getting hit a lot. Vegeta more or less confirmed this when Granolah asked why wasn't he dodging and Vegeta saying he took too much damage. While Vegeta may not need to be 'battle damage' to get stronger, Vegeta was purposely letting himself get hit to raise his battle spirit. And I wouldn't call it 'effortlessly stomping' when Granolah's attacks were still doing enough damage to make Vegeta bleed while Vegeta's attacks were honestly not doing that much damage in comparison.

Not really the same thing since we're comparing getting hit to dodge, which anyone can get hit.

That and Goku's technique emphasizes both body and mental state, is what I'm trying to say. UI is a mental state in Dragon Ball that allows your body to move on its own.

I'm not sure if you’re misinterpreting me or what, but we're not talking about mental states. The opposition of mental states in Goku and Vegeta is the whole point.

We're talking about the allocation of resources between body and mind, id and ego. UI and UE each make use of both, but only one is the focus; with UI, it's Goku absent-mindedly making the body avoid obstacles, and with UE, it's Vegeta selfishly allowing his body to take damage to fuel his fighting spirit/mind. Goku still needs some semblance of mind to function and Vegeta needs a body to strengthen, so there's no arguing that the neglected part is completely done away with or anything.

I feel like I'm having to explain an intended polarity that most people seem to understand, so this will be my last post about this.

UI isn't so much about being 'absent-minded' so much as being in the zone. Like, you wouldn't call someone walking down the street as someone being absent-minded unless they're were doing something else while walking.

Vegeta being more 'mind' doesn't really gel with how UE is presented because any idiot can be hit and it comes off as a amp version of what Black did in the anime. Take a bunch of hits and get stronger.

[BWri]

humor for the few people who would get this.

I hate the fact that this was my first thought when I read that line. Been watching too much AEW. Didn't think anyone else would make that connection.

I thought this was a joke panel? Is this real? It can’t be??

It likely sounds much better in the native language. Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego are just not as dynamic as the original Japanese terms.

[TheSaiyanGod]

As far as I'm aware, it was never said Granolah knows Hakai. And if he was, why didn't Vegeta say anything about it?

After Granolah blew up a mountain, Vegeta mentions that this technique was similar to Hakai, and Goku tells Vegeta that Granolah knows how to use their techniques (after he uses the ''faster than Instant Transmission'' thing and the Hakai)

Spoiler:

And after Vegeta uses Hakai on some rocks at the beginning of his fight, Granolah mentions that he was trying to make up for the lack of destructive power with quantity, and then gives a demonstration of something stronger (the same technique Vegeta used).

Spoiler:

Granolah also turns a rock into dust when he fights the Heeters after obtaining his new power, and this makes Macki wonder if it was magic (Beerus did the same thing to Zamasu)

Spoiler:

Since the beginning of this arc, this is how the Hakai has been portrayed on panel, it's pretty clear that he used it in the latest chapter

The point of the blurry vision was that Vegeta started to get tired while Granolah was still going strong and show no signs of slowing down despite all the damage he took.

"Vegeta literally says that the more his fighting spirit burns, the stronger he gets."

Which Vegeta translated to getting hit a lot. Vegeta more or less confirmed this when Granolah asked why wasn't he dodging and Vegeta saying he took too much damage. While Vegeta may not need to be 'battle damage' to get stronger, Vegeta was purposely letting himself get hit to raise his battle spirit. And I wouldn't call it 'effortlessly stomping' when Granolah's attacks were still doing enough damage to make Vegeta bleed while Vegeta's attacks were honestly not doing that much damage in comparison.

Vegeta got blurry eyed because he purposely received tons of attacks, more than Granolah, to try to stir up his battle spirit, which was his mistake because he miscalculated the amount of damaged. Again, this has already been discussed

The point I'm making (and I think that's what you were trying to imply) is that it's not mandatory for Vegeta to take this damage to maintain the transformation or mindset needed to use it or something like that. It just gives him a boost on top of the strength he already gets in this form, it's a plus, it's a skill like Ultra Instinct's auto dodge skills. He was the one who caused this excessive amount of damage because he was careless, he didn't really need it.

And what I'm also arguing is that mechanically, what causes the power boost is to stir up his fighting spirit. Taking damage is only one way.

[Skar]

You guys think Toriyama came up with Vegeta's new "Ultra Ego" form? Both versions of the ToP implied Vegeta would go a different route than UI so I'm thinking it was Toriyama's idea but could be something Toei or Toyotaro came up with then Toyotaro decided to explore it later. I guess it depends how detailed Toriyama'a outline was for this arc.

[Cipher]

You guys think Toriyama came up with Vegeta's new "Ultra Ego" form? Both versions of the ToP implied Vegeta would go a different route than UI so I'm thinking it was Toriyama's idea but could be something Toei or Toyotaro came up with then Toyotaro decided to explore it later. I guess it depends how detailed Toriyama'a outline was for this arc.

While both versions of the ToP featured Vegeta going his own route in comparison to Ultra Instinct, the difference between them leads me to think it probably wasn't a Toriyama suggestion, which then leads me to believe these follow-ups likely aren't either, especially since this is drawing from the probably-not-primarily-Toriyama Moro arc developments for Vegeta.

Kind of immaterial since it's part of the final story he's approving and overseeing either way, but if I had to make an educated guess, I'd say the seeds of this probably came form Toyotaro.

Also, elements included in Toriyama’s outline this time could always include things that were originally Toyotaro ideas, since the initial pitch came from him. It’s all a big jumble at this point (and, as I recently talked about with Mike on the Kanzenshuu podcast, to some extent always has been).

[DiscountDabi]

I don't think Granolah is stronger than Vegeta. He and Vegeta seem to be equal in power. In the end with the Second Eye Granolah had the better vision and blew up Vegeta's how attack in his face. So Basically Granolah Just outskilled him.

There may be hope for Vegeta yet.

As it stands right now I give it 4 chapters before Goku Comes Back and Wins.

[Tai Lung]

A good episode in choreography but nothing else happens to comment ....
Vegeta is going to lose ... the vegefans should give up hope

You guys think Toriyama came up with Vegeta's new "Ultra Ego" form? Both versions of the ToP implied Vegeta would go a different route than UI so I'm thinking it was Toriyama's idea but could be something Toei or Toyotaro came up with then Toyotaro decided to explore it later. I guess it depends how detailed Toriyama'a outline was for this arc.

basically they got it from Toppo hakaishin in the TOP

[prince212]

something weird, the english name is Ultra Ego but the spanish is Mega instinto( Mega Instinct), as a spanish speaker I like the spanish name a little better but as someone that consumes all media in english I will hear/use Ultra Ego more often.

It might sound better , but it has less sense , Spanish translation having instinct word as U.I is totally opposite to the root of vegetas new form to be antagonist with gokus ..
Instinct vs ego work amazingly good I.m.o .

Enjoying this arc , not expecting granola to be the enemy , he’s a good guy and I bet at the end of the arc they’ll try to broke the dragon ball wish he made so he can live longer in exchange to be weaker again ...
Regarding what a bunch of people said about the monthly pacing ... agree but all change once you have all the volumes of the arc in your hands .. just Waiting For Christmas when next English vol. will be release to do the whole Moro arc reading all together..... sucks but at the same time the time passed makes it a renew re read

[UpFromTheSkies]

Vegeta could still win, he hasn't even used his senzu yet and he should get a massive zenkai after healing from all that damage. He may also be in an omen form of ultra ego, mastered ultra ego could be next.

[omaro34]

Once again, Vegeta gets a new form, gets cocky with this new “ultra ego” nonsense, then by the end of the chapter he’s getting rekt.

Funny haha

[HeroR]

As far as I'm aware, it was never said Granolah knows Hakai. And if he was, why didn't Vegeta say anything about it?

After Granolah blew up a mountain, Vegeta mentions that this technique was similar to Hakai, and Goku tells Vegeta that Granolah knows how to use their techniques (after he uses the ''faster than Instant Transmission'' thing and the Hakai)

Spoiler:

And after Vegeta uses Hakai on some rocks at the beginning of his fight, Granolah mentions that he was trying to make up for the lack of destructive power with quantity, and then gives a demonstration of something stronger (the same technique Vegeta used).

Spoiler:

Granolah also turns a rock into dust when he fights the Heeters after obtaining his new power, and this makes Macki wonder if it was magic (Beerus did the same thing to Zamasu)

Spoiler:

Since the beginning of this arc, this is how the Hakai has been portrayed on panel, it's pretty clear that he used it in the latest chapter

The point of the blurry vision was that Vegeta started to get tired while Granolah was still going strong and show no signs of slowing down despite all the damage he took.

"Vegeta literally says that the more his fighting spirit burns, the stronger he gets."

Which Vegeta translated to getting hit a lot. Vegeta more or less confirmed this when Granolah asked why wasn't he dodging and Vegeta saying he took too much damage. While Vegeta may not need to be 'battle damage' to get stronger, Vegeta was purposely letting himself get hit to raise his battle spirit. And I wouldn't call it 'effortlessly stomping' when Granolah's attacks were still doing enough damage to make Vegeta bleed while Vegeta's attacks were honestly not doing that much damage in comparison.

Vegeta got blurry eyed because he purposely received tons of attacks, more than Granolah, to try to stir up his battle spirit, which was his mistake because he miscalculated the amount of damaged. Again, this has already been discussed

The point I'm making (and I think that's what you were trying to imply) is that it's not mandatory for Vegeta to take this damage to maintain the transformation or mindset needed to use it or something like that. It just gives him a boost on top of the strength he already gets in this form, it's a plus, it's a skill like Ultra Instinct's auto dodge skills. He was the one who caused this excessive amount of damage because he was careless, he didn't really need it.

And what I'm also arguing is that mechanically, what causes the power boost is to stir up his fighting spirit. Taking damage is only one way.

I am not so sure that is Hakai since Granolah didn't even know what a God of Destruction even was, but a move that is similar. Unless he's doing what Goku did in the Future Trunks Saga and using a bootleg version.

From what I have read, Granolah still took a ton of attacks himself from Vegeta and is still barely damage despite people insisting that Vegeta was stronger. And if Vegeta was stronger, he should have been able to do more damage to Granolah in less hits. That and it's funny that Vegeta miscalculated how much damage he was taking when he's literally leaking blood while Granolah isn't.

We actually don't know if damage is mandatory or Vegeta just needs to get hit. Maybe it is just a hit, but it's kinda moot when Granolah hits so hard that Vegeta bleeds and his armor cracks like an egg. We also don't know how strong this form is by default since Vegeta allow Granolah to smack him before he get to see the base of the form. That and it really isn't the same in that UI isn't just auto-dodge, but it allows all of Goku's strike to be more punishing since he's countering perfectly and even hardens his body when attacked (if Toyo didn't retcon that when he nerfed the form). Vegeta's new form would honestly benefit a lot from hardening his body so he can take damage without being turned into a bloody mess.

Could be more than one way, but we honestly don't know at this point. Maybe Vegeta just needs to trash talk to hype himself up so he isn't depended on his opponent's actions.

[HeroR]

You guys think Toriyama came up with Vegeta's new "Ultra Ego" form? Both versions of the ToP implied Vegeta would go a different route than UI so I'm thinking it was Toriyama's idea but could be something Toei or Toyotaro came up with then Toyotaro decided to explore it later. I guess it depends how detailed Toriyama'a outline was for this arc.

Not sure what Toei was brought up since they have nothing to do with the manga. As for it this was Toriyama, I'm going to side with no. This form got as much buildup as the Toyo and Toei created forms like Completed Blue, Rage Trunks, and SSBE Vegeta. Compared those forms to the hype UI got. Even Blue was giving a bunch of toys before Resurrection 'F' came out. I can't imagine a Toriyama new form getting literally nothing even if it was manga only.

That and the design doesn't look modern Toriyama to me. He far more into subtly and elegant by the way he made Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, Golden Frieza, and UI. I can see Toriyama giving Toyo the idea, but Toyo designing it like the Heeters.

Finally, it's odd for Toriyama to make a new form for Vegeta and Heroes not using it, instead giving Vegeta their own take of a new form.

A good episode in choreography but nothing else happens to comment ....
Vegeta is going to lose ... the vegefans should give up hope

You guys think Toriyama came up with Vegeta's new "Ultra Ego" form? Both versions of the ToP implied Vegeta would go a different route than UI so I'm thinking it was Toriyama's idea but could be something Toei or Toyotaro came up with then Toyotaro decided to explore it later. I guess it depends how detailed Toriyama'a outline was for this arc.

basically they got it from Toppo hakaishin in the TOP

I would say Toyo was inspired by God of Destruction Toppo, but the forms aren't really the same. Like Vegeta doesn't make a Hakai shield nor did Vegeta needed to give up who he was.